84Coach Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Wonder how many coaches are exploiting the rule around replacing a seeded wrestler last minute and droping thier replacement into the 6th seed spot. Rule is a rule, fine i get it. But i have seen soo many times that magically the actual starter wasnt seeded. In turn a JV wrestler is seeded with a decent record. Always just barely over the 10 match limit too oddly enough. Then before the tournament here comes the actual starter and is dropped into the bottom side of the bracket with the 2 and 3 seeds for all 3 to fight it out. This is not what the rule was intended for, but is exploited year after year. This year will be no different. AJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Heard a coach had a girl that is 10-0 and picked 10 matches that she would win in order to get a high seed. She had 7 losses against girls that I guess didn't count, so she enters as a 2 seed. Also heard a coach claimed they had a win over a top wrestler, but was called on it and it was a "mistake." ArgyllWrestling, Coplen187, MitchRobb and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awill0352 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 What's to gain here? Eliminating a 2 or 3 seed earlier so they don't score the team points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84Coach Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 9 minutes ago, awill0352 said: What's to gain here? Eliminating a 2 or 3 seed earlier so they don't score the team points? Say by seeding criteria the actual starter may be a 4 seed. On the top side of the bracket. But they think they have a better chance at beeting the 2 and 3 seed to make the finals. Then they exploit this rule. Get thier kid on the bottomside of the bracket and take thier chances. awill0352 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 The new forfeit rule is also being exploited from what I hear. 84Coach 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Cooper Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Requiring all teams to use trackwrestling as a scorebook would solve many issues. Every result would be public for everyone to see. I don't understand why teams don't use it already. All your matches are online, you can look back in previous years anytime you want. This would solve the issue of questionable records, asking about commons, etc. Coach Peck, PreparetoWin, leggin89 and 13 others 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Weaker schedules get kids better seeds more times then replacing kids. It is what it is. It will never be perfect. MUSKEEWRESTLER, HWTDAD, QuinnHarris and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84Coach Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 16 minutes ago, Mattyb said: Weaker schedules get kids better seeds more times then replacing kids. It is what it is. It will never be perfect. Agreed never perfect. When you travel out of state, wrestle all over chasing that tough competition that some schools dont have the opportunity to, you do loose some seeding criteria. It is what it is and like you said not perfect. But are you saying you okay with teams exploiting the replacing a seeded wrestler rule intentionally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 13 minutes ago, 84Coach said: Agreed never perfect. When you travel out of state, wrestle all over chasing that tough competition that some schools dont have the opportunity to, you do loose some seeding criteria. It is what it is and like you said not perfect. But are you saying you okay with teams exploiting the replacing a seeded wrestler rule intentionally? First I’ve heard of that rule. I have no clue. I’m just a middle school coach. Just pointing out other factors. But just think differences in strength of schedules plays in more then replacing kids. Just an uneducated opinion. Edited January 26 by Mattyb CainBones and PreparetoWin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, 84Coach said: Say by seeding criteria the actual starter may be a 4 seed. On the top side of the bracket. But they think they have a better chance at beeting the 2 and 3 seed to make the finals. Then they exploit this rule. Get thier kid on the bottomside of the bracket and take thier chances. Just to play devils advocate, I have seen the coaches of the 3rd and 4th best kids in the bracket use criteria to bump the 2nd best kid up to the top. Is this legal? Yes Does it align with the intent of seeding and taking advantage of criteria? Mattyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) If the seeding meetings are permanently going to be moved to Wednesday I would have not issue with the rule being changed to "no replacements" if your wrestler already entered in a finalized seeding meeting bracket drops out. Other than a few freak accidents there shouldn't be anyone getting seriously injured or sick between Wednesday after practice and Saturday morning. And most wrestlers with minor injuries or sickness will still find a way to compete that day. The old Monday seeding meeting offered a little more of a chance, but Wednesday is pretty close to competition and the coaches usually taper things down a decent amount by then. We all know the teams doing this are entering a weaker wrestlers who happens to have only wrestled selective matches and came out with a decent record in order to ensure the coach can get them any of the seeds. Then the coach replaces that entered kid with their actual good wrestlers who is dropped to the 6-seed, which just so happens to now avoid the #1 kid until the sectional finals, which they may not be able to beat. Sure it's within the rules but it wrecks the rest of the seeds for the other sectional wrestlers and usually bunches two sold wrestlers into a blood round match. We all know that "strategy replacement kid" was getting through regardless but the real damage is it now likely puts a few regional quality guys out at the blood round due to their brackets shift now pairing them against each other then while on the other side a unlikely regional qualifier gets through since their side becomes a much easier route after the shift. May not be as big of an issue with the small size sectionals but some of the bigger ones with several quality wrestlers it definitely puts a few kids in a tough spot. My only other possible suggestion other than "no replacements" would either: 1.) Move the replacement wrestlers into the 5-seed so they have to face the #1 guy in the semi-finals. This makes the above strategy kinda pointless. 2.) Shift the other guys up into the remaining seeds and then draw the replacement wrestler in. Which then at least means you have a 50% chance of running into the #1 guy before or by the semi-finals. Which again I'm not sure most coaches would want to gamble on. This game is getting played enough times now that I think the coaches' association and IHSAA may need to revisit the "replacement rule" soon. Edited January 26 by MattM Coach Peck, Gdunham149 and 84Coach 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 I know we do, but why do we place the "new" wrestler on the 6th seed line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julio Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 The replacement should go where the last person drawn was placed on the bracket and the last person drawn should go to the 6th seed spot. infowrestling, Coach Peck, AJ and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 4 minutes ago, AJ said: I know we do, but why do we place the "new" wrestler on the 6th seed line? Because hypothetically they would need to figure out who the 7th seed would have been and that is not done in the seeding meeting. So we would need to seed the 7th in someway and they are the alternate. Which I think should be easy enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 5 minutes ago, AJ said: I know we do, but why do we place the "new" wrestler on the 6th seed line? It was the lowest seed available at the sectional. I assume the feeling was a genuine replacement could be decent enough to be seeded 6th seed and that would still not give them a big advantage if the wrestlers weren't quite the quality of a 6th seed. It's also one less draw-in bracket shift, but if you are already shifting multiple seeding wrestlers I'm not sure that argument really works much. But these "strategy replacements" don't fit that mentality since they often can beat the #3 and at least have a decent shot at beating the #2. My 3 suggestions above (one at the top and two at the bottom) are possible fixes to that. Edited January 26 by MattM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 3 minutes ago, AJ said: I know we do, but why do we place the "new" wrestler on the 6th seed line? No one below #6 is seeded, so if you put a replacement there you've essentially created a bracket with only 5 seeded kids and no need to move a bunch of kids around other than the pre-determined seeds. Just now, julio said: The replacement should go where the last person drawn was placed on the bracket and the last person drawn should go to the 6th seed spot. I like this idea. Still minimal moving, but reduces the nonsense a bit. MUSKEEWRESTLER 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamGarcia Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Idea… Seeding Challenges! Coaches can now challenge the seeding, 1 challenge per Team. Much like Coop said, every record on Trackwrestling, wrestle off for the seed . Pigtail on brackets for this Challenge match . Mattyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 20 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said: Idea… Seeding Challenges! Coaches can now challenge the seeding, 1 challenge per Team. Much like Coop said, every record on Trackwrestling, wrestle off for the seed . Pigtail on brackets for this Challenge match . This guy is the Antonio Brown of the message board.. the best ever to do it.. but… too crazy to get his HOF jacket! Edited January 26 by Mattyb Thor, HCman, TeamGarcia and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamGarcia Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 minute ago, Mattyb said: This guy is the Antonio Brown of the message board.. the best ever to do it.. but… to crazy to get his HOF jacket! Mattyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualwrestlingfan Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Don't complain too loudly! The IHSAA will just make them all random draws like everything else! aoberlin, Thor, Christopher Bohn and 9 others 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Just now, casualwrestlingfan said: Don't complain too loudly! The IHSAA will just make them all random draws like everything else! Facts MUSKEEWRESTLER, Tcarter and RAJR 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Cooper Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 35 minutes ago, MattM said: But these "strategy replacements" don't fit that mentality since they often can beat the #3 and at least have a decent shot at beating the #2. Matt, I don’t completely understand your position here, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. By what you said above it seems like the issue is with the way a bracket is seeded if a replacement wrestler can beat the 2 and 3 seeds. TeamInjuryTime07 and bomber_bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Ratliff Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 53 minutes ago, MattM said: It was the lowest seed available at the sectional. I assume the feeling was a genuine replacement could be decent enough to be seeded 6th seed and that would still not give them a big advantage if the wrestlers weren't quite the quality of a 6th seed. It's also one less draw-in bracket shift, but if you are already shifting multiple seeding wrestlers I'm not sure that argument really works much. But these "strategy replacements" don't fit that mentality since they often can beat the #3 and at least have a decent shot at beating the #2. My 3 suggestions above (one at the top and two at the bottom) are possible fixes to that. Saw this happen last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infowrestling Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, julio said: The replacement should go where the last person drawn was placed on the bracket and the last person drawn should go to the 6th seed spot. This is the way RAJR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 40 minutes ago, casualwrestlingfan said: Don't complain too loudly! The IHSAA will just make them all random draws like everything else! 39 minutes ago, aoberlin said: Facts Y2CJ41 and MUSKEEWRESTLER 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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