This Crown Point Team…

[Y2CJ41]

44 minutes ago, MatTime said:

Not sure transferring totally falls under the IHSAA. That is a DOE issue. Pretty sure the rule is that as long as a family can provide transportation, they have open enrollment and choice of schools to attend. 

 

However, IHSAA makes it easier by not regulating or simply ignoring the $1 coaching staff loophole which allows kids to wrestle on school teams when they do not live in the school district. Anyone want to discuss that

Not all schools are open enrollment, there are MANY, such as Crown Point and Brownsburg that are closed districts in which you MUST live within the district to attend the school.

 

Most schools also allow employees of the school district to have their kids attend the school if they don't live within the district. What is considered an employee of a school can be different between school districts.

 

 

[MatTime]

Can not have a rule of MUST then have a loophole of $1 coaching staff to qualify someone as an employee that allows enrollment for kids outside of the district. It is a contradiction. 

 

And it is happening.

 

But it is also allowed when noone regulates it so, good for those that are operating within the rules that are currently in place. Let's not ignore that it is happening and contributes to the concentration of talent in a few programs. 

[bomber_bob]

9 minutes ago, MatTime said:

Can not have a rule of MUST then have a loophole of $1 coaching staff to qualify someone as an employee that allows enrollment for kids outside of the district. It is a contradiction. 

 

And it is happening.

 

But it is also allowed when noone regulates it so, good for those that are operating within the rules that are currently in place. Let's not ignore that it is happening and contributes to the concentration of talent in a few programs. 

IHSAA bylaws state that students may follow their parents who are "certified" employees of the school and the transfer must take place within 30 days of their start of employment. An Asst Coach would not be considered a certified position. 

 

If both AD's sign off on it, from my understanding, the IHSAA does not question it. 

[blueandgold]

10 hours ago, Adam_glass said:

I can’t see CP qualifying all 14, I think they get 12 or 13. At 175 I think White is pretty underrated; he’s very solid and has a good draw. He also has a win over a red hot and very dangerous Jesse Derringer, which is I think a more impressive win than he got credit for. If I were in charge of the rankings, I’d probably have him at fifth in this semi state field. I see him punching his ticket. The weight I think most stands in the way of CP getting 14 is 132. Guillermo has multiple wins over Sessa and has the state experience, and I can’t see him losing to Sessa. Also, at 150 I think Kaptur will struggle against Smith. I think Kaptur is very good on top but Smith is a bull on his feet and I think that ends up being the difference in their ticket round match. In the end, I see CP with 12, with non-qualifications at 132 and 150

I said they would qualify 13 in my original post. Baca unfortunately drew Zar Walker who is my dark horse to win 144.

[Adam_glass]

1 minute ago, blueandgold said:

I said they would qualify 13 in my original post. Baca unfortunately drew Zar Walker who is my dark horse to win 144.

Totally forgot 144, I think Walker is too much for a talented Baca to chew. So this drops my predicted qualifiers for CP down to 11. Baca, Sessa, and Kaptur all falling in the ticket round

[Y2CJ41]

20 minutes ago, MatTime said:

Can not have a rule of MUST then have a loophole of $1 coaching staff to qualify someone as an employee that allows enrollment for kids outside of the district. It is a contradiction. 

 

And it is happening.

 

But it is also allowed when noone regulates it so, good for those that are operating within the rules that are currently in place. Let's not ignore that it is happening and contributes to the concentration of talent in a few programs. 

It is up to each school district on what they allow as far as out of district students. 

[awill0352]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

What facts is this opinion based upon?

 

The IHSAA has had very little changes to the transfer process in the last 20 years.

I won't lie I cannot provide rock hard paper facts here, but I absolutely have and am seeing it happen in sports around Evansville.   I have noticed it is happening at a much higher rate than when I went to school 25 years ago.   We can't sit here and say it isn't happening.  It is just the way things are done now.    I am not mad about it, but I think it is really cool when a school sports team has success with kids that didn't have to transfer in to get that success. 

[Y2CJ41]

1 minute ago, awill0352 said:

I won't lie I cannot provide rock hard paper facts here, but I absolutely have and am seeing it happen in sports around Evansville.   I have noticed it is happening at a much higher rate than when I went to school 25 years ago.   We can't sit here and say it isn't happening.  It is just the way things are done now.    I am not mad about it, but I think it is really cool when a school sports team has success with kids that didn't have to transfer in to get that success. 

1. It's easier to pinpoint kids that transfer, even if it's in middle school. Information travels fast and this social media thing is easy to be a detective.

2. The IHSAA has had very little changes to their transfer rules over that time span. The changes are more in that parents/kids/coaches are playing the game more.

3. It has been happening for a long time, likely more now, but it wasn't as easy to see or find proof.

4. You would be surprised at the schools that have transfers on their team. Of the top 20 dual teams, I can spot at least 15 that have at least one kid most would call a transfer in their starting lineup.

[R. Kendrick]

Look back at the youth rankings from the last few years- you can see the movement.  22-23 Middle school rankings has 25 eighth graders listed.  Of that 25- 4 went out state for HS., 5 or so holdbacks, of the 16 left only 7-8 are enrolled at the same high school listed in the MS rankings.  

[DawgPoundRed]

2 hours ago, Adam_glass said:

Totally forgot 144, I think Walker is too much for a talented Baca to chew. So this drops my predicted qualifiers for CP down to 11. Baca, Sessa, and Kaptur all falling in the ticket round

I think Sonny and Kap pull it out. Sessa closed the gap at Al Smith. The Fans need Sessa vs DeMarco 3 please have extra security ready 

[The Professor Morgan]

I thought it was a relatively new thing as well until I talked to my neighbor who was a SQ as a junior for Whiteland and then used his grandmothers address to win a title at warren in 1980

[DawgPoundRed]

5 hours ago, BIGCATSontheMAT said:

All 14 for Mater Dei. But still get told we “recruit”

Success recruits itself, you want to win and be legends go with us you want to battle to qualify and wrestle a bad schedule go somewhere else 

 

Us Bburg center grove and mater dei are putting in the work and its showing on the mat. Parents want their kids around success 

[jets]

Interesting thread read - but again, I'll reiterate - once you start viewing the dominance from a CLUB perspective and take the high school affiliation out of it (not that the high school's don't have a certain impact on success...but I'd argue the CLUBS probably have more) - then the transfers and dominance make a little more sense. 

[blueandgold]

1 hour ago, DawgPoundRed said:

I think Sonny and Kap pull it out. Sessa closed the gap at Al Smith. The Fans need Sessa vs DeMarco 3 please have extra security ready 

I need Sessa vs. DeMarco expeditiously.

[THECountyFan]

6 hours ago, jets said:

Interesting topic of discussion. I think we all agree that to be at this elite level of wrestling, it goes beyond the high school room and into the Club scene...so maybe, the more appropriate question is, which CLUBS are feeding into these schools??

 

Crown Point - RWA (Region Wrestling Academy) 

Brownsburg - Red Cobra's ?

Center Grove - ??? 

Mater Dei - Maurer-Coughlin 

 

Just makes sense that these kids form a relationship rolling around all off-season together, and they want to be on the same high school team. 

 

Maybe this isn't the case...just what it appears from afar....

Maybe not the Clubs or Wrestling programs at all. School Systems like Crown Point, Brownsburg, Westfield building multi-million dollar facilities for athletes with ADs that pour money into athletics as well. Not to mention winning cultures in all sports as well as great education. A no brainer athletes that live near those areas.

[ILUV2PIN]

1 hour ago, DawgPoundRed said:

Success recruits itself, you want to win and be legends go with us you want to battle to qualify and wrestle a bad schedule go somewhere else 

 

Us Bburg center grove and mater dei are putting in the work and its showing on the mat. Parents want their kids around success 

"Parents want." 

[Justdo^it135]

8 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

What facts is this opinion based upon?

 

The IHSAA has had very little changes to the transfer process in the last 20 years.

 

I vaguely remember one of the English brothers catching a year ban from competition due to a transfer. Would have been somewhere around 05 - 06. Anybody else remember? I think it was from Merrillville to Crown Point, but it was so long ago I could have the details all wrong. 

[tyquhp13]

I believe it was portage not CP

[nmsmelby]

1 hour ago, Justdo^it135 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Justdo^it135 said:

I vaguely remember one of the English brothers catching a year ban from competition due to a transfer. Would have been somewhere around 05 - 06. Anybody else remember? I think it was from Merrillville to Crown Point, but it was so long ago I could have the details all wrong. 

 

 

 

It was my freshman year at Merrillville.  Would have been Wesley's Senior year.  I was told he tried to go to crown point for personal reasons.

Edited February 8 by nmsmelby

[navy80]

Put Brownsburg or Center Grove in the Fort Wayne semi state and they'll look like one of the greatest teams in history. Crown Point is the number one team in Indiana, but they also benefit from a weak postseason path this year.

[igotcaught]

22 minutes ago, navy80 said:

Put Brownsburg or Center Grove in the Fort Wayne semi state and they'll look like one of the greatest teams in history. Crown Point is the number one team in Indiana, but they also benefit from a weak postseason path this year.

Weak is a really poor word choice. CP had 11 champs at regionals and they were rewarded with 6 different semi final matches against top 5 state ranked opponents (4 ranked in the top 2). Brownsburg has 0 possible matchups this weekend against top 5 ranked opponents in the semis. Both teams have 4 wrestlers who will face top 10 ranked opponents just to get to state. This is not me arguing that East Chicago is as tough as Evansville. But to say Crown Point has a weak path at semi state is just untrue. Put Crown Point in Evansville semi state in exchange for brownsburg or center grove and I guarantee CP gets 10+ qualifiers these past 3 seasons. Center Grove literally sent 12 to state last year and Crown Point was significantly stronger than Center Grove was. Crown Point is actually at a disadvantage in some cases since Brownsburg and Center Grove are in the same regional because that splits them apart at semi state. Then Crown Point has to take Brownsburg and Center Grove both in the same day to win state in some cases. You would think if they had such an easy path that they would have less ranked opponents overall as a team in the ticket round and semis but it’s actually the opposite.
 

I’m also not saying it’s like this every year, this is the first year I decided to research both CP and BB’s path to state and was shocked to find overwhelming evidence that proved CP had just as much obstacles thrown at them as brownsburg. Yes I understand Haines vs Henderson is a death draw, but that could of been prevented if Haines took at least 2nd at regionals. Gibbs vs May is a crime but so is Sessa vs Rivera. Two top 8 guys battling to make it. 
 

All I’m saying is Crown Point is gonna have to come prepared Saturday and be ready to battle because this team race is far from over. Crown Point will have to earn this title just like Brownsburg and Center Grove. 

[CainBones]

4 hours ago, Justdo^it135 said:

 

I vaguely remember one of the English brothers catching a year ban from competition due to a transfer. Would have been somewhere around 05 - 06. Anybody else remember? I think it was from Merrillville to Crown Point, but it was so long ago I could have the details all wrong. 

One of the Moran brothers lost eligibility a couple of years ago for doing the same thing at one of the region schools, I believe CP. 

[tangarrray]

1 hour ago, CainBones said:

One of the Moran brothers lost eligibility a couple of years ago for doing the same thing at one of the region schools, I believe CP. 

it was both brothers transferring from CP to Portage and CP contested it. One brother was a senior so he was done. The younger brother won state the next season at Portage. 

[hook and half]

15 hours ago, jets said:

Interesting topic of discussion. I think we all agree that to be at this elite level of wrestling, it goes beyond the high school room and into the Club scene...so maybe, the more appropriate question is, which CLUBS are feeding into these schools??

 

Crown Point - RWA (Region Wrestling Academy) 

Brownsburg - Red Cobra's ?

Center Grove - ??? 

Mater Dei - Maurer-Coughlin 

 

Just makes sense that these kids form a relationship rolling around all off-season together, and they want to be on the same high school team. 

 

Maybe this isn't the case...just what it appears from afar....

 

This has been going on in the region for 25+ years.  The younger brother goes to different school from big brother, while the third brother goes to yet another school.  It just makes sense.  Barring any academic difference, why would a sentient parent send a kid to a school where his shot of excellence is diminished?

 

Brownsburg and Center Grove are strong on academics, have great communities and...wait for it...top-notch wrestling programs.  What's not to like?  if you have a kid who has a chance at reaching for the golden ring, you have to justify NOT sending them there.

 

It's a bit tougher in Evansville.  if you want excellence you pay a price for it, beyond the blood and sweat.  It's called tuition.  In spite of what you might hear, a Catholic school "athletic scholarship" exists only in imaginations.  It's kind of like the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus or "The Man";  fun to think about or to justify outcomes, but it doesn't really exist.

 

While Center Grove, Crown Point and Brownsburg have specific and identifiable advantages, they do not enjoy a permanent hegemony.  All three programs have high level wrestling academies to feed their schools, which are led by superior coaching staffs.  All it takes is a single coaching turnover and your incoming middle school champion is off to greener pastures.

 

What do the Big Three have in common?  Large populaton bases with affluent communties is the first ingredient; next-level wrestling academies is the second.  

 

Where else could this exist?

 

1.  North Indianapolis/Carmel/ Zionsville-  Big population, affluence, big schools.  Wrestling academy, communities?

2.  Jeffersonville/New Albany-  Big population (Louisville metro is massive; quality wreslers exist).  Affluence, community, academies--not sure.

3.  Fort Wayne-  Big population, check.  Affluence, community, academies, quality high school coaching staffs--not sure.

[Tommyboy]

7 hours ago, tangarrray said:

it was both brothers transferring from CP to Portage and CP contested it. One brother was a senior so he was done. The younger brother won state the next season at Portage. 

its crazy when a school that is known for accepting transfers, starts contesting kids that wanna leave ...and actually block a kid who was gonna be a senior.

 and make him miss his senior year.