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Can someone please explain the process of what and when referees work at semi state and state. This rotating and sitting out to me makes no sense. I think of someone like Mike Faulkner in Northern Indiana who is hands down one of the best and I think most agree yet if I see it right can’t go back for a few years. Why not allow the coaches voices in different sections of the state have a little more say and input of the refs they see often and have the ability in voting in the officials above the rotating schedule? You can even have and I’ve seen them....new first second or third year officials I would vote for. Tenure should not be rewarded as much as excellence. I think we’re struggling getting officials cause the system is watered down. 

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2 minutes ago, Jim calhoun said:

Can someone please explain the process of what and when referees work at semi state and state. This rotating and sitting out to me makes no sense. I think of someone like Mike Faulkner in Northern Indiana who is hands down one of the best and I think most agree yet if I see it right can’t go back for a few years. Why not allow the coaches voices in different sections of the state have a little more say and input of the refs they see often and have the ability in voting in the officials above the rotating schedule? You can even have and I’ve seen them....new first second or third year officials I would vote for. Tenure should not be rewarded as much as excellence. I think we’re struggling getting officials cause the system is watered down. 

 

I believe it is based off of the Coaches survey on the officials.

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3 minutes ago, Jim calhoun said:

Can someone please explain the process of what and when referees work at semi state and state. This rotating and sitting out to me makes no sense. I think of someone like Mike Faulkner in Northern Indiana who is hands down one of the best and I think most agree yet if I see it right can’t go back for a few years. Why not allow the coaches voices in different sections of the state have a little more say and input of the refs they see often and have the ability in voting in the officials above the rotating schedule? You can even have and I’ve seen them....new first second or third year officials I would vote for. Tenure should not be rewarded as much as excellence. I think we’re struggling getting officials cause the system is watered down. 

I think you got to put in something like 8 to 10 years in to ref semi state. Doesnt matter if you have wrestled your whole life either. Should really change those rules honestly.

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There is a point system that is based on several factors. Overall experience, tournament experience, test scores, association meeting & clinic attendance, and a rating system by the schools (coaches/AD's). The level that can be worked (sectional, regional...) is then also based on previous experience.

 

Then of course, politics does come into play.

 

 

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Politics are obviously playing a huge part. Our “older” and let’s be honest many of our better refs arent going to hang around after 10 plus years if they have to wait another say 5 years to work a state tournament. I’m jut tired of hearing people crying and complaining when our system can...should.....and needs fixed. 

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1 hour ago, Cosgrove said:

I think you got to put in something like 8 to 10 years in to ref semi state. Doesnt matter if you have wrestled your whole life either. Should really change those rules honestly.

Quit commenting on something you do not have a clue on. 

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Joe that’s my question. Your right I don’t have a clue on this topic. All I know is people don’t know and wants to know. I hear all the time about we’re losing good refs and struggling getting refs. What is the system? How can it change? What needs changed? What’s in the works? Etc

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6 minutes ago, Jim calhoun said:

Politics are obviously playing a huge part. Our “older” and let’s be honest many of our better refs arent going to hang around after 10 plus years if they have to wait another say 5 years to work a state tournament. I’m jut tired of hearing people crying and complaining when our system can...should.....and needs fixed. 

The coaches vote is very important and a huge factor into referees advancing. I had a ref ask me to vote for him one time because he said he missed doing a regional because he didn't have enough votes. The votes also play a big factor into a referee getting a semi-state or state. Literally a couple 4's for a state level ref will ensure he does NOT get a state finals assignment. 


I'll let someone like @cbarnett comment on the full system of voting and advancement. I know the gist of the system, but do not want to provide false information.

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Officials Point Breakdown

50% -Coaches ratings(Coaches vote 1-5 for officials)

20% -Number of varsity matches on the season (7 or more to get full credit)

15% -Number of association meetings attended (4 or more to get full credit)

5% -Previous tournament experience in the past 6 years
          -State Finals = 5pts
          -Semi State = 4pts
          -Regional = 3pts
          -Sectional = 2 pts
          -Never worked tournament series = 1 pt

5% -Number of years licensed
          -7 or more years = 5pts
          -5-6 years = 4pts
          -3-4 years = 3pts
          -1-2 years = 2pts
          -First year = 1pt

5% - Number of time official worked the tournament in the last 6 years
          - 5-6 years = 5pts
          - 4 years = 4pts
          - 3 years = 3pts
          - 2 years = 2pts
          - 1 year = 1pt

Notes

These are points basically so for coaches ratings they can get up to 50 points, varsity matches up to 20 points, and so on. Officials at the semi-state level are looking at around a minimum of having 85 points in this system. That means they need to have basically a 4.1 average coaches vote along with most of the other criteria.

For the coaches vote they have to have a certain number of votes to qualify for advancement. On top of that after X amount of votes they will throw out the top X and bottom X votes. That means the more votes you get the more of your bottom votes get thrown out.

 

Advancement
Officials have to work 3 sectionals before a regional, 3 regionals before a semi state, and 3 semi states before working the state finals. You can work your first regional in the same year that you do your 3rd sectional, your first SS the same year that you do your 3rd regional, and your first state finals the same year that you do your 3rd semi state.

 

Basically if you have high enough ratings you can do a state tournament in 7 years. This used to be 10+ years.

 

State Finals 

12 state finals officials with 2 rookies

2 year rotation for each official.

After your two year rotation, the first year you can only do a sectional, the second year you can do a regional. The third year you can do semi-state and state again if you qualify

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Someone has mentioned to me that it is possible to reach an NCAA tournament, any division, quicker than it is our own State Tournament.  If this is indeed true, then we should seriously look at our system to correct this flaw. 
 

I will reference a very good young Official here by the name of Eric McGill.  He is doing numerous college matches at the Division 1 level.  Surely if he has a weekend open to do any level of our tournament, why in the world would we pass? If there are other high level officials available as well, let’s get them involved too. We know some of our better guys are getting up in age and they are constantly preaching that we are at a shortage. I agree we have to recruit young guys to get more involved, but let’s think outside the box too and recruit some experienced guys at the higher level as well.

 

Thoughts?

 

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The good thing is it takes less years now, as semi-recently(within the past 5-10 years) they changed it to the 7 year minimum. Before that it would take 10-12 years to get a state tournament. When it was 10-12 years it really hurt a lot of people that wanted to referee, but didn't want to wait out 10 years to maybe get a state finals. That is basically telling a kid while he might be good enough, he can't go to state his freshman and sophomore years.

 

In all honesty, I want the best refs at semi-state and state and don't care if they have been reffing for two weeks or 50 years. If a guy is good enough to ref at state they shouldn't be handcuffed because they are young. 

 

While there needs to be a "learning" period with the exposure people have to the sport now they can be well prepared to take the mat younger and younger. I would be in favor of having the advancement period allowing a minimum one year needed at each level to advance. Thus the first year a ref can do sectional, second year(pending votes and such) they can do a regional, 3rd year(pending votes and such) a semi-state, and 4th year a state. If the referee is good enough they should be able to advance faster with the coaches votes.

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11 minutes ago, Tiger1998 said:

As a current and new official in my 3rd year, I appreciate this discussion.


I am curious where the school rankings of me as an official are located and if I am privy to them. Anyone know?

 

You can find out which schools voted for you but not what they voted. The only person with this knowledge is RF. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/4/2020 at 11:48 AM, Y2CJ41 said:

The coaches vote is very important and a huge factor into referees advancing. I had a ref ask me to vote for him one time because he said he missed doing a regional because he didn't have enough votes. The votes also play a big factor into a referee getting a semi-state or state. Literally a couple 4's for a state level ref will ensure he does NOT get a state finals assignment. 


I'll let someone like @cbarnett comment on the full system of voting and advancement. I know the gist of the system, but do not want to provide false information.

 

So I just looked over my school ratings. I had 28 schools give a rating. Out of those 28 schools, there were only 9 schools that I actually had any involvement with officiating either varsity or JV this season.

 

If you don't know the official, then you shouldn't be giving them a rating.

 

 

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      Many officials put a lot of time into becoming a better official, including myself.  Working pre-season, post season, all levels from elementary state tournaments, middle school tournaments and national tournaments,  attend pre-season clinics, certification clinics, rules interpretation clinics. post season, association meetings.  We do to better ourselves.  Then we wait for coaches ratings, only to see ratings from schools we have not worked for, nor ever seen and some never heard of casting votes.  I know one of the 5's is tossed, and one of the 2's is tossed.   Averaging a 3.794118.    What if two of the schools that never saw one of those officials gave two's cause well that official was on the list and well they "just didn't remember them"  If they didn't vote the score would jump to over 3.90.    This could move an official up 10-15 spots and could mean the difference between being assigned just a sectional to potentially a semi-state.

 

   So with coaches vote being 50% of the score, should it not be an accurate score?   I think we would be willing to do the homework to determine every school we see, enter that info onto IHSAA.net. At that point, notification is sent to that school that that particular official had worked that event and at that time a vote could be cast.  Could be a 2 or could be a 5.   I think, this could also give a good indication of the officials overall ability to work 1. a dual meet, 2. a multi-dual event, a two day event, a individual bracketed tournament.  And would also determine favorable or non favorable coaches votes.  For instance,  if one coach disagrees with a call and sours him for the rest of the day and maybe he gives that official a 2 because of his displeasure, but 5 other coaches at the event give the official a 4, is he worthy of the 2 or the 4's??  and of course vice versa.   

    I definitely don't have all the answers, and I'm sure I have made some bad points but hopefully some good ones too.   We have seen in this post the system in front of us.  And that is what we have to work with.  We will continue to grind, and get better everyday for the betterment of the sport, teams, and individual wrestlers in order to get the best kids to the state level. 

 

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36 minutes ago, BigBlue02 said:

      Many officials put a lot of time into becoming a better official, including myself.  Working pre-season, post season, all levels from elementary state tournaments, middle school tournaments and national tournaments,  attend pre-season clinics, certification clinics, rules interpretation clinics. post season, association meetings.  We do to better ourselves.  Then we wait for coaches ratings, only to see ratings from schools we have not worked for, nor ever seen and some never heard of casting votes.  I know one of the 5's is tossed, and one of the 2's is tossed.   Averaging a 3.794118.    What if two of the schools that never saw one of those officials gave two's cause well that official was on the list and well they "just didn't remember them"  If they didn't vote the score would jump to over 3.90.    This could move an official up 10-15 spots and could mean the difference between being assigned just a sectional to potentially a semi-state.

 

   So with coaches vote being 50% of the score, should it not be an accurate score?   I think we would be willing to do the homework to determine every school we see, enter that info onto IHSAA.net. At that point, notification is sent to that school that that particular official had worked that event and at that time a vote could be cast.  Could be a 2 or could be a 5.   I think, this could also give a good indication of the officials overall ability to work 1. a dual meet, 2. a multi-dual event, a two day event, a individual bracketed tournament.  And would also determine favorable or non favorable coaches votes.  For instance,  if one coach disagrees with a call and sours him for the rest of the day and maybe he gives that official a 2 because of his displeasure, but 5 other coaches at the event give the official a 4, is he worthy of the 2 or the 4's??  and of course vice versa.   

    I definitely don't have all the answers, and I'm sure I have made some bad points but hopefully some good ones too.   We have seen in this post the system in front of us.  And that is what we have to work with.  We will continue to grind, and get better everyday for the betterment of the sport, teams, and individual wrestlers in order to get the best kids to the state level. 

 

I agree with most of the things that you mentioned. I am trying to figure out how to get rid of a few 1's that I am getting every year from coaches lol. I thought I was better than a 1 for all the hard work, effort, dissecting my matches and others matches, and staying "FIT" all year round would at least give me a 2 haha.

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The coach voting is an interesting system in practice. In theory it is smart. Coaches feedback is important and should be taken into consideration. But I have also noticed that I get votes from schools I didn’t even know existed.

 

Any ranking (1-5) from a school/coach that hasn’t seen you officiate is a bad vote for a true assessment.

 

I’ve also heard about refs getting repeated bad scores from the same coach for years that is holding a grudge. 

 

Just like wrestlers, officials get better with mat time and experience.

 

If you are a coach still giving a good ref a 1 or a 2 because of a questionable call a decade ago, you are part of the problem. Same goes for if you are giving your buddy a 5 because he has been a great official in the past but maybe his officiating career is on the decline. Base rating off of how they officiate in the present, not the past, and don’t vote for someone you haven’t seen.

 

I think I heard the NCAA had official evaluators, where some of the top older officials rank and assign the younger ones for major tournaments. I wonder if the IHSAA could get feedback from some of the heads of the associations or some of the more seasoned state level officials. Maybe they could also rank the eligible officials and that could be added to the score for evaluation.

 

At the end of the day, the IHSAA’s goal is to crown a state champion—the best wrestler in the state. Shouldn’t we also be working to get the best crew of refs to help in that process?

 

I don’t say this implying the guys there this weekend weren’t the best officials for the job. I know a handful of them and I’d agree they are some of the top officials, much better than myself currently--they are the ones I’ll go to to help get better. But this thread has brought up flaws with the process so I figured I’d offer my take on it and how to maybe improve it.

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One concern I have with the rating system is that the coaches get the officials mixed up sometimes and give a rating to the wrong person.   Id like to quote "Little Vito".  He got 29 votes and only had involvement with 9 of those schools this year.   BigBlue02 mentioned  he had votes from schools he didn't work this year never had worked.

 

The Scholar also does some officiating believe it or not.   I got 29 ratings votes this year.  (Note I didn't get any 1s) Yea.   

Here's some some of my stats.    Of the  29 ratings from different schools I received,   I only worked matches with 11 of those schools this year (JV or Varsity).

I just counted all the schools that I did see this year and I counted 40 schools.   I might of missed one or two.   But of those 40 schools,  I only got 11 ratings votes.   So only 27.5% of the coaches voted.   Also 18 of the 29 ratings, I had no matches with this year or 62%.

Also,  some of those schools could be ratings  with memories of prior seasons.  But  12 out of those 18 votes, I have never officiated with those schools in prior years either.   Obviously there's some confusion.   Some of the more experienced well know refs probably get more accurate  results since the coaches know them better.

 

In dual matches, we sign books that might help the coaches remember who we are,  but a lot of times they probably don't always remember the officials names. 

 

I was thinking of an idea.   Maybe print some business cards and give that to the coaches after the match.   I wonder if the coaches would appreciate this?   

 

PS:  This is only meant to be constructive, and is no criticism of the coaches, so please hold that against the refs in the ratings.

 

   

 

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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