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Is Indiana's wrestling talent decreasing?

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On 9/16/2019 at 2:11 PM, Galagore said:

So you'd say your semi-state is as competitive as it's ever been? Regional?

Yes it is. Would have been tougher is cernus and the other Culver boy would have stuck around. 

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53 minutes ago, Cosgrove said:

Yes it is. Would have been tougher is cernus and the other Culver boy would have stuck around. 

I guess that is where we differ in our assessment of "tough." When I think of tough, I think of tough to get out of. The best guys are always fantastic, just to varying degrees year in and year out. However, actually qualifying from regional to semi-state i.e. winning in the first round doesn't seem like as tall an order as it used to be. Maybe it's just a "glory days" type of thing.

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And even more broadly, when we attend random invitational x during the year, there are far more teams with less than a full line up. And there are far more of the spots being filled by guys who are just learning the sport. Again, maybe it's just our area, but overall wrestling quality does not seem what it used to be.

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Human Nature is to always say things were harder yrs ago and not just in wrestling but all aspects of life.....the truth is the kids nowadays wrestle a lot more across the country in bigger tournaments and Duals from a very young age. So IMO I think the sport of wrestling with talent coming out of Indiana will be just fine 

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Yes, the talent coming out is great. But the kids just wrestling in high school...what about those kids? Or is that not even an issue since they don’t continue after high school? We spend a lot of time focusing on the lifers, but they’re not the ones who will ensure the sport endures for decades to come. 

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16 hours ago, Galagore said:

Yes, the talent coming out is great. But the kids just wrestling in high school...what about those kids? Or is that not even an issue since they don’t continue after high school? We spend a lot of time focusing on the lifers, but they’re not the ones who will ensure the sport endures for decades to come. 

I think that you are talking about depth of talent, more or less. I think I get what your talking about. It just comes down to the softening of our society in general. Back in your day, if you committed to be a part of a team or do something... your parents made you do it, and follow through with your commitment. Also... there was a lot less for kids to do back then. It seems now we as parents (yes... myself included) are allowing kids to do what they want. Back when... football had two a days. You had no choice. You went to practice! That doesn't exist anymore.  

Seems that more and more parents are giving kids a choice on rather or not to put in the work to excel at stuff like sports. Guess what??? If you give most kids a choice on rather or not to go to a tough practice, the majority will say... “naw”. The kids that are excelling are the kids that either (A) don’t want to miss a workout to play video games... or (B) parents do not allow them to skip workouts.

With all of that said... I think that you have been referring to the gap between the haves and the have nots. Where as a typical (non year round) varsity kid is not that “tough”. It is just a sign of the times my friend. Society is changing. 

With all of that said, I don’t think that the talent level is decreasing..... yet. Youth football numbers are currently taking a plunge. Our youth numbers seem to be remaining strong. Who knows???.... wrestling may be the next football. If that does happen, that’s when we will see the decrease in talent. 

Edited by Mattyb

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4 hours ago, Mattyb said:

With all of that said... I think that you have been referring to the gap between the haves and the have nots. Where as a typical (non year round) varsity kid is not that “tough”. It is just a sign of the times my friend. Society is changing. 

With all of that said, I don’t think that the talent level is decreasing..... yet. Youth football numbers are currently taking a plunge. Our youth numbers seem to be remaining strong. Who knows???.... wrestling may be the next football. If that does happen, that’s when we will see the decrease in talent. 

There are way more non-year rounders than there are that wrestle year round. In order for the sport to thrive those that do not wrestle year round need to be there. If not we will become like gymnastics with about 20 teams.

Today kids are almost being forced to be one sport athletes. They have to choose whether to be average at multiple sports or good at one. Guys like Mason Parris are an anomaly. Only two of our state champions this year were multi-sport kids(Keys and Fowler) this past year and by my rough calculation only four runner-ups played another sport(Fielden, Willhelm, Aiken, and Cartwright). 

Our top end talent is as good as it has ever been. Our next tier guys who are 3-5th placers are likely better than they have been in the past, however past that I think our talent levels are down in terms of quantity more than anything.

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I think this will be the case for the foreseeable future.  This isn’t a knock on the bigger guys, but I don’t think a wrestler in the lighter weights can be very competitive on the state level without a lot of year-round offseason training.  I think the size of the weight class differences in the heavier weights allow a phenomenal athlete to be competitive without as much skill level.  When I graduated (late 90’s) if you wrestled in season for 4 years and cut a decent amount of weight you could be competitive in the lighter weights.  However, Year round kids are so highly skilled that the size/strength difference isn’t enough in the lighter weights for upperclassmen to overwhelm their younger competitors.

If you look at the post about “top 3 at each weight” we all pretty much know how the state tournament is going to shake out (just need to know who’s at what weight).  This is a testament to the year round kids.  So yes, at the top end I think the talent is better than ever (there will be some years with exceptions).  Kids/teams/regions without the resources/clinicians/money are going to struggle to make it past semi state.  Many of the top teams have 2nd and 3rd JV teams that are better than probably half the teams in the state. 

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Just in case my next statement on takes a turn toward C-town, I am going to post it in a new thread...that way I cannot be accused of hi-jacking.

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54 minutes ago, JoeCoffey said:

I think this will be the case for the foreseeable future.  This isn’t a knock on the bigger guys, but I don’t think a wrestler in the lighter weights can be very competitive on the state level without a lot of year-round offseason training.  I think the size of the weight class differences in the heavier weights allow a phenomenal athlete to be competitive without as much skill level. 

Just a correction, it takes a different skill set to be good at the bigger weights than it does smaller weights.

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Because you make more money in the big 3 sports

Odell Beckham Jr, Mike trout, and James Hardin makes way more than Zain, Kyle, and David Taylor time 50

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On 9/13/2019 at 10:20 AM, PMFAN said:

A person I know, who wrestled a few years ago, loves to say that the wrestling talent is decreasing year after year. Do you agree? Just for fun, I thought I would put up the 2016 state champs vs the 2019 state champs in a duel meet to see who would win.

2016 State Champs vs 2019 State Champs

106: Asa Gracia vs Brennen Cernus

113: Colton Cummings vs Jacob Moran 

120: Drew Hildebrandt vs Brayden Littell 

 126: Brock Hudkins vs Jesse Mendez  

132: Chad Red vs Asa Garcia 

138: Brayton Lee vs Cayden Rooks 

145: Joe Lee vs Mathew Lee  

152: Trent Pruitt vs Elliott Rodgers  

160: Jacob Covaciu vs Jordan Slivka   

170: Drew Hughes vs Nick South    

182: Blake Rypel vs Carson Brewer  

195: Jake Kleimola vs Silas Allred     

220: Mason Parris vs Arthur Fowler  

285: Shawn Streck vs Dorian Keys   

This definitely does not tell if there is less talent but I think it is just fun to see who would win. IMO I had 2016 state champs winning by a lot!  44-6 to be exact

Edit: I realized after someone told me that I was being biased because I was comparing the kid's entire high school career instead of that individual year so my score got a little closer. 25-17 before Parris and Streck both get a fall so 37-17.

106: cernus dec

113: Cummings dec

120: littell dec

126: Mendez Maj

132: red dec

138: lee tech

145: joe lee fall

152: Pruitt dec

160: covaciu dec

170: Hughes fall 

182: Rypel tech

195: kleimola dec

220: Parris fall

285: streck fall 

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15 hours ago, Indianawrestler145 said:

106: cernus dec

113: Cummings dec

120: littell dec

126: Mendez Maj

132: red dec

138: lee tech

145: joe lee fall

152: Pruitt dec

160: covaciu dec

170: Hughes fall 

182: Rypel tech

195: kleimola dec

220: Parris fall

285: streck fall 

I'll take Allred and brewer Moran to add into the 2018 champs

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18 hours ago, Indianawrestler145 said:

106: cernus dec

113: Cummings dec

120: littell dec

126: Mendez Maj

132: red dec

138: lee tech

145: joe lee fall

152: Pruitt dec

160: covaciu dec

170: Hughes fall 

182: Rypel tech

195: kleimola dec

220: Parris fall

285: streck fall 

Rypel is not teching Brewer. He only won State I think 4-2 as a senior. 

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4 minutes ago, Indianawrestler145 said:

Rypel pinned tonte in the state finals. It wasn’t 4-2

That was his junior year at 195 against a sophomore Tonte. His senior year he decisioned Cam Jones. Tonte barely hit national rankings and Jones didn’t. Rypel is not teching a top 15 nationally ranked Brewer. 

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On 9/28/2019 at 3:13 PM, Thor said:

That was his junior year at 195 against a sophomore Tonte. His senior year he decisioned Cam Jones. Tonte barely hit national rankings and Jones didn’t. Rypel is not teching a top 15 nationally ranked Brewer. 

In his last two years in high school, Carson only gave up offensive points to one person here in Indiana. That was the in that pretty rough match Friday night his junior season (it was bad). With that said, he’s pretty tough to score on. He wrestled very conservatively this year at state. Just wanted the title. But... I personally think Rypel was ranked number one in the nation for a reason and has to be favored.
 

Just honored to have my son be mentioned in this conversation after he has moved on. He’s really doing well at Ohio. Coaches have expressed that they really like him and he’s doing better then they even thought he would. Him Slivka and Mosconni all should be wrestling at the Michigan State open the first week of November. Saw all of them last week and they are all doing great! 
 

Bottom line.. our studs are moving on to D1 and doing great. It would be cool if Slivka and Mosconni would clean their room tho! 

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I honestly believe what might appear as weaker depth below the top level guys is actually misleading.

I think what we are seeing is that the top level guys are getting so much better and therefore the gap to the mid-level guys is simply becoming too much to over come. The sheer quantity of quality D1 talent that is now coming out of Indiana supports this theory.

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5 hours ago, SIACfan said:

I honestly believe what might appear as weaker depth below the top level guys is actually misleading.

I think what we are seeing is that the top level guys are getting so much better and therefore the gap to the mid-level guys is simply becoming too much to over come. The sheer quantity of quality D1 talent that is now coming out of Indiana supports this theory.

You make a good point, and I am willing to concede it on grounds of talent. There is still a numbers crisis at many schools, and until that is fixed it’s hard for me to feel good about where we’re going. 

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On 9/16/2019 at 8:05 AM, Mattyb said:

All of these kids are great. I do know this. Been keeping my eye on our grads from last year that are going D1 (been getting updates from people in the rooms). 4 at IU and 2 at Ohio U. Proud to say they are all making it through the grind and by all accounts adjusting well. We got Littell coming to Ohio next year. I’m guessing others may end up there or at IU. Most of this years champs wrestled on teams together since early in elementary school. Looks like they are sticking together in college. Pretty cool stuff. Most of if not all of this years graduated champs are redshirting. Look for them to wrestle unattached at opens this year. They all should be at the Michigan State Open the first week of November. Mosconni and Washington should be there too. 

My point is that we have a bunch of D1 talent coming out of Indiana. Not seeing fall off. With that said.. 2016 was a REALLY tough group. Don’t know if any class would beat them. 

Have 2 at Purdue as well (Pokorney and Lohrey). 

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9 hours ago, wchew20 said:

Have 2 at Purdue as well (Pokorney and Lohrey). 

We actually have more than that going D1. I was referring to the 6 champs from this year that have moved on and are going D1. Since this tread is about this years state champs.

With that said... look forward to watching dem studs too. 

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18 hours ago, Galagore said:

You make a good point, and I am willing to concede it on grounds of talent. There is still a numbers crisis at many schools, and until that is fixed it’s hard for me to feel good about where we’re going. 

Haven't forfeits always been a part of wrestling? I have no clue on the overall trend or anything like that, but it doesn't seem to me that it is horrendously worse now than it was when I wrestled, or when I began coaching.  All of this stuff ebbs and flows too.  This will be my 11th year as a head coach, and I can say that in the last decade alone I have seen teams that had literally 3 wrestlers on the team at one point, go on to be at team state, and win regionals.  I have also seen it go the other way, teams with a lot of kids go down to a few.  

I think A LOT of it is about the "culture" of the sport at the school.  For whatever reason it seems like some schools have it, others don't.  Again this can change with a class, or with various coaches...

I also don't see this as an issue that is small school vs big school.  I spent my first 9 years at a small school, and we very rarely forfeited, not that it never happened, but it seemed easier to get a kid to try it out, or come out to fill a spot.  I now coach at a much larger school, and had two forfeits all year.  I've found communication to be much more difficult at a larger school, and I am in the building. I imagine that getting things "going" is much more difficult no matter  the school if your not in the building.  

With this being said once a team culture is established with-in a program it is something that can last for a long period of time.  It is just difficult to get going.  I would also say in my opinion getting the culture right is just as important to a program as having a coach who knows all of the moves in the world.

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19 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

Haven't forfeits always been a part of wrestling? I have no clue on the overall trend or anything like that, but it doesn't seem to me that it is horrendously worse now than it was when I wrestled, or when I began coaching.  All of this stuff ebbs and flows too.  This will be my 11th year as a head coach, and I can say that in the last decade alone I have seen teams that had literally 3 wrestlers on the team at one point, go on to be at team state, and win regionals.  I have also seen it go the other way, teams with a lot of kids go down to a few.  

I think A LOT of it is about the "culture" of the sport at the school.  For whatever reason it seems like some schools have it, others don't.  Again this can change with a class, or with various coaches...

I also don't see this as an issue that is small school vs big school.  I spent my first 9 years at a small school, and we very rarely forfeited, not that it never happened, but it seemed easier to get a kid to try it out, or come out to fill a spot.  I now coach at a much larger school, and had two forfeits all year.  I've found communication to be much more difficult at a larger school, and I am in the building. I imagine that getting things "going" is much more difficult no matter  the school if your not in the building.  

With this being said once a team culture is established with-in a program it is something that can last for a long period of time.  It is just difficult to get going.  I would also say in my opinion getting the culture right is just as important to a program as having a coach who knows all of the moves in the world.

Forfeits have grown considerably since 2009

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Knl68lI1LvTmzACIn5kK3Uq3KCHTLEATGFHE_TdciEU/edit?usp=sharing

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52 minutes ago, ENoblewrestling said:

Haven't forfeits always been a part of wrestling? I have no clue on the overall trend or anything like that, but it doesn't seem to me that it is horrendously worse now than it was when I wrestled, or when I began coaching.  All of this stuff ebbs and flows too.  This will be my 11th year as a head coach, and I can say that in the last decade alone I have seen teams that had literally 3 wrestlers on the team at one point, go on to be at team state, and win regionals.  I have also seen it go the other way, teams with a lot of kids go down to a few.  

I think A LOT of it is about the "culture" of the sport at the school.  For whatever reason it seems like some schools have it, others don't.  Again this can change with a class, or with various coaches...

I also don't see this as an issue that is small school vs big school.  I spent my first 9 years at a small school, and we very rarely forfeited, not that it never happened, but it seemed easier to get a kid to try it out, or come out to fill a spot.  I now coach at a much larger school, and had two forfeits all year.  I've found communication to be much more difficult at a larger school, and I am in the building. I imagine that getting things "going" is much more difficult no matter  the school if your not in the building.  

With this being said once a team culture is established with-in a program it is something that can last for a long period of time.  It is just difficult to get going.  I would also say in my opinion getting the culture right is just as important to a program as having a coach who knows all of the moves in the world.

If my post somehow implied that it was geared toward small schools, it was a mistake. I have seen schools of many sizes who are fielding small teams. We had five guys on the team last year, and I was stunned at how often we would show up to meets and not be the smallest team there...at least not the smallest by a lot.

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