blueandgold

I would say Vinny is more skilled than my brother Tristen from a technical standpoint, but Tristen certainly may be more successful from an overall career standpoint (youth to HS). T always belongs in the conversation for the best of anything. Made 195 finals as a sophomore.

Certainly one of the most skilled. He had an unbelievable pace, could take anyone down seemingly at will, and he racked up bonus points.

This topic arrives every year, but I want to be clear in my distinction this time around. Often, when we say "best," we tend to refer to the most accomplished—the wrestler who secured the most awards, titles, recognition, etc. When I say "best" here, I'm referring to the most skilled wrestler who possessed strength, athleticism, technical proficiency, good in every position, and was a fiery competitor. For a basketball reference, it's like Tracy McGrady against Charles Barkley, both are two of the best to ever win, yet prime T-Mac was more skilled and a better athlete at his peak, but Chuck was largely more successful. So, you can answer both. Who was the best (most skilled) and who was the best (most accomplished) to never win? My Picks Most Skilled: Fletcher Miller of Kokomo Most Accomplished: Connor Mullins of New Castle

Who is a wrestler you’ve seen that made you say, “Nah, he/she really like that!” In other words, who is the real deal? When was the moment you recognized this wrestler was HIM/HER? I’ve got a few recent names: Mike White (Lawrence North); #LikeThat Moment: Pinning Salas in the quarters. Rianne Murphy (Crown Point); #LikeThat Moment: Wrestling at Midlands while still in high school Jake Hockaday (Brownsburg); #LikeThat Moment: Dubbing Ashton Jackson in the 120 State final Tylin Thrine (New Castle); #LikeThat Moment: Pinning Reyes in the 2023 Semi-State final Noah Weaver (Rossville); #LikeThat Moment: First period tech in this year’s 220 state final A few retro names: Nick Lee (Mater Dei); #LikeThat Moment: Majoring Zach Davis at 2014 Team State Alex Cottey (Perry Meridian); #LikeThat Moment: Nearly tech pinning Lane Gilbert in under a minute in the 2020 113 State semis Brody Baumann (Mater Dei); #LikeThat Moment: Throwing Major with double overs in the 2021 160 State final Tristen Tonte (Perry Meridian/Warren Central); #LikeThat Moment: 360 Double off the whistle to Joey Mammolenti at 2015 Team State Mitch Sliga (Fishers); #LikeThat Moment: Pinning Kourtney Berry in the 2012 195 State final Tyler Fleener (Center Grove); #LikeThat Moment: Spladling Drew Hughes in the 2014 138 State quarters Jacob Stevenson (Franklin Community); #LikeThat Moment: Pinning Ben Stewart at the Traicoff Unaffiliated with Indiana, but throwing it in just because I’m thinking about it: Drake Houdashelt (Missouri); #LikeThat Moment: Pinning #1 Nick Dardanes (Minnesota) with a toe in at the 2014 Southern Scuffle

Indiana had their best showing at Fargo in the last decade last summer, and I’m happy about it. We talk a lot about class wrestling, academies, etc., but I’ve always wondered why is there not a greater emphasis for Freestyle and Greco at the high school and collegiate levels in terms of making it the standard? Girls and women wrestle Freestyle arguably their entire careers and the results show on the international level. The injuries one develops over time, especially competing at a high level in Folkstyle, ultimately can take away from Freestyle and Greco success later. What would it look like if youth, middle, and high school programs chose to develop kids in Freestyle and Greco more regularly than Folkstyle? What would our development be as a nation if the NFHS made Freestyle the default style of wrestling?

#2 is a really good question and it makes me wonder about something else: Do wrestlers who start late have higher peaks than those who started earlier in life? The reason I ask is because Deondre Wilson, Kris Rumph, Chico Adams, and Donte Winfield all started wrestling as freshman (Winfield started in 8th Grade), and all were state champions by the time they finished their careers, but even more interesting is that they saw success at the collegiate level and may have avoided significant wear and tear. Deondre Wilson attended junior college and was ranked as high as 2nd in the nation, but ultimately didn’t compete in the NJCAA tournament, however, he later beat Dan Vallimont, two-time All-American from Penn State, on the senior level; Donte Winfield also attended junior college and was an NJCAA All-American at Harper College; Chico Adams took several years off before returning and becoming an All-American at Lindsey Wilson in NAIA; and Kris Rumph was a two-time All-American at Wartburg in NCAA Division III. That being said, for those kids who started late and may wrestle six years in college, do they have a higher peak and/or potential advantage over others who’ve wrestled longer?

The portal has changed the game. From a student-athlete standpoint, it has given them greater freedom to find their fit.

I'm not sure what conversations coaches have with their kids in terms of competing at the next level, but I'm curious as to how likely any of you are to recommend junior college. With the recent announcement that junior college athletes will still have four years of eligibility at the NCAA level and the many testimonies mentioning how entering college later and more mature can make one more likely for success, does JUCO become a more viable destination for student-athletes? If we're looking at the benefits, I'd say it can allow one to get used to the grind of college while also facing high level competition before going somewhere bigger should they continue wrestling. I'd add that it could potentially be a great spot for those on the bubble kids who have in-state success but limited national competition/exposure.

Holy crap. @FCFIGHTER170 is so excited you would think Gavyn became national champ after wrestling six matches in the tournament including a 19-5 major decision in the semifinals for the greatest JUCO team of all time that had nine All-Americans, broke the points record, had 40% Indiana representation in its varsity lineup, and had a women’s team that also won the national championship and broke every record imaginable that will never be beat. RELAX OG.

GAVYN WHITEHEAD, NATIONAL CHAMPION

This right here. Thank you @maligned for the correction. Morning brain.

Not joking. That's a misstep from me.

A history tab that features: IHSAA State Championship Results Indiana High School Wrestling Individual History Team Record History Top State Team Finishes IN High School All-Americans (NHSCA) IN Olympic/World Team Members IN Collegiate All-Americans IN Wrestlers to MMA NFL Players the Wrestled from Indiana USA Wrestling All-Americans (Teams such as Dream Team, Academic, ASICS, or even Senior, Junior, 16U) Ripped all of these ideas from CalGrappler.

I tend to be on InterMat more than I am IndianaMat because of the different talks happening, but I think this website can be really informative and there is plenty of useful information distributed through meaningful back-and-forth when it takes place. Obviously, in all of Folkstyle wrestling, the ongoing debate surrounds parity and the unique scenarios others feel contribute to a lack of it, such as NCAA fifth-year eligibility considerations for all sports, full four-year eligibility for JUCO transfers, and NIL and how those things contribute to the “rich getting richer,” or the idea that a school such as Faith Christian is “dominant” but poaches talent and won’t leave AA to move up to AAA in Pennsylvania, and so on. In Indiana, these topics need to be addressed, but many don’t like to acknowledge or accept them, as well as the concept of change being poorly received by different segments of the community. So, if you don’t want to deal with it, a lot of times you make more lighthearted posts surrounding topics that mainly focus on the past and how good or cool those moments felt to witness. The InterMat board is a bit more ruthless, but it’s adults engaging with other adults, and they’re more explicit about things such as money, transferring, development, rankings, etc., all based on current results. I think sometimes, there are some who don’t want to engage in these debates here because it comes to a point where they know parents or coaches feel that they would be talking about a kid and there’s a chance they take it negatively, but others will toe that line without a care in the world because they’re watching wrestling. Most of what I talk about is mainly centered on systems and how unique situations or events impact those systems long-term and looking at how we go about improving them if necessary. On InterMat, I’ve asked about an NCAA Team Championship, the impact of COVID/NIL on programs, and why Division II or III can no longer challenge for the Division I championship. I think IndianaMat’s biggest point of contention to be addressed surrounds class wrestling and consolations, and it’s ongoing, and I’ve stated my position repeatedly. Beyond that, I’m not sure what subjects people are willing to approach or how to approach them. There’s a tremendous filter that is present here, and likely for good reason, so I think new topics would extend to other larger ongoing debates, such as freestyle on a national level, “opting out,” etc.

The IHSAA has 409 member schools, though the exact number with wrestling programs is unclear. According to a 2021 post by Greg Hughes, there were 213 Class A and AA wrestling programs representing Indiana’s small schools. Additionally, WTHR reported that 177 schools sponsor girls' wrestling, a rapidly growing sport in the state. While this number doesn’t fully reflect boys' wrestling participation, it's reasonable to estimate at least 200 boys' wrestling programs. Given this, I will structure this proposal concept into two divisions: AA (small schools) and AAA (large schools). This is long-winded, buckle up. Postseason Structure Three-week format: Sectionals, Regionals, and State Two-class system: AA (small schools) and AAA (large schools) 32 Sectionals (16 per class) 8 Regionals (4 per class) State Tournament with two class divisions Sectionals Bracket Type: 16-man pigtail bracket with wrestle-backs to 3rd place, place top 6 First-round losers are eliminated Full consolation bracket for quarterfinal losers Seeding Criteria: Based on regular season performance, considering head-to-head matchups, winning percentage, match count, etc. Advancement: Top 4 placers qualify for Regionals 5th and 6th place finishers serve as first and second alternates Regionals Bracket Type: 16-man bracket with wrestle-backs to 3rd place, place top 8 Full consolation bracket from the first round Seeding Criteria: Auto-seeded using pairing system based on Sectional finish (1st Place vs. 4th Place, 3rd Place vs. 2nd Place) Advancement: Top 6 placers qualify for State 7th and 8th place finishers serve as first and second alternates State Bracket Type: 32-man bracket with wrestle-backs to 3rd place, place top 8 Regional champions and regional runners-up receive first-round byes, first-round match-ups consist of Regional 3rd vs. Regional 6th, Regional 4th vs. Regional 5th Full consolation bracket from first round Duration: Three days, seven sessions (Thursday thru Saturday) Session 1 - Thursday Afternoon: First Round (Championship) Session 2 - Thursday Night: Second Round (Championship), First Round (Consolations) Session 3 - Friday Afternoon: Quarterfinals (Championship), Second & Third Round (Consolations) Session 4 - Friday Night: Semifinals (Championship), Blood Round (Consolations) Session 5 - Saturday Morning: Medal Round - 3rd, 5th, and 7th Place matches (Consolations) Session 6 - Saturday Afternoon: AA Finals (Championship) Session 7 - Saturday Night: AAA Finals (Championship) Strengths ✓ Three-Week Format Keeps the Postseason Manageable – Avoids an overly long postseason while maintaining a high level of competition. ✓ Two-Class System (AA & AAA) – Allows both small and large schools to have fair competition while still keeping the state’s best wrestlers competing at a high level. ✓ Sectionals: Well-Balanced Advancement & Wrestlebacks 16-man pigtail bracket ensures everyone gets a chance, while early eliminations maintain a competitive standard. Full wrestlebacks for quarterfinal losers means no one gets eliminated due to an unlucky early draw. Advancing the top 4 with alternates (5th & 6th) ensures depth while keeping the competition selective. ✓ Regionals: Tougher but Fair Advancement 16-man bracket with full wrestlebacks makes the competition deeper but fair. Auto-seeding (1st vs. 4th, 2nd vs. 3rd) rewards sectional placement while keeping balance. Top 6 qualify with 7th & 8th as alternates—this gives more true qualifiers compared to the traditional system. ✓ State: A Premier Event with Smart Structuring 32-man bracket keeps it deep and competitive. Regional champs & runners-up receive byes – rewards excellence but still requires winning tough matches. Consolations start immediately – this eliminates the problem of “win-or-go-home” rounds in early stages. Three-day, seven-session format allows proper rest while maintaining a high-energy finals atmosphere on Saturday night. Scenario for Visualization I'm going to use three parochial schools Cathedral, Roncalli, and Bishop Chatard due to their overlap with one another in several occurrences throughout the season but ultimately being in two different classes. Wrestler A (Cathedral, AAA): 40-1 Rank: #1 in AAA 113 Beat Wrestler C (Chatard, AA) in City Championship during current season Lost to out-of-state competition during current season Lost to Wrestler B (Roncalli, AAA) in dual meet during last season Indianapolis City Championship: 1st Holiday Tournament Championship (Al Smith): 1st Conference Championship: N/A (IHSAA Independent) Seed: #1 in AAA Sectional (Loss to B last season doesn't affect his top placement and H2H win over common opponent during current season gives him top seed) Wrestler B (Roncalli, AAA): 39-1 Rank: #2 in AAA 113 Lost to Wrestler C (Chatard, AA) in Conference Championship during current season Beat Wrestler A (Cathedral, AAA) in dual meet during last season Marion County Championship: 1st Holiday Tournament Championship (Mater Dei): 1st Conference Championship (Circle City): 2nd Seed: #2 in AAA Sectional (Win over A last season doesn't affect current standing and H2H loss over common opponent during current season gives A an advantage) Wrestler C (Chatard, AA): 30-4 Rank: #4 in AA 113 Beat Wrestler B (Roncalli, AAA) in Conference Championship during current season Lost to Wrestler A (Cathedral, AAA) in City Championship during current season Other losses to wrestlers in class or in different class City Championship: 2nd Holiday Tournament Championship (Mooresville): 3rd Conference Championship (Circle City): 1st Seed: #1 in AA Sectional (While he has wrestled both A & B in current season with a loss to the former and a win over the latter, neither result affects his seeding as he is in a different class altogether) SECTIONALS: First Step to State AAA Sectional Highlights (Cathedral & Roncalli Compete Here) Wrestler A (#1 seed) and Wrestler B (#2 seed) are proven to be among the best in their class and reach finals convincingly. Finals: Wrestler B defeats Wrestler A for sectional title Advancement: Both move on to Regionals as 1st & 2nd place finishers AA Sectional Highlights (Bishop Chatard Competes Here) Wrestler C (#1 seed) dominates through the bracket Advancement: Wins sectional title, easily qualifying for Regionals REGIONALS: Bigger Brackets, Tougher Matches AAA Regional Highlights Wrestler B (2nd in Sectional) faces a tough 3rd place finisher in Round 1 → Wins Wrestler B (1st in Sectional) faces a scrappy 4th place finisher from another sectional → Wins Quarterfinals: Wrestler A wins a tight match versus a sectional champion → Moves on to semis Wrestler B gets caught and loses a close one to a sectional runner-up → Falls to wrestlebacks Consolation Path: Wrestler B battles through wrestlebacks, avenges a loss, and eventually places 3rd Semifinals & Finals: Wrestler A handles another sectional champion in the semis and another in the finals, being crowned regional champion Advancement: Both Wrestler A & B finish in the top 3, each earning one of the six automatic qualifying bids to state AA Regional Highlights Wrestler C (1st in Sectional) dominates early rounds Semifinals: Wins a close match against another ranked opponent Finals: Falls just short but still finishes 2nd Advancement: Automatically qualifies for State STATE TOURNAMENT: The Best of the Best AAA Bracket (32-Man, Wrestler A & Wrestler B Compete) Round 1 Wrestler A (Regional Champion) earns a first-round bye Wrestler B (3rd at Regionals) faces a tough 6th-place regional finisher → Wins and advances Round 2: Wrestler A wins a tough match versus a regional 4th place finisher → Advances to quarterfinals Wrestler B wins a tough match versus a regional runner-up → Advances to quarterfinals Quarterfinal: Wrestler A wins another match, this time versus a regional runner-up → Advances to semifinals Wrestler B wins another match, this time versus a regional champion → Advances to semifinals Semifinal: Wrestler A wins another match, handling a regional champion → Advances to finals Wrestler B drops a close match to a regional champion → Falls to consolation semifinals Consolation Semifinals: Wrestler B drops another match to a wrestler who'd been taken out earlier → Falls to 5th Place Match 5th Place Match: Wrestler B closes out his season with a win to secure fifth place AAA 113 Championship: Wrestler A closes out his season with a win in the AAA 113-pound state championship match AA Bracket (32-Man, Wrestler C Competes) Round 1: Wrestler C (Regional Runner-Up) earns a first-round bye. Round 2: Wrestler C drops his first match to a regional 3rd place finisher → Falls to consolation round 2 Consolation Round 2: Wrestler C earns a victory to keep his season alive → Advances to consolation round 3 Consolation Round 3: Wrestler C earns another victory to keep his medal hopes alive → Advances to blood round Blood Round: Wrestler C earns another victory to be awarded a medal → Advances to consolation round 5 Consolation Round 5: Wrestler C takes a second loss after winning three straight → Falls to 7th Place Match 7th Place Match: Wrestler C earns fourth victory of the tournament to secure seventh place Final Results Wrestler A (51-2) → IHSAA AAA 113-pound State Champion Wrestler B (52-4) → IHSAA AAA 113-pound State 5th Wrestler C (41-7) → IHSAA AA 113-pound State 7th Hopefully, this visualization is able to capture the benefits of the two-class system, the importance of wrestlebacks, and how seeding affects the postseason journey. Key Takeaways: ✓ Seeding Accuracy: Wrestler A gets the top AAA seed due to H2H results over a common opponent, while Wrestler C’s performance in a different class ensures he isn’t unfairly impacted. ✓ Wrestlebacks Matter: Wrestler B recovers from an early regional loss to take 3rd at Regionals and 5th at State, proving why wrestlebacks are essential. Wrestler C also battles back from an early loss at State to place. ✓ Two-Class System Increases Opportunity: Without two classes, Wrestler C might not have qualified at all, but here he secures a state medal in AA. ✓ Strength of Schedule & Different Competition: Each wrestler faced strong in-class and out-of-class opponents, giving them a battle-tested resume for the state tournament. This system balances fairness and competition, allowing the best wrestlers to rise to the top without eliminating deserving talent too soon. In contrast, we can also observe a scenario that assesses how Indiana's current system affects all involved. In this scenario, Wrestler A (Cathedral, AAA), Wrestler B (Roncalli, AAA), and Wrestler C (Bishop Chatard, AA) all compete in a single-class system. This means: Sectionals: Top 4 advance to Regionals (Full wrestlebacks for quarterfinal losers). Regionals: Only semifinalists (top 4) advance. No wrestlebacks. Semi-State: Only semifinalists (top 4) advance. No wrestlebacks. State: 16-man bracket. First-round losers are out, quarterfinal losers can only wrestle back for 5th. This system increases the risk of an early loss eliminating a strong wrestler. SECTIONALS: Stage One Wrestler A (#1 seed) dominates and wins the sectional title. → Advances to Regionals Wrestler B (#2 seed) reaches the final but loses to A, finishing 2nd. → Advances to Regionals Wrestler C (#3 seed) loses in the semifinals to Wrestler B, drops to consolation. In wrestlebacks, he wins two consecutive matches to place 3rd. → Advances to Regionals The 4th place finisher also moves on. 5th and 6th place finishers serve as first and second alternates. ✓ All three advance to Regionals REGIONALS (Stage Two): NO WRESTLEBACKS – An Early Loss Ends Your Season Wrestler A wins his first-round match and reaches semifinals → Automatically qualifies for Semi-State Wrestler B wins his first-round match and reaches semifinals → Automatically qualifies for Semi-State Wrestler C draws a tough sectional runner-up in the first round. For the sake of being dramatic and to overemphasize, let's say he is winning the match, dominating even, and pins himself in a tilt while up 10 on his opponent thanks to a questionable call from the referee. There are NO wrestlebacks—his season is over. Despite having beaten multiple state-level competitors in the regular season, he does not qualify for Semi-State. ✗ Wrestler C is eliminated despite being one of the top competitors in his class. SEMI-STATE (Stage Three): Another No-Wrestleback Round Wrestler A wins his quarterfinal match and advances to the semifinals. → Qualifies for State Wrestler B wins his quarterfinal match and advances to the semifinals. → Qualifies for State Meanwhile, other strong wrestlers lose in the quarterfinals and are eliminated with no wrestlebacks. Only the four semifinalists move on. STATE TOURNAMENT (Stage Four): No Wrestlebacks for First-Round Losers Round 1: Wrestler A wins. → Advances to quarterfinals. Wrestler B gets beat in an upset and loses in the first round. He is eliminated immediately—no wrestlebacks. ✗ Quarterfinals: Wrestler A wins. → Advances to semifinals. Semifinals: Wrestler A loses a tough match, dropping to the 3rd Place Match. Final Placement: Wrestler A places 3rd. Wrestler B, despite being one of the best in the state, doesn’t place at all. Final Outcome in Single-Class System Wrestler Sectionals Regionals Semi-State State A (Cathedral, AAA) 1st → ✓ 1st → ✓ 1st → ✓ 3rd B (Roncalli, AAA) 2nd → ✓ 2nd → ✓ 2nd → ✓ ✗ First-round exit C (Chatard, AA) 3rd → ✓ ✗ First-round loss (no wrestlebacks) ✗ Eliminated ✗ Eliminated How the System Fails Wrestler C was eliminated at Regionals simply because he lost in the first round with no chance to wrestle back. Wrestler B was eliminated in the first round of state with no chance to prove himself in wrestlebacks. Despite being a state-level talent, Wrestler C doesn’t even make Semi-State, let alone State. Wrestler B, who placed 5th in the hypothetical two-class system, finishes with nothing in single-class. Without wrestlebacks, one bad match can end a deserving wrestler's season. How Two Classes and Full Wrestlebacks Fix This In the Two-Class System: Wrestler C competes against schools his size and makes AA State, finishing 7th. With Full Wrestlebacks: Wrestler C could have placed top 4 at Regionals and advanced to Semi-State. Wrestler B could have wrestled back at State and placed instead of being eliminated first round. While I used this scenario of three individuals from parochial schools of varying sizes in a large metropolitan city due to overlap, the larger conversation also speaks to the disparity of the single-class system as it pertains to opportunities for smaller schools. Large schools with extensive resources and depth are favored in a single-class while small schools with one or two standout talents are often eliminated before state which not only reduces parity and fairness in competition, but lowers morale, and ultimately participation, which could lead to the collapse of programs. Additionally, an extra week of competition before state increases injury risk and fatigue, further stacking the deck in favor of powerhouse programs with deeper lineups and year-round training. Ultimately, this round acts as an unnecessary bottleneck that limits state representation and reduces the overall quality and fairness of the tournament. The current system not only affects individual wrestlers but also threatens the overall health of high school wrestling in Indiana. Thank you for coming to my TEDx (they wouldn't give me a TED talk). #squabbleup

2013-14 and 2014-15 Oak Park-River Forest. In 2013-14, they were the top-ranked team in the nation with four state champions and five finalists and won their first of three (second overall) team state championships at the IHSA Team State Duals the next weekend. The most impressive thing about them, though, was they had 6 Fargo champions and 7 finalists, and I think 8-9 All-Americans. Unreal team.

What wrestler had the most difficult path to a title? Off the top of my head, Paul Petrov comes to mind immediately as he had to go through Erique Early, returning champ Mason Todd, and returning runner-up in Brenden Campbell in the finals. Who else?

@Jhall300 Here you go, fam. I remember right after he pinned him, I said, “He went Super Saiyan God.” Mans was otherworldly.

Still the match of the decade thus far.

Noah also hit a super duck in that match which was filthy too. He and Rader had a war.

What’s crazy is based on how it looked, I thought he had the cradle locked the other way and then switched his grip for the fall, but he posted his hand first, and was just strong as hell with his right arm holding Viduya’s head in place.

Brother, I was SCREAMING.

Bankers went NUTS!!!!

What’s the best move you’ve ever seen under the lights? I’m sure @TeamGarcia will appreciate my pick. I’m not CWA, but I’m for sure fw the #westsidecradle. Nastiest move under the lights tied with J-Mac’s headlock.

It’s all good. Ain’t no beef, at least not on my end. It just went further than it should’ve. It’s just wrestling at the end of the day and we all have our opinions. Nothing to crash out over.