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I see a lot of posts complaining and asking why Indiana doesnt' have wrestle backs. And since this is the time of the year we need them the most, I thought id construct the list of reasons/theories/hypotheses or plain conspiracies as why the great wrestlers of Indiana dont have the essential tool granted to every other state in their state series. Here's my list In David Letterman style!!!!!! 10.We cant be like Illinois theory: In Indiana's continuous competition with Illinois and the resulting inferiority complex, Indiana had to do something different and in the name of conservative stubborness, we found a great avenue to differentiate from the Land of Lincoln, "We wont have wrestlebacks like those woke liberal dudes to the west". 9. The Hunger Games theory: In the the modern action novel where each district's humble heroes travel to the capitol and are placed in an arena to fight each other to die or move on for the ultimate reward solely for the purpose of the audience's bloody lust for entertainment. Just like the Hunger games, we in Indiana travel to the capitol and are entertained by the Friday night circus called the ticket round where we love to see our humble wrestlers reach immediate state placing glory. But also, we love the sudden agony of defeat and seeing ranked wrestler's dreams and hope of destroyed abruptly. Wrestlers, "May the odds ever be in your favor". 8. Save the IHSAA beautiful mats: The IHSAA has great mats. Buy eliminating wrestle backs, were cutting out 29% of wrestling from the tournament thus saving our mats for future years. 7. Let's hang out at Tilted Kilt more theory: Not that I've ever been there, but by eliminating wrestle backs this opens up more time for the great wrestling fans of the Hoosier state to patronize the abundant downtown dining places like the Tilted Kilt (come on, you guys tipped big). We love places like "Dicks last resort, St Elmo's (love the Shrimp cocktail) or Fog De Chao for those with big appetite. Even though I was disappointed when the kid i was cheering for lost and didn't have a wrestle back match, I did have extra time and the consolation to sincerely enjoy some tasty pasta at Buca. The East Chicago equivalents are Portillo's or El Gran Taco. But Ive heard Region Rat recommend PoleKatz for their excellent bar food and service. In Evansville, the wrestling community and guys like TripleB utilizes the extra time to spend at "Taco Bell, Panda Express and Pizza King". 6. Indiana Loves Quality over Quantity hypothesis: We just want to see good matches and not be distracted by a plethora of matches created by "wrestlebacks". If it has the word consolation in it, then you're going to have to console us from watching it. The winner's bracket is just so much more watchable and cool. Why stymie the tournament with consolation matches. Is anybody watching the Ravens vs the Lions this weekend? Come on everybody likes to see perennial winners and champions like Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs and i guess that other team from California. But they ain't watching the consolation bowl. 5. The biased IHSAA board makeup theory: The IHSAA board, which has the overarching power to decide wrestling competition rules, is made up of former basketball, baseball and football coaches. We have very little wrestling representation on the board. Remember Indiana is a basketball state and those guys get power. When asked to include wrestle backs, they say we don't have baseball backs, basketball backs, tennis backs or football backs, why should wrestlers get wrestle backs? Its only a matter of fairness they say. We did have some hope when the swimming coach on the board did show some interest in the idea, and curiously asked are wrestling backs like the backstroke? 4. Sinister Y2CJ41 conspiracy theory: While Joe Caprino was thinking of ways to improve Indianamat participation and patronization, he conspired this idea in his lair at Victory Bay (yes it exists). With his capacity to pull strings in Indiana wrestling, and his overreaching influence on the gatekeepers of the wrestling community he, came up with the idea to create controversy and blowup discussion on the Indianamat forum by secretly eliminating wrestle backs in the state tournament. You notice "wrestle backs" is a common controversial topic????? You ever wonder why we don't have class wrestling????? Just saying i heard something on Qanon. I swear. 3. I didnt have wrestle backs when i wrestled: How many grizzled veterans of the Indiana state tournament post they love the format, and that we have the best tournament in the country. Even though many were scarred by their bad draws and robbed of placing or their lots were thrown wheel of luck. Its really just a psychological perception to block progress because they didn't have the same advantage. Old stuck in its ways says: "Why should these young cocky, "soft" spoiled wrestlers have an advantage we didn't. It's just not fair". Thus were continually stuck in this circular state of no progress. These are the same dudes that walked to school 6 miles in the snow and loved it. , 2. We just arent trying or working hard enough theory!! Under the current format, we will get bad draws and the better wrestlers wont advance. But this could be overcome if everybody worked more or tried harder. If every Indiana wrestler tried harder, we would never have a bad draw regardless of no wrestlebacks. This is also the same reason we haven't found Sasquatch yet. 1. The Ricky Bobby Impact: "If you aren't first, you're last". That's the message we're getting. Anyway, it's all about finding the one champion. That's what counts. If you lose to the champion, then it doesn't really matter when you lost to him. You're not important because you're not the champion. See #6 on consolation. Yes, those silly non- first place medals are just over glorified system of participation trophies. Why should we spend more time on silly consolation wrestle backs that's only irrelevant purpose is to separate the losers.

You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave

Keep current setionals then go to 8 regionals 32 man brackets at state Full wrestlebacks from Regionals on LFG!!!!!

The semi state alternate rule needs to be changed. The guy who lost to the champ 1st rd of regionals who was probably a sectional 4 gets pulled back. We can do better

TRIPLE_B EVANSVILLE SEMI-STATE SPECTACULAR PREVIEW!!!!!! This year Trips will hit turn the big 4-4 on Saturday, Mrs 3B will be in attendance for her first SS ever, will this be the greatest Evansville SS of all time?? Dirty brackets, blood round matches that feel like your cutting fresh onions, and all around excitement will fill The FORD Saturday February 10th. Evansville is THE BEST Semi-State in the land!! 224 wrestlers will be battling for 56 Golden tickets to Indy…..errrr…. Back to Evansville!!! Out of those 224, 138 are Semi-State ranked and 98, I Said 98 (!!!!!!) are ranked in the IndianaMat State Rankings!! Lawwwwwdy have Mercy!!!! This might be the big one Elizabeth!!!! View full article

My Predictions no bias.... all East Noble kids win semi state

Kinda like reaching back on bottom…some things are best learned through experience.

Are you kidding me!? This is the most badass, and miserable, 4 weeks of the year. I feel blessed my boys have this opportunity to try and advance week after week. Make it through and get rewarded with the next tournament where it becomes tougher and tougher to advance. No safety-net wrestlebacks, win or your crushed. Misery or relief. It is not for the soft. This is what makes placing in Indiana really mean something.

IHSAA …. Statement . EVER !

its crazy when a school that is known for accepting transfers, starts contesting kids that wanna leave ...and actually block a kid who was gonna be a senior. and make him miss his senior year.

Thanks for informative input

Elias Cressell from Wabash

Should be the person beaten by the 4th place finisher.

The other thing other states do as well is have wrestlebacks. Ensuring the most deserving competitors, on that day, are the ones advancing to the next round. I often hear people say that wrestlebacks are needed to ensure the best wrestlers move on. I just want to see the wrestlers who competed the best, on that day, move on rather than have a random draw play a hand in deciding who qualifies.

Over the decade I’ve been on this site and of all the topics & discussions & Threads I’ve been apart of and I’ve taking over, of all the characters I’ve done, of all the innovations . This right here is Classic ! The deadly, most terrifying, like it made up in Hollywood . Maybe I call it …. Cue the suspense drum right here . Godzilla vs. The Sinister Y2CJ41 conspiracy theory , So wicked it sounds . Sticks out like a movie title . Who wins , I’m taking The Sinister !

Jarred may be underrated in the greatest ever discussions because of how loaded we were with talent at his size during that period. He proved his potential out of state but didnt stick to the wrestling path to raise his profile. But he's such a phenomenal athlete. He's the best MMA strawweight in the world and arguably the best MMA fighter ever out of Indiana (respect to Jon Fitch too).

I’ve been saying this for years, although with a slight twist. I’d rather see us combine the current sectional and regional into one weekend and then head to the current semi-state format

Wrestlebacks would help but keep in mind that no matter what fix you try to add, there are still going to be situations where a higher seeded person is stuck close to 2 other highly seeded individuals geographically and therefore will end up with a bad draw somehow. There could theoretically be the top 5 seeds in the state at the same sectional, where there is no way to "change the system" so that they all can be state placers Final tournaments are setup geographically by the IHSAA, not by skill level or seeding Individuals change year to year, what may seem like a ridiculous sectional group of teams now may not be in another 10 years, or perhaps wasn't 10 years ago. IHSAA is not going to schedule based on the prevailing winds Seeding is impressively accurate, but is only a subjective number assigned by knowledgeable individuals. It is not 100% and should not be considered as anything more than a reference. A #2 and a #5 seed may sound like a large gap, but in reality if the two have not wrestled before than the #5 could be better On any given day, wrestling is a sport where upsets CAN happen. It is not IHSAA job to penalize the underdog that has won, or to consider how the "favorite" should deserve another chance Yes, it's personal because they are our kids. Yes, we want to see the best kids represented at state finals. Just remember that for every wrestler that you think "should" be there, there is a wrestler that "shouldn't" be there in your opinion but has earned their way by winning against the opponents placed in front of them Let's celebrate the warriors that are still standing. It may not be the best system, but it's what we have. Imperfect yet beautiful

What about wrestlebacks makes them soft? To advance at semistate, you now need to win two matches. You can actually go 1-5 after this at the rest of SS and State if you try hard enough (this is true), but you only need to win 2 matches to be guaranteed another 3. If you have wrestlebacks, two matches doesn't cut it. Every advancer to State would need to win a minimum of 3 matches at SS to qualify. If you win in the second round you would need to win a third match, either the semifinal or in the wrestleback against a tough opponent if you lost the semifinal. Or if you lost in the second round, you would need to win an additional two tough matches in the wrestleback to qualify. What is soft about that?

Why not just eliminate regionals? Combine the two sectionals from each regional and make one big sectional. Regionals is the most redundant part of the tournament. No reason to have a month long state tournament.

No wrestlebacks! We didn't get to in my day whippersnappers!

Absolutely no bias at all

besides not having wrestlebacks, what about the Indiana State tournament series is subpar?

In my view it’s not exactly the same when comparing score judged or clock timed sports with that of athlete vs athlete ones. Tennis and wrestling are unique when compared to the other individual sports and due to the bracketing dynamic more similar to the set up of the other team sports. Tennis just happens to allow far fewer competitors per team to compete compared to 14 weights in wrestling which gives them more wiggle room on state series rounds. In most individual sports you win or place high you move on but certain cut times or cut scores are also used to fill the additional advancement spots. You can have a large field of teams and athletes in that dynamic. Not to turn this into a seeding or wrestleback thread but the advancement is different compared to a bracketed athlete vs athlete competition. You can only fit so many athletes and teams into a day when you are at the mercy of athlete vs athlete competition. So yes most individual sports can skip a level and save time since more can be packed into a shorter time frame due to how many can compete at a time and or how many actual rounds you need to have. Tennis and wrestling are the two individual sports that just don’t have as much of that luxury, nor do the team sports. We can also say other states do it for wrestling but when they cut the field in thirds or fourths or more by classing it you have a lot fewer competitors to fit in each round of the state series. So yes they could likely skip the added round. I do think Regionals a a little short of a state series round, but I assume it there to help balance or somewhat clean up the two sectionals results before the top 4 are placed into the bigger grind of semi-state.

Can you imagine how much complaining there would be about bad draws then.

I predict a lot of Bulldogs winning championships, bad parking and a terrible speaker system

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember Jarred Brooks had a killer final year. State champ and Super 32 Champ beating Nathan Tomaselo. Not many of our Indiana guys have been able to pull that one off.

It's not about giving a certain individual a second chance, but rather giving every individual the same chance. How is requiring all individuals to qualify against the entire bracket verses only their quarter bracket penalizing them?

Hey there everyone, Mark here at the Ford Center and long time wrestling fan. I am the main point of contact between the IHSAA and the Ford Center, so on our end this is my event. Wanted to share a little info for those making the trip next weekend. Feel free to hit me up with any questions as it relates to the arena or Evansville in general. Can't wait! IHSAA Know Before You Go.pdf

I think there is some validity to your frustrations and desires for improving the State Tournament. But to say it's subpar?? c'mon man. I think the wrestling community is it's own worst enemy and likes to fixate on everything that is wrong with the sport and takes for granted many of the great things about our State tournament, and sport in general. There are so many things that are special about our State Tournament and compared to other some other states, is something that we need to cherish and be proud of. Is it perfect? No....wrestle-backs would be great, arguments can be made for a 3 week tournament, class wrestling, a new alternate protocol, more state qualifiers, etc.....but I think it's a little over-the-top to suggest that our tournament series is subpar.

People won’t admit it, but there is a lot of luck involved in the random pairing format. The fact that you can have a 1-3 record at the state finals and be considered top 8 in the state is kind of ridiculous. The whole tournament series needs realignment. A lot of people also don’t like change or don’t want to see better for future generations, so they think it’s worth it to compete in a flawed system that doesn’t truly measure how good you actually are but how lucky you get. There is ZERO reason Hunter May and Tommy Gibbs or Preston Haines and Ty Henderson should be wrestling in the quarterfinals on Saturday. They’ve separated themselves from the rest of the state aside from the #1s ahead of them and this is how they’re rewarded.

This is a great example of reason #3 in my recent post on why "Indiana doesn't have wrestlebacks". Thanks for the content JStits. Im going to edit my post and add "soft" to the description. 3. I didnt have wrestle backs when i wrestled: How many grizzled veterans of the Indiana state tournament post they love the format, and that we have the best tournament in the country. Even though many were scarred by their bad draws and robbed of placing or their lots were thrown wheel of luck. Its really just a psychological perception to block progress because they didn't have the same advantage Why should these young cocky spoiled wrestlers have a progressive advantage we didn't. It's just not fair, thus were continually stuck in this circle state of no changes or progress. These are the same dudes that walked to school 6 miles in the snow and loved it.

Which makes no sense since that is probably the 4th placer from sectionals. It should go off the highest placer of the sectionals of the 1st placer that didn't qualify. Or... have wrestlebacks.

Just use maligned's tie breaker criteria for team state scoring. REGIONAL 5th & 6th criteria, in order: 1. Highest sectional placement 2. Higher sectional difficulty (Category level) 3. Highest season win percentage (minimum 10 matches) 4. Most season wins 5. Coin flip

Great write up @TripleB 9 of 10 ️ 1 error in my expert eyes of all #TheCounty wrestlers coming and going . 144 isn’t a Ford LOCK . Two great wrestlers going at in multiple weeks, might see 3rd match at State . Reasoning… that match was 1-2 seconds from going into OT and who knows the outcome . It was tied 1-1 for 99% of that match . It was real tight situation. I watched it. Both wrestlers had potential takedowns on each other if the ref didn’t call potential danger with knees . Glad we should see a rematch in the finals at Semi State . Just my 2 cents, 1 cent, .50 of a cent, .25 of a cent . I’m not a

The Regional Champ is really the one that gets the bad draw. Your reward for winning regional? A top 5 wrestler...

I appreciate the compliment, especially coming from the "legendary" content creator GOAT. Sinister Y2CJ41 does have a ring to it. I might have to patent that.

By Anna Kayser One year after losing in the quarterfinals and wrestling his way back to fifth place at 106 pounds at the IHSAA State Finals, Lake Central senior Mason Jones is looking to leave it all on the mat. Throughout his high school career, he hasn’t taken too many losses. Eleven as a sophomore, two a year ago – the second coming in that pivotal quarterfinal match that would inevitably propel him into his final high school campaign – and none thus far as he gears up for semi-state this coming weekend. If you’re counting along, that means Mason Jones has racked up a lot of wins through three years as a varsity wrestler for Lake Central. There was just more to learn in the losses. “I feel like I took away from just my overall season last year that there was always more I could do, more I could work towards especially when I came up short,” Jones said. “Last year at state, it felt like everything stopped and that it was all over. I had to take some time, sit down and remember that it wasn’t over, there was still more to go.” View full article

Let's just stick with trying to get wrestle backs first. Don't get all crazy!

Weak is a really poor word choice. CP had 11 champs at regionals and they were rewarded with 6 different semi final matches against top 5 state ranked opponents (4 ranked in the top 2). Brownsburg has 0 possible matchups this weekend against top 5 ranked opponents in the semis. Both teams have 4 wrestlers who will face top 10 ranked opponents just to get to state. This is not me arguing that East Chicago is as tough as Evansville. But to say Crown Point has a weak path at semi state is just untrue. Put Crown Point in Evansville semi state in exchange for brownsburg or center grove and I guarantee CP gets 10+ qualifiers these past 3 seasons. Center Grove literally sent 12 to state last year and Crown Point was significantly stronger than Center Grove was. Crown Point is actually at a disadvantage in some cases since Brownsburg and Center Grove are in the same regional because that splits them apart at semi state. Then Crown Point has to take Brownsburg and Center Grove both in the same day to win state in some cases. You would think if they had such an easy path that they would have less ranked opponents overall as a team in the ticket round and semis but it’s actually the opposite. I’m also not saying it’s like this every year, this is the first year I decided to research both CP and BB’s path to state and was shocked to find overwhelming evidence that proved CP had just as much obstacles thrown at them as brownsburg. Yes I understand Haines vs Henderson is a death draw, but that could of been prevented if Haines took at least 2nd at regionals. Gibbs vs May is a crime but so is Sessa vs Rivera. Two top 8 guys battling to make it. All I’m saying is Crown Point is gonna have to come prepared Saturday and be ready to battle because this team race is far from over. Crown Point will have to earn this title just like Brownsburg and Center Grove.

Put Brownsburg or Center Grove in the Fort Wayne semi state and they'll look like one of the greatest teams in history. Crown Point is the number one team in Indiana, but they also benefit from a weak postseason path this year.

No need to debate... You are wrong. It will NEVER happen.

Making wrestle backs doesn’t make kids soft? For example, should Hunter May or Tommy Gibbs not be able to wrestle back to the state tournament? The number 2 and number 3 kid in the state aren’t qualifying because of poor tournament structure. I’m sure Hunter and Tommy both have worked as hard as they possibly could. Again, tradition doesn’t justify IHSAA not looking at different routes to produce the best state tournament possible. I understand there won’t ever be a “perfect” tournament but there can 100% be more effort put into giving us a better tournament series.

This gave me an idea. If you want to motivate your kids, send me a PM and I'll put up a post picking against your kids. Price is two hot dogs.

Then I don't know what he was trying to say...

It's never really been a good thing for his gas tank. Against these top guys he has got to find a way to control the pace of the match until he finds an opening to explode for a few points. In the matches where they have keep the pace up, even when he has an early lead, it tends to not turn out great for him in the last period.

i should really make some predictions

Look back at the youth rankings from the last few years- you can see the movement. 22-23 Middle school rankings has 25 eighth graders listed. Of that 25- 4 went out state for HS., 5 or so holdbacks, of the 16 left only 7-8 are enrolled at the same high school listed in the MS rankings.

Is the suggestion that the IHSAA should change the state series each year to ensure that the kids from whomever the powerhouses schools may be at the time get into the state tourney? An unreasonable ask. IHSAA can do a lot more to improve the the sport, wrestlebacks seems to be a more reasonable ask, but redistributing the schools to appease the powerhouses?