Jones v. Farmer - 3rd Takedown

[uncle bernard]

Easily the worst call of the tournament and up there for one of the worst I've ever seen at any level. What are we doing here? That's embarrassing and unacceptable on this stage. How does his assistant not overturn it when they discuss? Two officials are that incompetent?

 

Honest question, how are officials chosen for this event? Is it based on merit or seniority? 

[BrodyHardcastle]

51 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Easily the worst call of the tournament and up there for one of the worst I've ever seen at any level. What are we doing here? That's embarrassing and unacceptable on this stage. How does his assistant not overturn it when they discuss? Two officials are that incompetent?

 

Honest question, how are officials chosen for this event? Is it based on merit or seniority? 

I said the same thing I was shocked they stood with the call, luckily it didn’t affect the match but if it did 

Edited February 19, 2023 by bigballerb

[Steve Smith]

4 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Easily the worst call of the tournament and up there for one of the worst I've ever seen at any level. What are we doing here? That's embarrassing and unacceptable on this stage. How does his assistant not overturn it when they discuss? Two officials are that incompetent?

 

Honest question, how are officials chosen for this event? Is it based on merit or seniority? 

Compare with the call from the semis with Paul Clark when Jones had both hands on the mat near the end of period 2 and no takedown was awarded.

[Cameron10483]

The 2 near fall vs Ashton was easily the worst call of the tournament and it isn’t close. He awarded 2, never counted then held up 2 near fall as Jackson bellied down. 

[Rugger44]

Seems like 2 of the older refs made all the bad calls. Wish they would let. Chris Davis should be officiating at state for sure. 

[Coach Brobst]

1 hour ago, Cameron10483 said:

The 2 near fall vs Ashton was easily the worst call of the tournament and it isn’t close. He awarded 2, never counted then held up 2 near fall as Jackson bellied down. 

Go back and watch, he definitely swiped.

I’ll agree they were fast but Jimmy is consistently fast with back points. 
 

Not saying I agree with the call, but he definitely swiped.

[Grenadier2012]

Inconsistencies in the way stalling was called on top and assistant officials seemingly being spectators instead of following their roles were the biggest issues I saw, but overall it wasn't the worst I've ever seen. One that stood out in a good way for me was #6 (Joshua Howard). Good command presence, consistent on calls, in good positions, good anticipation of the action. 

 

It's a thankless job and we desperately need officials. Hopefully we get some talented wrestlers coming up who understand the nuances of scrambling and awkward positions to start reffing. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Grenadier2012

[rookie78]

Even in big time matches, mistakes can be made.  Humans are human.

[RAJR]

Agree, Maybe I watch too much college wrestling, but the out of bounds calls seemed very inconsistent. Anyone know if there was some discussion on this regarding the mat layout or something? I liked the new layout, just thought some of the calls were incorrect with my understanding of the rule. 

 

As stated, a tough job and overall thought the refs did a nice job!

[aoberlin]

From what I heard the head ref does not have to listen to what the assistant ref says he saw and that may have been the case in this instance. 

 

[Disco]

This ,and these things will always be part of wrestling. Replacing and bringing in new refs will not solve anything. It is prevalent in college as well as high school. Just part of the sport. Heartbreaking as it can be for one of the participants in a match for missed calls or wrong calls, it will never stop. 

[Grenadier2012]

7 minutes ago, Disco said:

This ,and these things will always be part of wrestling. Replacing and bringing in new refs will not solve anything. It is prevalent in college as well as high school. Just part of the sport. Heartbreaking as it can be for one of the participants in a match for missed calls or wrong calls, it will never stop. 

Bringing in new refs will help solve the officiating shortage, which is more what the second part of the post was about.

 

And agree to disagree that it wouldn't diminish frustrating calls in some situations. No way to quantify that, but wrestling has changed so much in the past 15 ish years, and continues to, that you can't convince me kids who wrestle today wouldn't understand those positions compared to those who wrestled in the late 70's. I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone from that era. We have a lot of great officials from then, but times change and we need fresh blood was my biggest point.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Grenadier2012

[SWINfan]

I can't speak to any particular referees, match, etc.  I've never refereed a wrestling match.  But I did used to umpire baseball games (HS and college), so I have some insight as to possibilities.

Often times officials working together don't know each other or at least haven't worked with each other a lot.  Add to that differences in personalities and you can get an interesting mix when a decision needs to be reviewed/potentially changed.  
-One official may have a more dominant personality, therefore dominate such conversations or the 2nd might be a little hesitant to offer a dissenting opinion.
- One official may be completely sure of him/herself (even when they shoudn't be) and not open minded to overturning a call, believing they are right.
- The fact the conversations are had in close proximity to those competing and people can read lips/hear would by nature keep the conversations short.  That in itself could limit discussion.
- A Senior Official paired with a newer official at that level could add to the above.

None of that is an excuse, just a look into possible interpersonal dynamics that could cloud a situation.

I had a situation in baseball where the home plate umpire I was working with messed up a call.  After getting yelled at by the home coach, he came out to me and asked me.  I was honest and told him what I thought but added that I was way too far away and didn't have the angle to say so 100%.  He then turned around and changed the call, hanging me out to dry.  The visiting coach then came out and screamed in my face for 5 minutes while the home plate umpire sauntered back to the plate and let it happen.  I was so pissed.  I chose to never work with him again, when I could help it.  But in baseball, you don't always know who you're working with until you show up for the game. Anyway, I'm rambling now. Just a thought or two....

 

[jonah7474]

2 hours ago, aoberlin said:

From what I heard the head ref does not have to listen to what the assistant ref says he saw and that may have been the case in this instance. 

 

You are correct… the head ref doesn’t have to listen to the assistant. The assistant also is told not to point out errors. They are only there if someone raises a question but ultimately, the head ref is the ultimate decision maker… right or wrong.

[Ahawkeye]

Guys, I'm not an official, but try to imagine reffing that many matches a day. You will miss calls you will get calls wrong. Last week we had wrestle offs for my grade school team. We had 9 matches and I reffed every one of them. I made mistakes, I'm telling you that job is a whole lot harder than it looks. Those guys out there make it look EASY until they mis a call or make a call you disagree with. I understand the frustration but try it for yourself and see how you do. Go ask to ref a Folkstyle tournament, you will see that reffing from your butt with popcorn and soda is a whole lot different than being down there and trying to get in good positions to see AND know all the rules AND get it all right. 

[uncle bernard]

Everybody understands officials are going to make mistakes. This is beyond that. I would be concerned if a first day official at a kids event missed that call. Go back and watch it. I think the Jackson nearfall was bad, but this is in an entirely different stratosphere. 

[BrodyHardcastle]

11 hours ago, Grenadier2012 said:

Inconsistencies in the way stalling was called on top and assistant officials seemingly being spectators instead of following their roles were the biggest issues I saw, but overall it wasn't the worst I've ever seen. One that stood out in a good way for me was #6 (Joshua Howard). Good command presence, consistent on calls, in good positions, good anticipation of the action. 

 

It's a thankless job and we desperately need officials. Hopefully we get some talented wrestlers coming up who understand the nuances of scrambling and awkward positions to start reffing. 

I agree, Josh is one of our top officials imo.

[Jmatheney]

20 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Easily the worst call of the tournament and up there for one of the worst I've ever seen at any level. What are we doing here? That's embarrassing and unacceptable on this stage. How does his assistant not overturn it when they discuss? Two officials are that incompetent?

 

Honest question, how are officials chosen for this event? Is it based on merit or seniority? 

One thing you have to think about also is, what questions do the coaches ask when they approach the table. He could have came to the table and asked if the call was made after time expired instead of if it was a takedown or not. And asked the official to confer with the assistant. So he’s just going to ask the assistant about the timing of the call and not the actual call itself. Which is what it kinda looked like when the official pointed to his wrist while talking with the coach. (All officials wore watches that allow them to feel when time has expired). Just another way of looking at it. 
 

by the way, I agree it was not a takedown. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Jmatheney

[Justin Ratliff]

What about when a wrestler is on top, instantly dropped to the leg and is dragged across the mat on his belly by the other wrestler trying to get away?  Is that not stalling?  

[casualwrestlingfan]

Instant replay for finals only? Have the ref, assistant ref, and then ultimately a mat chairman determine the call from replay?

[SIACfan]

22 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Honest question, how are officials chosen for this event? Is it based on merit or seniority? 

 

Both. In Indiana there is a rating system that takes into account both experience & merit.

 

One of the problems with the rating system though is that the officials are rated by the schools (coaches & AD's). I can tell you that coaches are most definitely not the best judge of officials. And I don't mean to bash coaches by that statement. But coaches judge calls from a biased point of view. On instances that lie on the fringes of the rules, coaches are always going interpret the rules in a way that benefits their athlete &/or team. Plus, you may have an excellent Official who makes a bad call that is costly to a certain team (even the best Officials make bad calls at times). That school is likely to rate this particular Official badly for years because of one bad call.

 

Officials are best judged by other officials. This is most definitely true whether you want to believe it or not.

 

[rrschott]

3 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

Officials are best judged by other officials. This is most definitely true whether you want to believe it or not.

 

While this is true, it's also tough to have that with volunteer officials when so many matches/tournaments only have a single official until you get to the finals.  The schools/coaches are the only ones that are guaranteed to be watching, and I would think the "bad" rating from one school would be somewhat cancelled by a "good" rating from the other that benefited from a specific call.

[curt1812]

 

The way it works…..as the assistant official, you should be calling the match in your head as if you were the head official.  If there is a call in which the coach takes the HEAD official to the table, then the HEAD official is to have a short conference with the assistant  official away from the wrestlers and the coaches.  If the assistant official does NOT agree with the HEAD official he can voice his interpretation of that situation at that time.  
 

Ultimately, the HEAD official has the final authority.
 

And I can tell you that the assistant official in this particular match told the HEAD official that it was NOT!!!!! A takedown. Please don’t blame the assistant, who I think is one of the best officials in the state in reference to this call.

Edited February 20, 2023 by curt1812

[SIACfan]

3 hours ago, rrschott said:

While this is true, it's also tough to have that with volunteer officials when so many matches/tournaments only have a single official until you get to the finals.  The schools/coaches are the only ones that are guaranteed to be watching, and I would think the "bad" rating from one school would be somewhat cancelled by a "good" rating from the other that benefited from a specific call.

 

First, yes it would not be easy to have Officials being rated by other Officials. There would be other inherent issues with that.

 

But, a bad rating being cancelled out by a good one is not a given. A school may feel fortunate that they were the beneficiary of a bad call, but that won't necessarily mean they will think that this individual is a good Official & thus give them a good rating.

[Ahawkeye]

6 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

Everybody understands officials are going to make mistakes. This is beyond that. I would be concerned if a first day official at a kids event missed that call. Go back and watch it. I think the Jackson nearfall was bad, but this is in an entirely different stratosphere. 

Bad call I agree but again I say throw a zebra shirt on and show you can do better. It isn't easy, I was pulling for Farmer even though it was a long shot. I think the ref was out of position on that call unfortunately.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Ahawkeye