Jones v. Farmer - 3rd Takedown

[HWTDAD]

4 hours ago, Tobin Fortune said:

I think you are referring to Austin Vanover's ticket match. Let's just say Greg argued successfully and Owen Valley didn't even go to the scorers table to object.  Schaefer in your corner is 2 points.

 

[Wrestling Scholar]

33 minutes ago, HWTDAD said:

 

So you're saying the guy on top is the defensive wrestler and the period ended like this.   Definitely an escape.  Obviously not a reversal. 

[IU89]

1 hour ago, HWTDAD said:

 

Where’s the completely separated part??

[HWTDAD]

1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

So you're saying the guy on top is the defensive wrestler and the period ended like this.   Definitely an escape.  Obviously not a reversal. 

Correct. he was on the bottom and escaped. This was mid trying to score, he got around him and they gave his 2 but then took the 2 points back and did not even award him 1. Would have tied the match and went to OT.  Really Really bad...kid was a senior and this was his last shot

[SWINfan]

4 hours ago, HWTDAD said:

Correct. he was on the bottom and escaped. This was mid trying to score, he got around him and they gave his 2 but then took the 2 points back and did not even award him 1. Would have tied the match and went to OT.  Really Really bad...kid was a senior and this was his last shot

This was discussed in the matches thread from that day.  While I can't tell you for sure from the angle the camera provided, I can say it's not as clear cut as you state.  At one point, for a split second there appears to be separation, but that in itself is not an escape.  I can't tell you if it was the correct call or not with the angle the video provides, but I can say it's not as simple as you make it out to be.  If Vanover, as the period ended has a leg, then the call was correct.  There were a few ifs in this scenario, and I don't want to use the wrong words and make it worse.  But I've seen such a situation happen before with the same call.  Sadly, for Mills, 2-3 more seconds would have likely been enough to finish the move get the points.  

 

[Wrestling Bill Walton]

1 hour ago, SWINfan said:

This was discussed in the matches thread from that day.  While I can't tell you for sure from the angle the camera provided, I can say it's not as clear cut as you state.  At one point, for a split second there appears to be separation, but that in itself is not an escape.  I can't tell you if it was the correct call or not with the angle the video provides, but I can say it's not as simple as you make it out to be.  If Vanover, as the period ended has a leg, then the call was correct.  There were a few ifs in this scenario, and I don't want to use the wrong words and make it worse.  But I've seen such a situation happen before with the same call.  Sadly, for Mills, 2-3 more seconds would have likely been enough to finish the move get the points.  

 

I think this is where I disagree with your point is that you have the wrestler has to have separation.  Lets even forget about the temp separation mentioned which clearly would have been an escape.   If you look in the picture, Mills starts in the defensive position and puts himself in an advantage situation and definitely  establishes loss of control by Vanover.  Note that Vanover has no contact or grasp of Mills legs which is clear loss of seperation.  Per the rulebook, an escape is loss of control by offensive wrestler with both wrestlers having at least two supporting points in bounds.  The ref correctly didnt make the escape call at that point to let action continue to see if a reversal occurs.    But the escape should be earned.  So what probably happened Mills tries to get around for the reversal, and Mills grabs his leg to defend.   He almost gets the reversal at the buzzer, then the ref doesnt give credit of escape for the lost control because he still has his leg.   The ref should have called the escape if he felt a mills didnt gain control in regulation no matter if Vanover had a leg or not.  But with that said,  Ive seen officials make this mistake before and this is a good learning moment.  But its a sad time for a mistake like that to cost a kid a shot at state.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Wrestling Bill Walton

[Justin Ratliff]

The match didn't end where the picture above is.  The Owen Valley wrestler had his leg in a Merckle position.  He didn't have the head and arm like a merckle though.  His left hand was under the left armpit of the Mater Dei wrestler.  His right hand hadn't been secured behind the right arm of the bottom wrestler yet and the ref called it a takedown for 2.  The official was already walking past then the OV wrestler secured his hand behind the bottom wrestlers armpit just before time ran out.

 

From where I was it definitely looked like a 2 before time ran out.

 

I'm not sure what Coach Schaefer questioned but I wondered if he asked the official if he had both arms secured behind the bottom wrestler's arms?  The official may have realized that when he awarded the points that the OV kid did not have both hands secured behind the Mater Dei's wrestler's arms, then took away the takedown.

 

However, the OV wrestler did secure it before time ran out from our vantage but the official had already walked around to the other side.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Justin Ratliff
(takedown not a reversal)

[aoberlin]

1 hour ago, Justin Ratliff said:

The match didn't end where the picture above is.  The Owen Valley wrestler had his leg in a Merckle position.  He didn't have the head and arm like a merckle though.  His left hand was under the left armpit of the Mater Dei wrestler.  His right hand hadn't been secured behind the right arm of the bottom wrestler yet and the ref called it a reversal for 2.  The official was already walking past then the OV wrestler secured his hand behind the bottom wrestlers armpit just before time ran out.

 

From where I was it definitely looked like a 2 before time ran out.

 

I'm not sure what Coach Schaefer questioned but I wondered if he asked the official if he had both arms secured behind the bottom wrestler's arms?  The official may have realized that when he awarded the points that the OV kid did not have both hands secured behind the Mater Dei's wrestler's arms, then took away the reversal.

 

However, the OV wrestler did secure it before time ran out from our vantage but the official had already walked around to the other side.

Personally I didn’t like when they changed the rule to the merkle being a takedown. It changed the way finishing a head on the inside single that goes to the mat. It use to be a good limp arm out and you were good to go now if they catch that arm you are caught in the merkle position. So now it has turned into chasing the ankle. Which many times can turn into a stalemate. You are seeing more half slidebys and elbow slides going to merkles to get the 2. I just don’t see it as control. I think it is more of a 50/50 situation but once the ref calls 2 it changes how the wrestlers react. But… that is just me.

[X_R A T E D]

There is a major problem with a shortage of good refs and a handful of refs have ego problems as discussed earlier. I had a ref last year at sectional, call stalling multiple times on a guy that was in neutral position and in on a single leg. The other wrestler defended the shot and forced what should have been a stalemate. This all occurred in the 3rd period with less than a minute left. He then told the wrestler after the match that he was lucky he didn't stall him out. I was 100% he was in the wrong and confronted him about his view on stalling and how he was in the wrong. The ref had a lengthy conversation with me between rounds and stood by his decision. His ending point of why he called stalling is one of the most insane things I've heard a ref say. This ref stated "sometimes you have to consider the school or the situation". 
 

This is a ref who has been at state many times. The fact he admitted that he considers the situation and the school is very alarming. Wrestling rules have subjectivity to them but it never says to call something different in the first period compared to the third period. I also think I'm missing the page where it says which schools the ref should consider giving better calls to. I guess like the NFL, it's just part of the script! 

[Wrestling Scholar]

1 hour ago, Justin Ratliff said:

The match didn't end where the picture above is.  The Owen Valley wrestler had his leg in a Merckle position.  He didn't have the head and arm like a merckle though.  His left hand was under the left armpit of the Mater Dei wrestler.  His right hand hadn't been secured behind the right arm of the bottom wrestler yet and the ref called it a reversal for 2.  The official was already walking past then the OV wrestler secured his hand behind the bottom wrestlers armpit just before time ran out.

 

From where I was it definitely looked like a 2 before time ran out.

 

I'm not sure what Coach Schaefer questioned but I wondered if he asked the official if he had both arms secured behind the bottom wrestler's arms?  The official may have realized that when he awarded the points that the OV kid did not have both hands secured behind the Mater Dei's wrestler's arms, then took away the reversal.

 

However, the OV wrestler did secure it before time ran out from our vantage but the official had already walked around to the other side.

Yea,  but that sounds like a timing call from the official on securing the Merkel.   But it obvious Vanover lost control deeming an escape was earned.  Why wasnt the escape given if the reversal wasnt scored.  Minimally match should have been OT.

[HWTDAD]

10 hours ago, SWINfan said:

This was discussed in the matches thread from that day.  While I can't tell you for sure from the angle the camera provided, I can say it's not as clear cut as you state.  At one point, for a split second there appears to be separation, but that in itself is not an escape.  I can't tell you if it was the correct call or not with the angle the video provides, but I can say it's not as simple as you make it out to be.  If Vanover, as the period ended has a leg, then the call was correct.  There were a few ifs in this scenario, and I don't want to use the wrong words and make it worse.  But I've seen such a situation happen before with the same call.  Sadly, for Mills, 2-3 more seconds would have likely been enough to finish the move get the points.  

 

It absolutely is clear cut. Vanover had both hands on the mat. That is loss of control

[Wrestling Bill Walton]

So watched the video on Flo.    The reversal is a tough judgement call as he secures Merkel at the buzzer.

 

1 The ref melted like butter when EMD coach went to the table, who was at table one second after buzzer.

2.  After he cancelled his 2 point reversal,  the ref put up a point escape.  Which is obviously the correct call as referenced by HWTDAD pic where it shows loss of control.    See pic below where after the reversal was cancelled, the ref clearly gives the one point escape signal.   Looks like it just gets ignored.    Its not clear, but in the confusion he just gave up on that very relevant one point escape.   

3.  EMD coach was aggressive and screaming and yelling and intimidated the ref.   Owen Valley coaches were cool and calm showing sportsmanship under an emotional situation.  Obviously they didnt get rewarded for that.   EMD coach got awarded.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Wrestling Bill Walton

[SIACfan]

17 minutes ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

So watched the video on Flo.    The reversal is a tough judgement call as he secures Merkel at the buzzer.

 

1 The ref melted like butter when EMD coach went to the table, who was at table one second after buzzer.

2.  After he cancelled his 2 point reversal,  the ref put up a point escape.  Which is obviously the correct call as referenced by HWTDAD pic where it shows loss of control.    See pic below where after the reversal was cancelled, the ref clearly gives the one point escape signal.   Looks like it just gets ignored.    Its not clear, but in the confusion he just gave up on that very relevant one point escape.   

3.  EMD coach was aggressive and screaming and yelling and intimidated the ref.   Owen Valley coaches were cool and calm showing sportsmanship under an emotional situation.  Obviously they didnt get rewarded for that. 

 

This is the most interesting part of this whole discussion. In that picture, the clock clearly shows Period 3 with 0:00 and the official is clearly showing 1 for green. Yet the score is showing 2-3 in favor of green.

 

Did the discussion between coach Schaefer & the official happen before or after this moment?

 

Had the official awarded the 2 for reversal earlier & is now already wiping that away & giving 1 for escape instead? Before the discussion with coach Schaefer?

 

Did coach Schaefer convince him neither were achieved? Or did he only argue the reversal?

 

I was in the Ford Center but was watching another match at this time. I looked over & saw the result only after all this was over.

[SLAPtheMAT1313]

That fits with how things went down in the arena.  I can't certify order of events, but the Cool/Calm demeanor of the OV coaches I think reflected that they felt they had the 1point to fall back on!  Like a safety net of sorts...they recognized the reversal was borderline, but the escape was clear...so they didn't overreact to the 2pt being wiped.  It was when they realized that the 1pt wasn't put on the board that they attempted to run over, but to no avail..then they were left to console a heartbroken senior who had been cheated...should have been decided ON THE MAT

[ReformedPoster]

2 minutes ago, SLAPtheMAT1313 said:

That fits with how things went down in the arena.  I can't certify order of events, but the Cool/Calm demeanor of the OV coaches I think reflected that they felt they had the 1point to fall back on!  Like a safety net of sorts...they recognized the reversal was borderline, but the escape was clear...so they didn't overreact to the 2pt being wiped.  It was when they realized that the 1pt wasn't put on the board that they attempted to run over, but to no avail..then they were left to console a heartbroken senior who had been cheated...should have been decided ON THE MAT

Cheated is a strong word.  it implies intent.  I know the ref in question and he is right down the middle kind of guy that does not favor one kid over another.  Mistakes happen, and that is unfortunate.  But nobody was cheated out of anything

[IU89]

1 hour ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

So watched the video on Flo.    The reversal is a tough judgement call as he secures Merkel at the buzzer.

 

1 The ref melted like butter when EMD coach went to the table, who was at table one second after buzzer.

2.  After he cancelled his 2 point reversal,  the ref put up a point escape.  Which is obviously the correct call as referenced by HWTDAD pic where it shows loss of control.    See pic below where after the reversal was cancelled, the ref clearly gives the one point escape signal.   Looks like it just gets ignored.    Its not clear, but in the confusion he just gave up on that very relevant one point escape.   

3.  EMD coach was aggressive and screaming and yelling and intimidated the ref.   Owen Valley coaches were cool and calm showing sportsmanship under an emotional situation.  Obviously they didnt get rewarded for that.   EMD coach got awarded.

 

Coach Schaefer has never yelled and screamed or intimidated a ref in his life. You’re a liar and a moron. Making up stories to fit your narrative. You have zero credibility and should be ashamed. 

[Wrestling Bill Walton]

7 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

This is the most interesting part of this whole discussion. In that picture, the clock clearly shows Period 3 with 0:00 and the official is clearly showing 1 for green. Yet the score is showing 2-3 in favor of green.

 

Did the discussion between coach Schaefer & the official happen before or after this moment?

 

Had the official awarded the 2 for reversal earlier & is now already wiping that away & giving 1 for escape instead? Before the discussion with coach Schaefer?

 

Did coach Schaefer convince him neither were achieved? Or did he only argue the reversal?

 

I was in the Ford Center but was watching another match at this time. I looked over & saw the result only after all this was over.

Since ive know for my play by play:  Here's my call.

 

Vanover riding Mills with 6 seconds left and 2 to 1 lead. Mills stands up, cuts in with left hand and step gets brief separation.  Could have been an escape.  Millls attacks immediately, Vanover falls to knees with hands on mat meeting loss of control.   Mills facing Vanover has body lock around waist, then with 3 seconds.  Mills spins to right. With 2 secs,   he inserts left leg into Merkel position,  with left arm behind armpit.  Simultaneously  at buzzer, Mills right arm inserted behind right armpit meeting technical definition of control for rev or takedown.  Ref thows up two reversal as at same time EMD coach Schaefer runs to the table yelling. 

 

Ref walks to table with EMD coach Schaefer while admantly complaining.  After brief 2 second  talk,  official talks to asst official. Asst official says one sentence, then head ref indicates no control sign effectively cancelling reversal.   Then ref  heads to center of mat, raises left hand with 1 red escape, and realizes wrong wrestler and corrects to one green  point escape to Vanover.  Table never records the point.  Coach Shchaefer yells something in disagreement from corner.  Scoreboard still says 3-2 at that point, immediately score changes to to 2-1.  Asst ref says something to table and indicates the no control ref symbol.   Kids look like they're ready to wrestle OT.  Ref goes to Owen Valley corner and explains call.  Score shows 2-1.  Ref locks back to circle,  kids take leg bands off.  Then ref walks to table, spends 5 seconds at table.  Camera is blocked but looks like he does call of mechanic.  Schaeffer approaches table arguing, and ref waives hand to tell him to back off.  

 

Ref walks back to circle and raises Vanovers hand.    Owen Valley coaches go to table with ref, and calmly but adamantly argue.  You could see the head coach has the index finger pointing indicating he wants the one point escape.   Ref disregards argument and walks away.  End of match.

 

[Silence Dogood]

1 minute ago, Wrestling Bill Walton said:

Since ive know for my play by play:  Here's my call.

 

Vanover riding Mills with 6 seconds left and 2 to 1 lead. Mills stands up, cuts in with left hand and step gets brief separation.  Could have been an escape.  Millls attacks immediately, Vanover falls to knees with hands on mat meeting loss of control.   Mills facing Vanover has body lock around waist, then with 3 seconds.  Mills spins to right. With 2 secs,   he inserts left leg into Merkel position,  with left arm behind armpit.  Simultaneously  at buzzer, Mills right arm inserted behind right armpit meeting technical definition of control for rev or takedown.  Ref thows up two reversal as at same time EMD coach Schaefer runs to the table yelling. 

 

Ref walks to table with EMD coach Schaefer while admantly complaining.  After brief 2 second  talk,  official talks to asst official. Asst official says one sentence, then head ref indicates no control sign effectively cancelling reversal.   Then ref  heads to center of mat, raises left hand with 1 red escape, and realizes wrong wrestler and corrects to one green  point escape to Vanover.  Table never records the point.  Coach Shchaefer yells something in disagreement from corner.  Scoreboard still says 3-2 at that point, immediately score changes to to 2-1.  Asst ref says something to table and indicates the no control ref symbol.   Kids look like they're ready to wrestle OT.  Ref goes to Owen Valley corner and explains call.  Score shows 2-1.  Ref locks back to circle,  kids take leg bands off.  Then ref walks to table, spends 5 seconds at table.  Camera is blocked but looks like he does call of mechanic.  Schaeffer approaches table arguing, and ref waives hand to tell him to back off.  

 

Ref walks back to circle and raises Vanovers hand.    Owen Valley coaches go to table with ref, and calmly but adamantly argue.  You could see the head coach has the index finger pointing indicating he wants the one point escape.   Ref disregards argument and walks away.  End of match.

 

Just rewatched on Flo and this captured most of it. But the audio is important too. Ref gets confused as he is talking to the table help to clarify whether an escape was awarded - he said there was no takedown. Seems like he forgot that it was a reversal/escape scenario. 

 

Also sounded like the table help missed the 1 pt escape that that the ref signaled.  

[Wrestling Bill Walton]

6 minutes ago, IU89 said:

Coach Schaefer has never yelled and screamed or intimidated a ref in his life. You’re a liar and a moron. Making up stories to fit your narrative. You have zero credibility and should be ashamed. 

Just making my call from what i saw on the video.  Video doesn't lie.   Ref minimally should have hit him for misconduct.  Sorry to get your panties in a ruffle.   With all due respect, I didnt mean to offend your sensitivities.

[Silence Dogood]

Owen Valley coach: "You gave 2. Then you gave 1. Then you took both away " 

[Silence Dogood]

Another thing I'll say about listening to the audio...it sounded like one person at the table that was talking did not want there to be an escape. 

[Wrestling Bill Walton]

30 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

Just rewatched on Flo and this captured most of it. But the audio is important too. Ref gets confused as he is talking to the table help to clarify whether an escape was awarded - he said there was no takedown. Seems like he forgot that it was a reversal/escape scenario. 

 

Also sounded like the table help missed the 1 pt escape that that the ref signaled.  

 

30 minutes ago, Silence Dogood said:

Just rewatched on Flo and this captured most of it. But the audio is important too. Ref gets confused as he is talking to the table help to clarify whether an escape was awarded - he said there was no takedown. Seems like he forgot that it was a reversal/escape scenario. 

 

Also sounded like the table help missed the 1 pt escape that that the ref signaled.  

Audio is pretty good,  the ref clearly indicates  an escape in his signal.  The table is looking for clarification, and he goes back to table to indicate no takedown.  Which clearly designates an escape was earned.   The table help obviously was from EMD complaining and cussing on the call, then they cheered when Vanover won.     You can see one table guy talk the other guy out of the escape.  Then the ref comes to the table confused about no points scored, probably thinking he had already called an escape.     EMD should give an assist to these guys for the win.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Wrestling Bill Walton

[HornetSloan]

Table help influenced the call for sure. The ref got flat out confused. I think he thought the score as it was included the escape point. The table was asking about a takedown, not a reversal. OV right to be irate.  

[rrschott]

2 hours ago, HornetSloan said:

Table help influenced the call for sure. The ref got flat out confused. I think he thought the score as it was included the escape point. The table was asking about a takedown, not a reversal. OV right to be irate.  

I hate to say it, but at that point it's on the coaches to make sure everything is scored correctly.  review the sequence in Track, make sure their wrestler is credited with the escape, and make the ref explain why it's not going to OT.  That's the coaches' obligation to their wrestler, and there are certainly ways to raise those issues in a respectful manner while still advocating for your guy, especially with that much on the line.

[Silence Dogood]

18 minutes ago, rrschott said:

I hate to say it, but at that point it's on the coaches to make sure everything is scored correctly.  review the sequence in Track, make sure their wrestler is credited with the escape, and make the ref explain why it's not going to OT.  That's the coaches' obligation to their wrestler, and there are certainly ways to raise those issues in a respectful manner while still advocating for your guy, especially with that much on the line.

They tried. The ref was confused and shut it down.