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Carmel Disciplined for Sauna Suits

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1 hour ago, hometown said:

THE KIDS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO WRESTLE END OF STORY. IF THIS WAS A SMALL SCHOOL BOB COX WOULD OF SAID YOU ARE DONE, HE HAS DONE THIS STUFF BEFORE HE LIKE TO PLEASE ALL THE BIG SCHOOL NO MATTER WHAT BECAUSE THEY BRING IN THE MONEY FOR THE IHSAA. THE 8 WRESTLERS AND THE HEAD COACH SHOULD HAVE TO SIT OUT THE TOURNAMENT. 

Anyone else find it weird that this guy created an account just to call for the suspension of wrestlers?

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5 minutes ago, MattM said:

Just catching up on this mess, so sorry if this may have already been asked.   More than the match win/loss changing, shouldn’t this effect the qualifying weigh-in’s being that they were achieved illegally?  That seems like something some coaches/wrestlers would take more issue with if they had some weigh-ins not count due to not falling in their qualifying weight margins.  

Great question.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, UncleJimmy said:

Not to make it a federal offense but...

If I had a "decent" kid at say 145 (be it sectional/regional/SS/S) and he's going against the Carmel kid (again theoretical weight..could be any weight) and my kid gets taken out say in ticket round by the Carmel 145. If I was a coach I think I would want to look at the weight loss plan for the Carmel kid, no? What if one or more of his qualifying weigh ins, and more importantly his scratch one, came during the period when the #SuanaSuit was used? Seems to me that just wouldn't be right or fair, no? Maybe he doesn't make 145 without the aid of the illegal #SuanaSuit and thus should not have been entered in the 145lb class at all? I dunno...just seems we should be past this kind of issue nowadays.

Exactly!  More than the change to win/loss, the qualifying weigh-in’s achieved illegally would the the issue I think some coaches/wrestlers would take issue with.   If a wrestler had a few of their weigh-ins scratched due to not falling in their qualifying weight margins and this couldn’t drop a weight class they are the one that may really have a right to complain.   These guys get at a sectional weight they want despite achieving it illegally and your wrestler didn’t get to that weight due to their weigh-in margins not being within the limits.  For as much as the IHSAA wants to make sure coaches /wrestlers jump through hoops to make ans document the qualifying weigh-ins it seems like the part of this problem they would want highlight. Unfortunately this and the possible resulting weight change was not made part of the issue/punishment.  That part of things is wheee I feel the IHSAA fell short in addressing (or choose to not address).  

Edited by MattM

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1 hour ago, Coach Leroy Vega said:

First off I want to let everyone know I usually do not read threads on here and I just now signed up to be able to post because it sickens me to see these “likes” and comments! While I do not condone the issue of using plastics, I also do not  know the full story on what recently took place at Carmel High School, nor do any of you! It makes me sad that I see such negative comments towards my high school coach, knowing he has done SO much for many programs and for the state of Indiana. I am not going to sit here and tell you that I have agreed with everything Coach P has done, there have been times we haven’t seen things eye to eye.....But I am not going to forget everything else he stands for and the many improvements he has brought to the wrestling community in Indiana. Nobody is perfect! We all make mistakes, some more public than others. It saddens me to see so many people that have reaped the benefits of his presence in wrestling get on this thread and bash him and “like” derogatory comments about him. 

 

Coaching isn’t easy and dealing with most parents does NOT make it fun. One of the fundamental rules I live my life by is “never kick a man when he is down”. I will put aside my thoughts and opinions and I CHOOSE to reach out and anyone who is down I try to help them rise again and become better! One bad decision does not define you!!! It is when you are down you will find your true friends, I am here for P. Writing thoughtless posts on message boards while hiding behind a keyboard is also a great way to burn bridges ..... something else I try very hard never to do!

Leroy Vega 

 

I really think that the majority of post address the affect or lack of affect that this is causing in the state series. While Carmel kids lost wins, other gained wins. I think this is the mess that most are concerned with (the affect on records and seeding). 

With all that said, it looks like it will have little to no affect on the state series. 

And for the people that are crushing the coaches... we will never learn their names. So who cares. 

Edited by Mattyb

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So if there was effectively no punishment, then why doesn’t everyone use them? If I let my kids wrestle for someone I assume that person has my child’s best interest and health in mind.

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45 minutes ago, takemtothemat said:

Just catching up on this mess, so sorry if this may have already been asked.   More than the match win/loss changing, shouldn’t this effect the qualifying weigh-in’s being that they were achieved illegally?  That seems like something some coaches/wrestlers would take more issue with if they had some weigh-ins not count due to not falling in their qualifying weight margins.  

As I’m reading this thread this was the first question I had as well. Maybe they had enough “qualifying weigh-ins” other than the ones they had to forfeit?

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12 minutes ago, Joker said:

As I’m reading this thread this was the first question I had as well. Maybe they had enough “qualifying weigh-ins” other than the ones they had to forfeit?

If so I guess it works to keep them at that weight since the proof is already there. But if the qualifying weigh-ins are not meet before I’d think a possible right/fair solution is to bump them up a weight class where it can be assured they would have made weight legally.  I’m not a big proponent of kicking them out completely, but adhere to the same weight management guidelines they other wrestler are getting dinged for due only barely missing a small qualifying weight range.   Sure re-adjust some of the weight class seeds if you want to make sure it doesn’t hurt the brackets integrity by having them draw into top seeds (yes I know that take awhile I’ve been to the meetings).  But at least ensure qualifying weight is proven like other wrestlers/coaches have had to do since that’s such an emphasis by the IHSAA.  It sounds like from another thread at least one kid was moved brackets likely due to a qualifying weigh-in issue, so logic would say treat this issue similarly.   

Edited by MattM

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1 hour ago, Thor said:

Anyone else find it weird that this guy created an account just to call for the suspension of wrestlers?

Exactly man. Either they’re wanting these young men out for their own benefit or whatever the case may be. Sure it was wrong but let’s be honest, there are many wrestlers walking around that bend or break the weight rules. Time to move along for the best part of the season and may the best wrestler win. 

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1 minute ago, 1prouddad said:

Exactly man. Either they’re wanting these young men out for their own benefit or whatever the case may be. Sure it was wrong but let’s be honest, there are many wrestlers walking around that bend or break the weight rules. Time to move along for the best part of the season and may the best wrestler win. 

I CALL FOR SUSPENSION BECAUSE IT HAPPENED TO ME NOT TO LONG AGO. THE STATE IS THE ONE WHO DID THE SUSPENSION. YOU CANT HAVE DOUBLE STANDARD FOR THE SAME PUNISHMENT. I WENT TO A SMALL SCHOOL THEY GO TO A KNOWN STATE POWERHOUSE IN ALL SPORTS 

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I’m pretty sure the so called sauna suits were “technically against the rules” even back in the 70’s when “everybody” was doing it.  (Or so I was told at the time.)  However, it was most generally overlooked kind of like driving a few miles over the speed limit.  I think at least a lot of schools were openly handing them out as standard practice equipment. And I think they must have been recognized as being POTENTIALLY dangerous even then or they probably wouldn’t have already been “technically against the rules”.  However, I think enforcement became more of a priority after some tragic events occurred (as has already been pointed out).  Of course, those tragic events were brought on by some very severe and extreme abuses.

Certainly, use of sauna suits can be potentially dangerous as are many rapid weight loss techniques.  Sauna suits are against the rules and so should not be used.  But if we are talking about potential risk and endangerment and not just about breaking rules, any method of losing large amount of weight rapidly through dehydration is fraught with equal risk.  For certain, to be losing 10 pounds via dehydration in a week (or even weekly?) certainly isn’t healthy and can cause not only short term but long term health risks.  So if we are castigating Carmel wrestling for breaking rules, okay.  But if we are tsk-tsk-ing them for potentially endangering the wrestlers, I think perhaps a lot of people better be wary of their own glass houses.    

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18 minutes ago, hometown said:

I CALL FOR SUSPENSION BECAUSE IT HAPPENED TO ME NOT TO LONG AGO. THE STATE IS THE ONE WHO DID THE SUSPENSION. YOU CANT HAVE DOUBLE STANDARD FOR THE SAME PUNISHMENT. I WENT TO A SMALL SCHOOL THEY GO TO A KNOWN STATE POWERHOUSE IN ALL SPORTS 

You were suspended for using sauna suits not too long ago?

 

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We're on here talkin' bout sauna suits? Sauna Suits? Not the wrestling. Not the matches. Sauna suits? Boy i wore a sauna suit underneath a mat in Lucifer's boiler room at SB Washington High School in 1988 and was no worse for the wear!  I used to wrestle Heatmiser just to warm up.  I played Satan in Head to Head on a radiator.  I put lava rocks in my pants so I could sweat more.  Water? Didn't y'all watch Vision Quest? It's for the weak! 

On a serious note: Leave the kids out of it. Adults should've intervened. They are the responsible parties.  Let's enjoy this state run!

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Has nobody learned not to bash people (especially high school kids) until the whole story comes out?

I’ve been searching for info most of the day but have only found one vague article and a bunch of people on here ready to execute them. It all seems strange to me because some of these duals were from early December. Who knew about these for most of the season and waited to report it until until the right before sectionals? By everyone’s comments here, that person also put all these kids’ lives in danger for a couple months for not reporting it sooner. 

The article I read did state that Carmel’s Athletic Dept self reported the violations to the IHSAA as soon as they learned of it. But there was no info on how they were told. 

I’m going to choose to wait on my judgement and what an appropriate punishment would be until more info comes to light. 

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Hey Uncle Jimmy! 

Ok here goes my thoughts on this and I’ll try my best to stick to what I KNOW as fact from my time with Coach P and Carmel Wrestling as best I can.

First, please know I’m not in anyone’s inner circle and like Coach Vega said, I do not know any of the details other than what has been made public. I love wrestling and I love Carmel wrestling although I haven’t gotten to be part of it lately as much as I’d like. I’ve been to war WITH Coach P and FOR Coach P and I’m not going to abandon him now just cuz things are a little uncomfortable. Can he be a little stubborn? Yes. Can he be a little disorganized? YES. Can communication be a little frustrating with him from time to time? Hell yes! Can his shirt be a little too small as if it was his daughters before she outgrew it? Yes!!! Is he a cheater? NO! Not during my time there and I find it hard to believe that in the last three years that’s changed. Honestly, from my personal perspective the story doesn’t add up the way it’s being reported. When Clown Baby Jr. wrestled there, I asked specifically about sauna suits because I saw so many wrestlers using them in different programs and had no idea they were illegal. It’s something you can buy at Bloomingdales right off the shelf so why would I? You’d a thought I just walked across freshly disinfected wrestling mats with street shoes on. I was told absolutely not to put CBJ in one and not to bring it up again especially in front of parents who may be inclined to use them. 

  I hate that this is happening right before the state tournament starts, it’s terrible timing not that there is a perfect time for it to happen. I would make a plea to anyone calling for the wrestlers involved to be disqualified from the state series to think about what happened to those kids last week in Washington DC. They’re kids and the punishment doesn’t fit the crime. Also, it could easily be your kid or program going through this and I for one promise you I would feel the same as I do now and I would stand up for them too. Even if said kid was in CBJ’s weight class. 

I want to add also to what Coach Vega said about dealing with parents. I’m just going to put this out there, sometimes us parents can be huge assholes and very difficult to deal with. Unfortunately there’s a few who may be surprised to hear it and if so, you’re probably one of them. Can you imagine being a wrestling coach at any high school these days and dealing with the parents, the AD and the wrestlers and doing it for what they get paid? I’m out of line now but I’ll just say it takes a very special breed to do it and I appreciate every one of them. 

 

Wrestling Scholar - Where are you drinking in Carmel for only $20 a pop? I shudder at the idea, you should be drinking at least $40 drinks here. Is it black market basement booze? Never mind, I’ll have to take you out for a good $65 top shelf drink sometime. You too Uncle Jimmy. 

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6 minutes ago, ClownBaby said:

Hey Uncle Jimmy! 

Ok here goes my thoughts on this and I’ll try my best to stick to what I KNOW as fact from my time with Coach P and Carmel Wrestling as best I can.

First, please know I’m not in anyone’s inner circle and like Coach Vega said, I do not know any of the details other than what has been made public. I love wrestling and I love Carmel wrestling although I haven’t gotten to be part of it lately as much as I’d like. I’ve been to war WITH Coach P and FOR Coach P and I’m not going to abandon him now just cuz things are a little uncomfortable. Can he be a little stubborn? Yes. Can he be a little disorganized? YES. Can communication be a little frustrating with him from time to time? Hell yes! Can his shirt be a little too small as if it was his daughters before she outgrew it? Yes!!! Is he a cheater? NO! Not during my time there and I find it hard to believe that in the last three years that’s changed. Honestly, from my personal perspective the story doesn’t add up the way it’s being reported. When Clown Baby Jr. wrestled there, I asked specifically about sauna suits because I saw so many wrestlers using them in different programs and had no idea they were illegal. It’s something you can buy at Bloomingdales right off the shelf so why would I? You’d a thought I just walked across freshly disinfected wrestling mats with street shoes on. I was told absolutely not to put CBJ in one and not to bring it up again especially in front of parents who may be inclined to use them. 

  I hate that this is happening right before the state tournament starts, it’s terrible timing not that there is a perfect time for it to happen. I would make a plea to anyone calling for the wrestlers involved to be disqualified from the state series to think about what happened to those kids last week in Washington DC. They’re kids and the punishment doesn’t fit the crime. Also, it could easily be your kid or program going through this and I for one promise you I would feel the same as I do now and I would stand up for them too. Even if said kid was in CBJ’s weight class. 

I want to add also to what Coach Vega said about dealing with parents. I’m just going to put this out there, sometimes us parents can be huge assholes and very difficult to deal with. Unfortunately there’s a few who may be surprised to hear it and if so, you’re probably one of them. Can you imagine being a wrestling coach at any high school these days and dealing with the parents, the AD and the wrestlers and doing it for what they get paid? I’m out of line now but I’ll just say it takes a very special breed to do it and I appreciate every one of them. 

 

Wrestling Scholar - Where are you drinking in Carmel for only $20 a pop? I shudder at the idea, you should be drinking at least $40 drinks here. Is it black market basement booze? Never mind, I’ll have to take you out for a good $65 top shelf drink sometime. You too Uncle Jimmy. 

IF THIS WAS MY KID I WOULD BE OKAY IF HE WASN'T ABLE TO COMPETE ITS IS OWN DUMB ASS FAULT HE DID THIS TAKE THE PUNISHMENT AS IT IS. 

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Why should any teams follow weight loss rules? If these kids or coaches aren't suspended, the IHSAA sets the precedent that nobody has to follow weight loss rules. Regardless of your thoughts on if they should/n't be allowed to wrestle, no punishment says that the "rules" are guidelines.

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2 hours ago, tefakes said:

I've been a proponent of mat-side weigh-ins for several years now. 

Glad there appears to be at least 3 of us.  LOL.  

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24 minutes ago, ClownBaby said:

Hey Uncle Jimmy! 

Ok here goes my thoughts on this and I’ll try my best to stick to what I KNOW as fact from my time with Coach P and Carmel Wrestling as best I can.

First, please know I’m not in anyone’s inner circle and like Coach Vega said, I do not know any of the details other than what has been made public. I love wrestling and I love Carmel wrestling although I haven’t gotten to be part of it lately as much as I’d like. I’ve been to war WITH Coach P and FOR Coach P and I’m not going to abandon him now just cuz things are a little uncomfortable. Can he be a little stubborn? Yes. Can he be a little disorganized? YES. Can communication be a little frustrating with him from time to time? Hell yes! Can his shirt be a little too small as if it was his daughters before she outgrew it? Yes!!! Is he a cheater? NO! Not during my time there and I find it hard to believe that in the last three years that’s changed. Honestly, from my personal perspective the story doesn’t add up the way it’s being reported. When Clown Baby Jr. wrestled there, I asked specifically about sauna suits because I saw so many wrestlers using them in different programs and had no idea they were illegal. It’s something you can buy at Bloomingdales right off the shelf so why would I? You’d a thought I just walked across freshly disinfected wrestling mats with street shoes on. I was told absolutely not to put CBJ in one and not to bring it up again especially in front of parents who may be inclined to use them. 

  I hate that this is happening right before the state tournament starts, it’s terrible timing not that there is a perfect time for it to happen. I would make a plea to anyone calling for the wrestlers involved to be disqualified from the state series to think about what happened to those kids last week in Washington DC. They’re kids and the punishment doesn’t fit the crime. Also, it could easily be your kid or program going through this and I for one promise you I would feel the same as I do now and I would stand up for them too. Even if said kid was in CBJ’s weight class. 

I want to add also to what Coach Vega said about dealing with parents. I’m just going to put this out there, sometimes us parents can be huge assholes and very difficult to deal with. Unfortunately there’s a few who may be surprised to hear it and if so, you’re probably one of them. Can you imagine being a wrestling coach at any high school these days and dealing with the parents, the AD and the wrestlers and doing it for what they get paid? I’m out of line now but I’ll just say it takes a very special breed to do it and I appreciate every one of them. 

 

Wrestling Scholar - Where are you drinking in Carmel for only $20 a pop? I shudder at the idea, you should be drinking at least $40 drinks here. Is it black market basement booze? Never mind, I’ll have to take you out for a good $65 top shelf drink sometime. You too Uncle Jimmy. 

Where is there a Bloomingdale's??  Is it some sort of secret underground club under the Monon that you have to knock 3 times, show your Rolex, and whisper "sauna suits" to get in?  

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6 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

Where is there a Bloomingdale's??  Is it some sort of secret underground club under the Monon that you have to knock 3 times, show your Rolex, and whisper "sauna suits" to get in?  

Ah, you’ve been there before too I see. Nice! 

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So back to my earlier question..Can the IHSAA still decide to suspend all at this late in the game?   Or the decision is final they just forfeit wins... any thoughts...

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52 minutes ago, Coach AJ said:

So back to my earlier question..Can the IHSAA still decide to suspend all at this late in the game?   Or the decision is final they just forfeit wins... any thoughts...

I’m guessing the forfeits will be it. I can’t see the IHSAA making and changes right now. Guess we will see in the morning.

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