Eliminate Semi-State

[blueandgold]

Semi-State is an extremely unnecessary stage for wrestling. It’s taxing on the wrestlers, coaches, and fans alike between the added weigh-ins, travel, and scheduling conflicts (All-Star Weekend or other events). Keep in mind we are the only wrestling state in the nation with a four-stage tournament series and the only individual IHSAA-sanctioned sport with a semi-state level as Swimming only has Sectionals, Sectional Finals, and State, while T&F has Sectionals, Regionals, and State. I understand it’s a meant to replicate the NCAA Final Four in basketball or football (where the concept actually works) on top of being a money-grab, but it’s pointless in wrestling.

 

For a potential alternative, I’d say to increase the bracket size to 32 and combine sectionals, then combine regionals.

[ZZ TOP]

36 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

Semi-State is an extremely unnecessary stage for wrestling. It’s taxing on the wrestlers, coaches, and fans alike between the added weigh-ins, travel, and scheduling conflicts (All-Star Weekend or other events). Keep in mind we are the only wrestling state in the nation with a four-stage tournament series and the only individual IHSAA-sanctioned sport with a semi-state level as Swimming only has Sectionals, Sectional Finals, and State, while T&F has Sectionals, Regionals, and State. I understand it’s a meant to replicate the NCAA Final Four in basketball or football (where the concept actually works) on top of being a money-grab, but it’s pointless in wrestling.

 

For a potential alternative, I’d say to increase the bracket size to 32 and combine sectionals, then combine regionals.

Can you imagine how much complaining there would be about bad draws then. 

[MattM]

1 hour ago, blueandgold said:

the only….four-stage tournament series and the only individual IHSAA-sanctioned sport with a semi-state level

In my view it’s not exactly the same when comparing score judged or clock timed sports with that of athlete vs athlete ones. Tennis and wrestling are unique when compared to the other individual sports and due to the bracketing dynamic more similar to the set up of the other team sports.  Tennis just happens to allow far fewer competitors per team to compete compared to 14 weights in wrestling which gives them more wiggle room on state series rounds. 

 

 In most individual sports you win or place high you move on but certain cut times or cut scores are also used to fill the additional advancement spots. You can have a large field of teams and athletes in that dynamic.  Not to turn this into a seeding or wrestleback thread but the advancement is different compared to a bracketed athlete vs athlete competition.  You can only fit so many athletes and teams into a day when you are at the mercy of athlete vs athlete competition.  

 

So yes most individual sports can skip a level and save time since more can be packed into a shorter time frame due to how many can compete at a time and or how many actual rounds you need to have.  Tennis and wrestling are the two individual sports that just don’t have as much of that luxury, nor do the team sports.   

 

We can also say other states do it for wrestling but when they cut the field in thirds or fourths or more by classing it you have a lot fewer competitors to fit in each round of the state series.  So yes they could likely skip the added round.  

 

I do think Regionals a a little short of a state series round, but I assume it there to help balance or somewhat clean up the two sectionals results before the top 4 are placed into the bigger grind of semi-state. 

Edited February 8 by MattM

[slice6060]

No need to debate...

 

You are wrong.

 

It will NEVER happen.

[blueandgold]

52 minutes ago, slice6060 said:

No need to debate...

 

You are wrong.

 

It will NEVER happen.

Then Indiana wrestling will continue to have a subpar state tournament series

[Cameron10483]

Let's just stick with trying to get wrestle backs first. Don't get all crazy!

[decbell1]

I’ve been saying this for years, although with a slight twist. I’d rather see us combine the current sectional and regional into one weekend and then head to the current semi-state format 

[SIACfan]

12 hours ago, MattM said:

We can also say other states do it for wrestling but when they cut the field in thirds or fourths or more by classing it you have a lot fewer competitors to fit in each round of the state series.  So yes they could likely skip the added round. 

 

The other thing other states do as well is have wrestlebacks. Ensuring the most deserving competitors, on that day, are the ones advancing to the next round.

 

I often hear people say that wrestlebacks are needed to ensure the best wrestlers move on. I just want to see the wrestlers who competed the best, on that day, move on rather than have a random draw play a hand in deciding who qualifies.

[TripleB]

Keep current setionals then go to 8 regionals

 

32 man brackets at state

 

Full wrestlebacks from Regionals on

 

LFG!!!!!

[bomber_bob]

12 hours ago, blueandgold said:

Then Indiana wrestling will continue to have a subpar state tournament series

besides not having wrestlebacks, what about the Indiana State tournament series is subpar?

[julio]

Oh my God, I have been saying this for years about going to a 3 week tournament.   

[SIACfan]

Whether it is a 3 tier or 4 tier structure makes no difference. Going to a 3 tier structure is only going to condense the steps.

 

The only thing that will make a difference or not is if wrestlebacks are added or not. A 3 tier structure without wrestlebacks would change nothing.

[Banks]

Wrestle backs is the answer to all the problems. 

Edited February 8 by Banks

[busstogate]

12 hours ago, decbell1 said:

I’ve been saying this for years, although with a slight twist. I’d rather see us combine the current sectional and regional into one weekend and then head to the current semi-state format 

That would be the same as Illinois's first round (Regionals) and second round (Sectionals).  The sad thing for Illinois is that because of their three-class system, a lot of the regionals might have around six-eight teams tops and heavy forfeits from a lot of those teams unable to field full rosters. Their sectional is two days with full double-elimination wrestlebacks.  I would take the two consecutive days in a one week-span over having to show up for successive Saturdays.

Edited February 8 by busstogate
hyphenventalating

[TeamGarcia]

IHSAA …. Statement . 
 

 

EVER !

[AJ]

What was the catalyst that caused the sectional and regional changes from about 20 years ago.  We drastically cut the number of sectionals by combining them and then making new regionals.

[Wrestling Scholar]

Why not just eliminate regionals?  Combine the two sectionals from each regional and make one big sectional.  Regionals is the most redundant part of the tournament.  No reason to have a month long state tournament.  

[R. Kendrick]

17 minutes ago, AJ said:

What was the catalyst that caused the sectional and regional changes from about 20 years ago.  We drastically cut the number of sectionals by combining them and then making new regionals.

There were number of 4 team sectionals, and kids were not even having to wrestle a match to advance to Regional due to FF's.  I think one year around 2000 there was a 4-team sectional that had Zero 103 lbers... 

Edited February 8 by R. Kendrick

[JStits]

Are you kidding me!?

This is the most badass, and miserable, 4 weeks of the year.

I feel blessed my boys have this opportunity to try and advance week after week.

Make it through and get rewarded with the next tournament where it becomes tougher and tougher to advance. 

No safety-net wrestlebacks, win or your crushed. Misery or relief.

It is not for the soft.

This is what makes placing in Indiana really mean something.

[AndyStJ]

1 hour ago, JStits said:

No safety-net wrestlebacks, win or your crushed. Misery or relief.

It is not for the soft.

This is what makes placing in Indiana really mean something.

What about wrestlebacks makes them soft?

 

To advance at semistate, you now need to win two matches. You can actually go 1-5 after this at the rest of SS and State if you try hard enough (this is true), but you only need to win 2 matches to be guaranteed another 3.

 

If you have wrestlebacks, two matches doesn't cut it. Every advancer to State would need to win a minimum of 3 matches at SS to qualify. If you win in the second round you would need to win a third match, either the semifinal or in the wrestleback against a tough opponent if you lost the semifinal. Or if you lost in the second round, you would need to win an additional two tough matches in the wrestleback to qualify.

 

What is soft about that?

 

[Wrestling Scholar]

1 hour ago, JStits said:

Are you kidding me!?

This is the most badass, and miserable, 4 weeks of the year.

I feel blessed my boys have this opportunity to try and advance week after week.

Make it through and get rewarded with the next tournament where it becomes tougher and tougher to advance. 

No safety-net wrestlebacks, win or your crushed. Misery or relief.

It is not for the soft.

This is what makes placing in Indiana really mean something.

This is a great example of reason #3 in my recent post on why "Indiana doesn't have wrestlebacks".  Thanks for the content JStits.  Im going to edit my post and add "soft" to the description.

 

 

3. I didnt have wrestle backs when i wrestled:  How many grizzled veterans of the Indiana state tournament post they love the format, and that we have the best tournament in the country.  Even though many were scarred by their bad draws and robbed of placing or their lots were thrown wheel of luck. Its really just a psychological perception to block progress because they didn't have the same advantage Why should these young cocky spoiled wrestlers have a progressive advantage we didn't.   It's just not fair, thus were continually stuck in this circle state of no changes or progress.   These are the same dudes that walked to school 6 miles in the snow and loved it.

Edited February 8 by Wrestling Scholar

[JStits]

Funny

[blueandgold]

5 hours ago, bomber_bob said:

besides not having wrestlebacks, what about the Indiana State tournament series is subpar?

Four stages/scheduling, random draws/lack of seeds. In reality, most wrestlers who reach the ticket round are state-level wrestlers. I’m with Triple B, make state a 32-man bracket and add wrestlebacks.

[blueandgold]

1 hour ago, AndyStJ said:

What about wrestlebacks makes them soft?

 

To advance at semistate, you now need to win two matches. You can actually go 1-5 after this at the rest of SS and State if you try hard enough (this is true), but you only need to win 2 matches to be guaranteed another 3.

 

If you have wrestlebacks, two matches doesn't cut it. Every advancer to State would need to win a minimum of 3 matches at SS to qualify. If you win in the second round you would need to win a third match, either the semifinal or in the wrestleback against a tough opponent if you lost the semifinal. Or if you lost in the second round, you would need to win an additional two tough matches in the wrestleback to qualify.

 

What is soft about that?

 

People won’t admit it, but there is a lot of luck involved in the random pairing format. The fact that you can have a 1-3 record at the state finals and be considered top 8 in the state is kind of ridiculous. The whole tournament series needs realignment. A lot of people also don’t like change or don’t want to see better for future generations, so they think it’s worth it to compete in a flawed system that doesn’t truly measure how good you actually are but how lucky you get. There is ZERO reason Hunter May and Tommy Gibbs or Preston Haines and Ty Henderson should be wrestling in the quarterfinals on Saturday. They’ve separated themselves from the rest of the state aside from the #1s ahead of them and this is how they’re rewarded.

[bomber_bob]

4 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

Four stages/scheduling, random draws/lack of seeds. In reality, most wrestlers who reach the ticket round are state-level wrestlers. I’m with Triple B, make state a 32-man bracket and add wrestlebacks.

I think there is some validity to your frustrations and desires for improving the State Tournament. 

 

But to say it's subpar?? c'mon man. 

 

I think the wrestling community is it's own worst enemy and likes to fixate on everything that is wrong with the sport and takes for granted many of the great things about our State tournament, and sport in general. There are so many things that are special about our State Tournament and compared to other some other states, is something that we need to cherish and be proud of. 

 

Is it perfect? No....wrestle-backs would be great, arguments can be made for a 3 week tournament, class wrestling, a new alternate protocol, more state qualifiers, etc.....but I think it's a little over-the-top to suggest that our tournament series is subpar.