Jump to content
decbell1

Seeding Meeting Change???

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, jason said:

Really 16 forfeits..thats highly unlikely..who comes.up with this b.s....i mean really...stay out of our meetings.already

The example I gave isn’t fictional, at least the part about the 16 forfeits.  

If anyone gets “penalized” at a seed meeting it’s the kid who wrestles the toughest schedule.  It’s not like the kid with all the forfeits has to sit the tournament out, he just won’t be seeded based off of his forfeits alone.

If one criteria to separate kids is winning percentage, it seems logical that strength of schedule should play a part.  While it is diffficult to measure strength of schedule, it is easy to see and count forfeits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This will be hard to police for opposing coaches.  There is no way they’ll be able to check the other wrestlers’ records in any given weight class, correct?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Numchuck Skills said:

How do you expect to get to sectionals without forfeits?

 

Mom wants to know

tell your mom hi for me....

also tell your mom to smack her son...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if taking out the forfeits causes a kid to not have 10 matches?  The way it's worded, a kid that's 10-0 with 1 forfeit would only have 9 matches that count toward seeding and not be eligible to get a seed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fearless fly said:

tell your mom hi for me....

also tell your mom to smack her son...

My mom was mad about all the forfeits I had....

She says hi, but is not quick enough to smack kevin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GrecoCoach said:

What if taking out the forfeits causes a kid to not have 10 matches?  The way it's worded, a kid that's 10-0 with 1 forfeit would only have 9 matches that count toward seeding and not be eligible to get a seed.

Forfeits will not allow a wrestler with 10 matches to go unseeded. If they have 10 matches, including forfeits, they can be seeded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion - this is just another example of oligarchy of the wrestling coaches association. They claim to want what's BEST for the sport, want to GROW the support - but in reality, they are "looking out" for a select few "powerhouse" schools. Actually, I don't want to throw stones and have my first post seem to be painting a "conspiracy" theory...however the past few decisions that have been passed down from the IHSAA - which says these decisions come from the recommendation of the Coaches Associations - seem to be pointed towards "big" programs with no thoughts of the "little guy."  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is going to hurt kids looking to be seeded 3-6 in the sectional. Those are going to be the ones that hover around the .500 mark. A kid that is 14-11 and has 4 forfeits is going to be thrown into the hopper to possibly draw the #1 seed in a rat tail match unless he can find a common opponent or head to head win. Per some quick calculations I did on my team and another sectional team, both average just over 3 forfeits per varsity kid.

And now how do we work into account a team that forfeits when they have an able bodied opponent? We had a sectional team forfeit to us 4 times, three of those guys wrestled the round previous. Now my kids are going to be punished at the seeding meeting because they didn't get a match?

This is going to have some ugly long term effects if this stays this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

while not an officer of the coaches association for 4 years now, I do know where the rule came from:

Head to head and common opponents still count - so if you have a losing record because your forfeits are gone, but you have a common or a head to head you still trump the person record - forfeits don't matter in that scenerio anyway. 

previously a kid that was 16-15 with ten forfeits, could be over a kid that was 14-15 with no forfeits.  It didn't decide the better wrestler, but the person that didn't wrestle the most was assumed better.

This rule was passed two years ago, and was in use last year (whether schools used it or not)

Small schools and medium schools and large schools were in the meeting that changed the criteria.  

The purpose of the seeding meeting is to seperate the best wrestlers.  The forfeit was taken out so that only actual wrestled matches seperate the wrestlers. 

Forfeits don't show who the  better wrestler is. 

The purpose of the rule is to discourage forfeits   - push to recruit, bump kids to wrestle actual matches instead of wrestling a dual where nobody matches up.   

despite opinion - the people in the room that made the rule had pushing wrestling actual matches as their goal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

This is going to hurt kids looking to be seeded 3-6 in the sectional. Those are going to be the ones that hover around the .500 mark. A kid that is 14-11 and has 4 forfeits is going to be thrown into the hopper to possibly draw the #1 seed in a rat tail match unless he can find a common opponent or head to head win. Per some quick calculations I did on my team and another sectional team, both average just over 3 forfeits per varsity kid.

And now how do we work into account a team that forfeits when they have an able bodied opponent? We had a sectional team forfeit to us 4 times, three of those guys wrestled the round previous. Now my kids are going to be punished at the seeding meeting because they didn't get a match?

This is going to have some ugly long term effects if this stays this way.

I agree that this mostly hurts the kids below the 1st and 2nd seed. For the most part, your really good kids hit one of the first 4 criteria and are accounted for correctly.  This hurts everyone else.  The only thing this addresses is when a wrestler has multiple FF on their record that put their % above someone else's and no other criteria to separate them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Per some quick calculations I did on my team and another sectional team, both average just over 3 forfeits per varsity kid.

Currently, our team averages 3.6 forfeits per varsity wrestler.  

We have wrestled a team this year with 2 kids on it and a team with 3 kids....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, dstruck said:

The purpose of the rule is to discourage forfeits   - push to recruit, bump kids to wrestle actual matches instead of wrestling a dual where nobody matches up.   

despite opinion - the people in the room that made the rule had pushing wrestling actual matches as their goal

The coaches association should first address the issue with RANDOMLY drawing the pigtail matches and have those automatically placed with the unseeded wrestlers first and then to the 6th and 5th seeds.

The basis for this rule were the exceptions of kids with 10+ forfeits stealing seeds. My guess is there are way more kids that hover around .500 and have 3-5 forfeits and are hurt by this than the 10+ forfeit guys getting seeds.

Now I have a kid that is around the .500 mark, dropped weight classes and has no commons or head to heads due to a later drop per the weight loss plan. He could be in the mix to go to regional. Now he has a possibility of drawing the top seed right off the bat and going home early.

Great job guys! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, NSego said:

Currently, our team averages 3.6 forfeits per varsity wrestler.  

We have wrestled a team this year with 2 kids on it and a team with 3 kids....

Some schools are throwing small schools a bone and keeping them on their schedules with the hope to keep their wrestling programs alive. By wrestling a team with a bunch of open weights, it hurts a school. I can see programs not being able to get duals and dying because of this. This is BAD for wrestling.

And Danny,.... Sometimes a forfeit does show who the better wrestler is when you have coaches unwilling to send kids out against better kids. Coaches need to start coaching those kids up and put them on the mat. I see this way too much.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Some schools are throwing small schools a bone and keeping them on their schedules with the hope to keep their wrestling programs alive. By wrestling a team with a bunch of open weights, it hurts a school. I can see programs not being able to get duals and dying because of this. This is BAD for wrestling.

Bingo

10 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

And Danny,.... Sometimes a forfeit does show who the better wrestler is when you have coaches unwilling to send kids out against better kids. Coaches need to start coaching those kids up and put them on the mat. I see this way too much.  

Bingo X2!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In no way does this encourage a coach to send a kid out to wrestle if they have any doubts. If a kid is just recovering from sickness or injury, girlfriend broke up with him, dog died, or whatever. If there is any doubt and the team score is out of hand a coach won't send their kid out because it doesn't change anything. The other team gets 6 points, the other kid doesn't get to use the win, and your kid doesn't get a loss on his record.

This will encourage more forfeits against good wrestlers also as if they are going to give up 6 points, why not give up 6 points and not have their win count.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The coaches association should first address the issue with RANDOMLY drawing the pigtail matches and have those automatically placed with the unseeded wrestlers first and then to the 6th and 5th seeds.

The basis for this rule were the exceptions of kids with 10+ forfeits stealing seeds. My guess is there are way more kids that hover around .500 and have 3-5 forfeits and are hurt by this than the 10+ forfeit guys getting seeds.

Now I have a kid that is around the .500 mark, dropped weight classes and has no commons or head to heads due to a later drop per the weight loss plan. He could be in the mix to go to regional. Now he has a possibility of drawing the top seed right off the bat and going home early.

Great job guys! 

The random drawing of rat tails was discussed, and agreed upon by the coaches.  I was under the impression that the new rules would have that wording put in. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

In no way does this encourage a coach to send a kid out to wrestle if they have any doubts. If a kid is just recovering from sickness or injury, girlfriend broke up with him, dog died, or whatever. If there is any doubt and the team score is out of hand a coach won't send their kid out because it doesn't change anything. The other team gets 6 points, the other kid doesn't get to use the win, and your kid doesn't get a loss on his record.

This will encourage more forfeits against good wrestlers also as if they are going to give up 6 points, why not give up 6 points and not have their win count.

This logic is crazy..... So you are saying, you will forfeit any matches in which you don't have a chance to win if the team score is no longer in doubt?

This rule does not punish all kids in the 3-6th seed range.  How could a rule about seeding wrestlers possibly punish all the wrestlers?

The only kid that is negatively effected by this is the kid that previously was getting unwarrented seeds based on an inflated record due to forfeits.

It's not like the rule counts forfeits in winning percentage for one wrestler but doesn't count them for another wrestler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, buscowrestling said:

The random drawing of rat tails was discussed, and agreed upon by the coaches.  I was under the impression that the new rules would have that wording put in. 

 

Coaches actually agreed to the random drawing of the rat tail matches??????  What this agreement a slim majority or an overwhelming majority??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How will this be enforced? Broadcast sports among others mentioned a few weeks back that many schools are forgeting, to busy or for whatever the reason not inputting results here or let alone track wrestling. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

This logic is crazy..... So you are saying, you will forfeit any matches in which you don't have a chance to win if the team score is no longer in doubt?

This rule does not punish all kids in the 3-6th seed range.  How could a rule about seeding wrestlers possibly punish all the wrestlers?

The only kid that is negatively effected by this is the kid that previously was getting unwarrented seeds based on an inflated record due to forfeits.

It's not like the rule counts forfeits in winning percentage for one wrestler but doesn't count them for another wrestler.

With knowing that the match doesn't help the other kid other than for school record keeping then yes forfeiting to a superior wrestler could and will happen more than it has ever happened. 

Even if the team score isn't in question it will be easier to forfeit if you know the kid winning gains NOTHING.

The #3-6 seeds will be affected greatly. I have pretty up to date records of almost everyone in our sectional and here are the numbers of potential seeds that are within 3 matches of .500. If they can't find a common or head to head then they are going to be thrown into the hopper and could draw a top seed in a win or go home match.

106- 2 
113- 0
120- 0
126- 3
132- 3
138- 4
145- 3
152- 1
160- 2
170- 3
182- 2
195- 2
220- 1
285- 5

Most sectionals will have kids that are 3-6 seeds that are within 5 matches of .500. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If one of the kids are going to be drawn in, wouldn't you rather have the kid who didn't win a higher number of matches wrestled be the kid that is drawn in.

Why should the better kid who has beat more wrestlers be penalized because his opponent didn't wrestle anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×