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People also need to remember that schools are removing tournaments with five duals from their schedules to come to this event. If we only guarantee them two duals, I think that is a negative and could seriously affect who accepts their invite and who declines. 

 

If anything-we should be creative and find a way to get a fourth dual for the last place teams, because to be honest, the 11th place team wrestling the 12th place team will be the most competitive and worthwhile dual they wrestle all day. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, decbell1 said:

People also need to remember that schools are removing tournaments with five duals from their schedules to come to this event. If we only guarantee them two duals, I think that is a negative and could seriously affect who accepts their invite and who declines. 

 

If anything-we should be creative and find a way to get a fourth dual for the last place teams, because to be honest, the 11th place team wrestling the 12th place team will be the most competitive and worthwhile dual they wrestle all day. 

Just win and it isn’t an issue.

As a parent I would be all for my kid getting less matches during the season to ensure a crack at the big dogs. 

If coaches want to get quanity over quality for their team then they should  not come anyway. 

Edited by Mattyb

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9 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Just win and it isn’t an issue.

As a parent I would be all for my kid getting less matching during the season to ensure a crack at the big dogs. 

If coaches want to get quanity over quality for their team then they should  not come anyway. 

Great attitude...our state series should be single elimination also, just win or don't waste my time with the losers.

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1 hour ago, decbell1 said:

People also need to remember that schools are removing tournaments with five duals from their schedules to come to this event. If we only guarantee them two duals, I think that is a negative and could seriously affect who accepts their invite and who declines. 

 

If anything-we should be creative and find a way to get a fourth dual for the last place teams, because to be honest, the 11th place team wrestling the 12th place team will be the most competitive and worthwhile dual they wrestle all day. 

Can you point me to the thread that talks about which teams declined an invitation? Nothing against Northridge but teams like Merrilville, FW Carrol, C. Grove, Chesterton, Crown Point could have made for some better matchups. 

Same with Oak Hill and Culver in 2A.

 

Not complaining just curious. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Great attitude...our state series should be single elimination also, just win or don't waste my time with the losers.

Apples to oranges.

Also just my opinion. If my kids team lost the first two, I personally would not care if we wrestled a third (if that was the rules).

Nobody knows the lack of wrestle backs more than me! But it’s the way it is. No sour grapes. 

Edited by Mattyb

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2 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Apples to oranges. 

Nope, we should only care about the champions. Let's have team state be single elimination, you lose, go home you can't run with the big dawgs. We could make it a 4 round day instead of 6 with single elimination.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Nope, we should only care about the champions. Let's have team state be single elimination, you lose, go home you can't run with the big dawgs. We could make it a 4 round day instead of 6 with single elimination.

 

Now that would be dumb! Lol

Again just brain storming and sharing my opinion.  

And... each team would get at least double elemination. Not one and done. Again, apples to oranges. 

Edited by Mattyb

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6 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Nope, we should only care about the champions. Let's have team state be single elimination, you lose, go home you can't run with the big dawgs. We could make it a 4 round day instead of 6 with single elimination.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Apples to oranges. 

 

16 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Great attitude...our state series should be single elimination also, just win or don't waste my time with the losers.

 

26 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Just win and it isn’t an issue.

As a parent I would be all for my kid getting less matching during the season to ensure a crack at the big dogs. 

If coaches want to get quanity over quality for their team then they should  not come anyway. 

Crap ...... and it Begins ! 

Woooo.... Bang ! Bang ! Bang! 

Pistol Pete 

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34 minutes ago, Mattyb said:

Just win and it isn’t an issue.

As a parent I would be all for my kid getting less matches during the season to ensure a crack at the big dogs. 

If coaches want to get quanity over quality for their team then they should  not come anyway. 

Quantity might not matter for Avon at 3A, but it sure makes a heckuva difference in 1A and 2A. Even though these are the best of the small schools, there are still many wrestlers there that would benefit from more matches, rather than quality. 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Thor said:

Quantity might not matter for Avon at 3A, but it sure makes a heckuva difference in 1A and 2A. Even though these are the best of the small schools, there are still many wrestlers there that would benefit from more matches, rather than quality. 

So I guess the question is this... As a parent, would you lose sleep if the team got double dipped by two better teams and you didn’t get a third match? 

No matter what class “my” team is in. I would not care if that was the guidelines. For example, if Avon lost to Penn and Cathedral this past weekend, I would have no issue if the team had to go home.  Just an honor to be there and get a crack at the best. Again, just my opinion. And a solution to shorten the day by a couple hours. 

Btw...I also suggested to keep it the same and add 6 mats. Any feed back on that one?  

Would love to hear from the fine folks that pretty much run every state tourney in Indiana. I know that they didn’t get back to the ISWA offices until well after midnight. Probably to bed at 2am or so. Btw... these same people were in Franklin running kiddie state at 7 am. 

Edited by Mattyb

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Posted (edited)

Btw... if we could get 6 more mats down. We can get all teams four duals and get out over 2 hours earlier. Win win win for all. The only downfall is that it will cost more for the mats and refs. But maybe more parents will come if they wrestle 4 times and shorten the day. 

Edited by Mattyb

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mattyb said:

So I guess the question is this... As a parent, would you lose sleep if the team got double dipped by two better teams and you didn’t get a third match? 

No matter what class “my” team is in. I would not care if that was the guidelines. For example, if Avon lost to Penn and Cathedral this past weekend, I would have no issue if the team had to go home.  Just an honor to be there and get a crack at the best. Again, just my opinion. And a solution to shorten th day by a couple hours. 

Btw...I also suggested to keep it the same and add 6 mats. Any feed back on that one? 

Most parents would be disappointed, and I totally agree with DecBell on this one.  It would discourage teams to just participate in Team State if they only have a 2 match guarantee.  I think it discourages teams currently from getting a 3 match guarantee. 

  Its comes off as arrogant and elitist to only have the top teams advance, because everybody knows the top teams who will likely win  because  wrestling is pretty damn predictable ,  especially when you have Maligned applying his logarithims to it.  And its going to be the same blue blood teams who get all the coverage anyway.    So the Brownsburgs, Avons, Cathedrals, WCs, EMDs and PMs  get their press and coverage and limelight, and they dont want those other teams, that are not as well known,  taking a little bit of the attention and lime light.   KIeep in minds,  theres different expectations out their for every team in the state.

News for you MattyB,  there's  a bigger wrestling world out there.   There's programs due to the socio- economic status,  will not ever be a tier 1 team.   But these programs have goals that are different than Avon's and Brownsbug's.   These programs love taking their long shot at the big teams,  but they know the odds are stacked against them.     But they also know that,  maybe placing top 8 or top 10 or even winning a match at team state would be big deal.  Maybe they cant beat a top 5 team,  but they have a legit shot against a top 20 team.   And when you funnel down the bracket,  the matches at the top get competitive, the 7th and 8th place match is also just as competitive and 11th and 12th place could be a dynamite dual as DecBell mentioned.     It comes down to expectations,   it would be a big downer for Avon to wrestle in the 11th place match if that happened.   But, for a team that gets that rare shot to qualify for state,  they want to enjoy that moment as much as they can and prove that they can wrestle.   Besides,  if it was any other weekend,  having two top 20 wrestle would be a big thing.

Last year, my sons former high school team  made it to team state.  They normally don't go and they new they had a 0% chance of winning it as they were unseeded.  But they got there and enjoyed the 3 matches and actually won one,  and were really disappointed they didn't get their 4th match.  They brought a big crowd and got hotel rooms in FW and were into it.  And most of  all, they were  extremely disappointed at not getting a  shot  at wrestling a team in their bracket  affiliated with an administrator on Indianamat that had made some  funny and extremely colorful posts about them on Indianamat.    They could  of had  a shot if they would wrestled the 11th or 9th  place match,  and it would of been a great matchup and very good dual (IMO).

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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3 hours ago, navy80 said:

Can you point me to the thread that talks about which teams declined an invitation? Nothing against Northridge but teams like Merrilville, FW Carrol, C. Grove, Chesterton, Crown Point could have made for some better matchups. 

Same with Oak Hill and Culver in 2A.

 

Not complaining just curious. 

There's an automatic bid from each semi-state for each class. The competition for the 3A spot from Fort Wayne is quite thin. Carroll lost some starters and had a low qualifying score by their past standards, and Northridge edged them out for that automatic bid. No declined bids had any impact on them being invited.

Oak Hill was in the voting for the 2 non-automatic spots but weren't selected. On paper, the two teams chosen instead of them, Southridge and Rochester, were bringing back their whole teams plus strong freshmen reinforcements. Sadly, Rochester has 5 of its top 6 guys out. I'm not sure what Southridge's story was, but they're not as good as last year despite bringing back so much. They must have had some attrition as well.

Culver Academies didn't reach the voting. All of their studs are freshmen or move-ins that didn't contribute to their qualifying score at all. Because of tight scheduling parameters (no weigh-in exemption granted by IHSAA, so invitations have to be given a year in advance for scheduling purposes), it's one of the many sad limitations of our current system that there's no way to include 8th grade or move-in talent if you can't at least reach the voting to have it considered in your profile.

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5 hours ago, Mattyb said:

So I guess the question is this... As a parent, would you lose sleep if the team got double dipped by two better teams and you didn’t get a third match? 

No matter what class “my” team is in. I would not care if that was the guidelines. For example, if Avon lost to Penn and Cathedral this past weekend, I would have no issue if the team had to go home.  Just an honor to be there and get a crack at the best. Again, just my opinion. And a solution to shorten the day by a couple hours. 

Btw...I also suggested to keep it the same and add 6 mats. Any feed back on that one?  

Would love to hear from the fine folks that pretty much run every state tourney in Indiana. I know that they didn’t get back to the ISWA offices until well after midnight. Probably to bed at 2am or so. Btw... these same people were in Franklin running kiddie state at 7 am. 

Thankfully the IHSAA and most coaches around the state don’t give two cents about whether you sleep at night. 

 

High school athletics aren’t for you enjoyment. They’re for the student athlete

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1 hour ago, lewdwar said:

I say we add wild cards. Pick up a couple super studs and tell the kids that  has been wrestling all year sorry you’re just not good enough we found someone to take your spot. 

You obviously aren’t understanding the discussion here or the parameters in place 

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16 hours ago, lewdwar said:

I say we add wild cards. Pick up a couple super studs and tell the kids that  has been wrestling all year sorry you’re just not good enough we found someone to take your spot. 

and there it is....... nice work @lewdwar.... way to not disapoint @Mattyb 

 

@decbell1 he is not serious he is addressing his long standing issues with elementary team state and the teams trying to fill open spots by using wildcards (some in the past have used wildcards in place of their own club kids and he takes issue with that).

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22 hours ago, Mattyb said:

Nobody knows the lack of wrestle backs more than me! But it’s the way it is. No sour grapes

State should have wrestle backs! The upsets and high drama are a lot of fun, but crazy how hard it is to reach our State finals and not have double elimination...

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21 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Most parents would be disappointed, and I totally agree with DecBell on this one.  It would discourage teams to just participate in Team State if they only have a 2 match guarantee.  I think it discourages teams currently from getting a 3 match guarantee. 

  Its comes off as arrogant and elitist to only have the top teams advance, because everybody knows the top teams who will likely win  because  wrestling is pretty damn predictable ,  especially when you have Maligned applying his logarithims to it.  And its going to be the same blue blood teams who get all the coverage anyway.    So the Brownsburgs, Avons, Cathedrals, WCs, EMDs and PMs  get their press and coverage and limelight, and they dont want those other teams, that are not as well known,  taking a little bit of the attention and lime light.   KIeep in minds,  theres different expectations out their for every team in the state.

News for you MattyB,  there's  a bigger wrestling world out there.   There's programs due to the socio- economic status,  will not ever be a tier 1 team.   But these programs have goals that are different than Avon's and Brownsbug's.   These programs love taking their long shot at the big teams,  but they know the odds are stacked against them.     But they also know that,  maybe placing top 8 or top 10 or even winning a match at team state would be big deal.  Maybe they cant beat a top 5 team,  but they have a legit shot against a top 20 team.   And when you funnel down the bracket,  the matches at the top get competitive, the 7th and 8th place match is also just as competitive and 11th and 12th place could be a dynamite dual as DecBell mentioned.     It comes down to expectations,   it would be a big downer for Avon to wrestle in the 11th place match if that happened.   But, for a team that gets that rare shot to qualify for state,  they want to enjoy that moment as much as they can and prove that they can wrestle.   Besides,  if it was any other weekend,  having two top 20 wrestle would be a big thing.

Last year, my sons former high school team  made it to team state.  They normally don't go and they new they had a 0% chance of winning it as they were unseeded.  But they got there and enjoyed the 3 matches and actually won one,  and were really disappointed they didn't get their 4th match.  They brought a big crowd and got hotel rooms in FW and were into it.  And most of  all, they were  extremely disappointed at not getting a  shot  at wrestling a team in their bracket  affiliated with an administrator on Indianamat that had made some  funny and extremely colorful posts about them on Indianamat.    They could  of had  a shot if they would wrestled the 11th or 9th  place match,  and it would of been a great matchup and very good dual (IMO).

 

 

 

 

Why are we lumping Avon in with schools that have actually won state championships?:ph34r:

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16 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I was just trying to build some confidence and not  bruise egos.

I will take the shots from Emd guys and Perry guys(they earned it)... But shots from a Harrison guy! New low for me. Dang that’s bad. Feelings are hurt now. 

Seriously.... I really didn’t think that not giving a match to teams which went 0-2 in the pool was a big deal (regardless of where I’m from). But... I guess it is for many. Super sorry that I didn’t see that as big as a deal as it clearly is to most. Just wanted to clear that up. Wasn’t trying to come across as a jerk. That’s not me. I really want what’s best for the kids. 

I guess the only choices we have to keep state a very long day or add six more mats and get everyone 4 duals. 

With that said, the old format was lose one loss and done right? How did those weigh-ins work back then? 

With all of that said, I really enjoyed being at state the last few years and plan on attending many more. Great show by the kids, coaches, and especially the people that run it. 

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By old format do you mean having an 8 team bracket? Everyone got 3 matches. Winners in the 1st round were guaranteed top 4 placement. Losers wrestled each other to determine who wrestled for 5th. Losers of that match wrestled for 7tn.

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Pretty sure the old teams state was one and done if you lost.

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How about breaking it into two tournaments. One in the North and the other one in the South. Invite the same number of teams to the two tournaments. Then the top six (or eight) in each North and South tournament qualifies for the State tournament. All teams would wrestle through placement.

This allows more teams to qualify for the North and South tournaments, but the better quality teams to advance to the State tournament.

Thoughts?

After thought..... Plus it would really suck traveling 4+ hours and only wrestling 2 matches. 

Edited by us3dogs

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11 minutes ago, us3dogs said:

How about breaking it into two tournaments. One in the North and the other one in the South. Invite the same number of teams to the two tournaments. Then the top six (or eight) in each North and South tournament qualifies for the State tournament. All teams would wrestle through placement.

This allows more teams to qualify for the North and South tournaments, but the better quality teams to advance to the State tournament.

Thoughts?

After thought..... Plus it would really suck traveling 4+ hours and only wrestling 2 matches. 

That would take four event points to pull off and many team's schedules are already to the max with conference and sectional opponents. Then on top of that the teams that don't qualify for the "finals" would be without two points late in the season.

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