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Ed Pendoski

An Idea to Think About.

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Posted (edited)

To add a little light on the situation as it pertains to the inner- city programs, particular in IPS. This past year the school board decided to close four IPS schools: Arlington, Broad Ripple, Northwest, and John Marshall. All of the above mentioned schools for the past ten NEVER filled an entire team,  at best they maybe had a total of 30 participants. The remaining teams: Tech, Washington, Attucks and Shortridge are the only IPS teams that may offer wrestling for the students that are enrolled in the district. The latter two teams aren't sure if they are going to have the interest to field at program at all. I have coached in this district for over 16 years and the participation has declined every year for various reasons. Ultimately, I chose to somewhat "retire" from coaching in IPS and concentrate on my sons that wrestle club at Beech Grove. The transfer rule is a very touchy subject, you can look at the top tier teams in the state and some of them have benefited from state placers from other schools and they have won team state titles from a smaller school transfer. As far as the City is concerned namely, the Indianapolis City Wrestling Championships there will be a total of about 9 or so with maybe 3 teams with at full lineup. So, do we penalize the kid for wanting to transfer? 

Edited by Coach Brown

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I’m going to give my take coming from a  small school, being a coach and a father. When I made my decision to stay in a school that was small, academically fantastic and no wrestling program. I knew that the reason I was there and move my kids to Indiana from Chicago was for the academic and the environment. It wasn’t always easy. Sometimes I had my doubts. But I always felt that wrestling was a tool to use for my kids to get a better education. And I believe I made the right choice. Having my oldest be able to attend a very prestigious college and wrestle d1. My second going on same path. And having 7 years of wrestling program existence we produced three college wrestlers, the fourth one did not want to wrestle in college. I am going to tell you that going to a big school or a top program is not always best. If your eyes are set on what they do in wrestling only, well in my opinion that is what hurts the sport. There’s a lot more than wrestling, like academics, growing up with your classmates, that bond and memories that can’t be build by just a wrestler. This are the things that make men that make a difference in life. Not always about winning. Unfortunately a lot of parents are so focus on winning that some of this kids don’t wrestle in high school bc they are burn out. And so some high school wrestlers that were considered “studs” “hammers” did not achieve what was “ what they were supposed to” don’t end up wrestling in college!!! I have seen it over and over. And I also seen wrestlers that were not state champions do well in college and sometimes even get better scholarships than some state champions. (Academics) you can be great anywhere you go, that honestly on the individual and what they are willing to sacrifice for their goal. There is something special about knowing your wrestlers for 12 years and seeing them still love the sport and become productive men in society. 

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15 minutes ago, Coach Brown said:

To add a little light on the situation as it pertains to the inner- city programs, particular in IPS. This past year the school board decided to close four IPS schools: Arlington, Broad Ripple, Northwest, and John Marshall. All of the above mentioned schools for the past ten NEVER filled an entire team,  at best they maybe had a total of 30 participants. The remaining teams: Tech, Washington, Attucks and Shortridge are the only IPS teams that may offer wrestling for the students that are enrolled in the district. The latter two teams aren't sure if they are going to have the interest to field at program at all. I have coached in this district for over 16 years and the participation has declined every year for various reasons. Utimently, I chose to somewhat "retire" from coaching in IPS and concentrate on my sons that wrestle club at Beech Grove. The transfer rule is a very touchy subject, you can look at the top tier teams in the state and some of them have benefited from state placers from other schools and they have won team state titles from a smaller school transfer. As far as the City is concerned namely, the Indianapolis City Wrestling Championships there will be a total of about 9 or so with maybe 3 teams with at full lineup. So, do we penalize the kid for wanting to transfer? 

Where is Jay Manson when you need him? He would be a logical transfer to the Irish this season. Even with Arlington’s rich history, he was one of the most talented ever. These are the instances the IHSAA can’t set rules and regulations for in the transfer game: consolidations and closings. 

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4 minutes ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy said:

Where is Jay Manson when you need him? He would be a logical transfer to the Irish this season. Even with Arlington’s rich history, he was one of the most talented ever. These are the instances the IHSAA can’t set rules and regulations for in the transfer game: consolidations and closings. 

I agree, Jay was a beast!!!

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8 hours ago, IndianaWrestlingGuy said:

CoachP - Transfers won’t kill the sport, but all the media circus around contact sports and the concussion nonsense just might. There is a major correlation between football and wrestling. USA Football numbers are down nationally by hundreds of thousands in the last 5 years. Parents are just getting more butt hurt about Little Johnny’s mental health. For a sport like wrestling that pushes kids harder than any other, 100% parental buy-in (especially from the mother) is paramount to a long lasting scholastic career in wrestling. The problem doesn’t lie in transfers, it lies in the number of kids that are embracing the sport. If the number of teams and most importantly, the health of wrestling programs stays static, transfers would be significant to a program’s success or demise. 

But, winning programs/great academic institutions will always attract parents searching for the best for their kid. Further, kids expelled for grades or conduct also predicate moves. So, transfers will always happen whether it is good for the kid or not. 

Be careful to not assume all transfers happen with wrestlers chasing bigtime programs. More times than not, the transfer is leaving a good program due to grades, conduct, or, in some cases, tuition. ;)

 

You've got some points, but I have a very hard time believing "More times than not, the transfer is leaving a good program due to grades, conduct, or, in some cases, tuition."  Those cases do happen, but many of the names we see moving in Indiana are moving because they're being recruited, or because the school next door has a more established program.

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Posted (edited)

There are a lot of great points on here, but the one thing wrestling still has going for it is that kids do value a high school state championship and your best kids in the state are participating in the high school programs.  Maybe soccer is a better comparison than gymnastics and what you should fear.  From what I hear and see, HS soccer kids value and believe their club teams are much more important than their high school teams and they don't play for their school.  That takes the best kids out of the high school programs and the level of competition at the high school is not close to what they get in the club.  While the best kids in HS wrestling know they will need to compete at a national level for a scholarship opportunity, so far there are not in season opportunities for kids to go wrestle all over the state against better kids during the HS season.  Are some super top level kids skipping their senior year to go the OTC or go their college's RTC, yeah.  So far it is a very small number which is a good thing.

I think what would make me even sadder about schools dropping teams would be the loss of a chance to help kids.  The older I get, I worry much less about winning a team state and much more about just getting participation up so you can get more kids involved and give them good role models, reasons to study, reasons to want to go to college, experiences with their teammates they won't get in other sports, camps, etc.  Basically life lessons and a chance to help them.  A small kid just is not going to get that in football at a lot of schools for example.  Every other sport has become so political,  where I live at least, that it seems that wrestling offers these kids a chance to earn a spot and participate where they can't fit in otherwise.  I hope that other coaches would stick with smaller programs for this reason even though it is discouraging to lose good kids to other programs sometimes.

While it is very difficult to find a D1 starter to come back and coach your local HS, I am encouraged by the young D3 and D2 coaches that seem to be much more available than they were 30 years ago.  Manchester has turned out a lot of good coaches for example.  Wabash has turned into a power house.  While these guys may not have placed at the US Open, they are more than capable to coach a kid to a HS state championship and ( while young anyway ) offer some great partners for your kids.  I don't even dream of finding a D1 coach in a rural area but there are D3 guys out there if you are lucky enough to get one.

Edited by doctorWrestling
correction

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14 hours ago, Mattyb said:

Again... with alll of this said... are you to suggest that the parents just stick with the course that they were on???? I say no way!!! No way this family sacrifices opportunity for their child to get better coaching, partners, and education just because some other people think that a handful of kids moving is going to “kill” high school wrestling. 

A phrase I say to our team often is "just because someone says something adamantly, doesn't make their opinion more correct".  I could see why people have this opinion too. Cody Phillips, Michael Duckworth, and Mitch Sliga are guys that are examples of wrestlers that stayed in the district of their local feeder system.  They stayed in their dirstrict, used the tools that they had available, and had pretty successful careers in high school. One opinion on this would be if you don't take the easier path (transfer to a district with the 'perfect partners/coaches' then they would be more prepared for difficult situations in matches/life...but that is a different conversation that I hope doesn't take over this thread.

 

In my conversations with other coaches is usually about what happens to the state as a whole if a portion of transfers to the a power team continues?

I can see the discrepancies of my gymnastics analogy.  Gymnastics has many hurdles in front of them.  It is a very expensive sport and takes up a large chunk of space in a school building, and it is very hard to find a coach....but I do feel like wrestling has it's own hurdles in front of them.  

 

 

I'm pretty sure that no one knows what will happen to the smaller/weaker programs if quality guys continue to transfer to the 'power programs'.  My hope of this discussion is that are we really looking at the future of our sport at the high school level?  Should we pay attention to possible long term ramifications? I'm the Lorax.  I speak for the trees!

 

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Wrestling is seeing quite a bit of the elite guys skipping a season or two of high school wrestling in order to train in a better environment. We are slowly creeping towards a similar gymnastics model.

Here in Indiana we saw it with the Lee's, we saw it with Paul Konrath. Nationally, Kyle Snyder skipped his senior year to train at the OTC. Recently two Ohio brothers have announced they are spending a year out there and the path of skipping high school to the OTC is starting to gain steam.

How far will this go? I cannot tell, but it is something to keep your eye on.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

How often did transfers happen in the 70's 80's 90's? Not very often...Now ask yourself the question why didn't it happen often? Do you think it is because kids were built different? Coaches weren't recruiting? Kids believed they could win where they were at? Why is it happening so much now?

In my opinion, it's the effects of technology and economic progress. With the advent of the internet and then social media, ideas/schedules/plans are shared more quickly and easily. And the average American family, with our nation's steady economic progress, has significantly more flexibility in their spending that allows for more camps and travel--and therefore a building of wrestling networks and an exposure to what's out there. Once you've got all the info of what's happening in wrestling, you've built your wrestling community network from a distance, and you've got that slightly more income and awareness of jobs available elsewhere--the leap to a family move is relatively quick and painless compared to 30 or 40 years ago. Then when a couple families do it, it's that much easier for others to follow suit.

We're getting more mobile on every level as a society--not less. It's happening on a national level in terms of populations in cities, for example. People are trickling away from all the big Midwest cities and landing in coastal or warm-weather or tech-oriented cities. I'm not sure what the smart answers are to the issues Coach P. raises. If we as a society are clearly migrating toward what's perceived to be bigger/better/smarter/hipper, it will be tough to slow the trend in high school wrestling. How do you build those arguments to families that "better" can actually mean bettering your community, being loyal, and growing as human beings in accomplishing what others say we can't?

Edited by maligned

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Posted (edited)

You can point the blame at numerous reasons - Title IX, transfers, etc. However, lets take a look at college wrestling pre-Title IX and post-Title IX - the difference in numbers is staggering. 

Quote

"...since 1993, wrestling has been a rapidly growing sport at the high-school level. Data compiled by Gary Abbott, director of special projects at USA Wrestling, indicates that in 2001, there were 244,984 athletes wrestling in high school; only 5,966 got to wrestle in the National Collegiate Athletic Association. Not to put too fine a point on it: there is only one N.C.A.A. spot for every 41 high-school wrestlers. The numbers have been going downhill for a while. In 1982, there were 363 N.C.A.A. wrestling teams with 7,914 wrestlers competing; in 2001, there were only 229 teams with fewer than 6,000 wrestlers. Yet, in that same period, the number of N.C.A.A. institutions has increased from 787 to 1,049. No wonder wrestlers are unhappy" (Irving "Wrestling With Title IX").

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but transferring has little to do with the so-called problem. There is ONE NCAA spot per every FORTY-ONE high-school wrestlers (this article is dated, but numbers have not fluctuated much). The lack of opportunities at the next level is a direct correlation to why kids transfer from "2A to 6A". How does the sport continue to grow at the high-school level, but relatively remain stagnant at the collegiate level? Granted, you do have the 3-5 teams that attempt to house a program in the NAIA or NCAA every now and then, but they do not match the number of schools that have dropped the sport.

 

With that being said, how does a kid become recognizable enough to earn that 1 out of 41 chance to wrestle in college? He goes to where he can improve and get the attention of college coaches. Yes, Eddie, there are the Mitch Sliga's of the world. Let's not forget the room where he was supplementing his training for the other 8 months out of year (Seth Riley happened to attend a good bit as well). However, not every kid's family can afford to pay $200-$300 per month for a private academy. Not every kid has the training partners at their expense. Blame the state for the open enrollment rule - not the kid and his family for utilizing it for his future. I will NEVER fault a family for doing what they think is best for their kid/family. I get it - it sucks as a coach and a teammate to see a good one leave. Been there, experienced that.

 

The blame goes to the next-level, IMO. The lack of opportunity will eventually stunt the sport's growth. Also, look at how many BIG NAME transfers happened in the NCAA this year alone - because they believed that there was a better opportunity for them succeed. Kids, families, etc. that are serious about their sport and future will go to extreme measures to put their children in the best position to be successful. At the end of the day, we are just coaches. We do not know what is best for the kid, even if we think that we do! I am not worried about the sport suffering or losing numbers - or even turning into gymnastics-ish. I am not supporting or bashing the transfer rule, but I will say that it will not ruin the sport at the high-school level -- especially in IN.

 

BTW Ed, I think its worked out well for your coaching staff! An Argyle and a Flash turned Falcons... now Greyhounds - its the circle of life, baby! 

 

I am not saying I am correct, but I am just throwing what I believe out there. 

Edited by Riley McClurg

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, AlaskanMountie said:

Does anyone find it ironic that a coach from a school reprimanded by the IHSAA for recruiting violations is now on this thread supporting unfettered transferring? 

Please show me where I supported unfettered transferring? Simply stated facts. The open enrollment rule was implemented by the State of Indiana. Families do what they think is best for their kids. Not once did I mention the word recruit, but you did. This is simply a conversation about the influx of transfers in our sport. 

However, I do find it humorous that you feel the need to try and start drama when it is just simply a conversation. There always has to be "that guy," though. I appreciate your opinion.

Edited by Riley McClurg

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1 hour ago, Riley McClurg said:

You can point the blame at numerous reasons - Title IX, transfers, etc. However, lets take a look at college wrestling pre-Title IX and post-Title IX - the difference in numbers is staggering. 

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but transferring has little to do with the so-called problem. There is ONE NCAA spot per every FORTY-ONE high-school wrestlers (this article is dated, but numbers have not fluctuated much). The lack of opportunities at the next level is a direct correlation to why kids transfer from "2A to 6A". How does the sport continue to grow at the high-school level, but relatively remain stagnant at the collegiate level? Granted, you do have the 3-5 teams that attempt to house a program in the NAIA or NCAA every now and then, but they do not match the number of schools that have dropped the sport.

 

With that being said, how does a kid become recognizable enough to earn that 1 out of 41 chance to wrestle in college? He goes to where he can improve and get the attention of college coaches. Yes, Eddie, there are the Mitch Sliga's of the world. Let's not forget the room where he was supplementing his training for the other 8 months out of year (Seth Riley happened to attend a good bit as well). However, not every kid's family can afford to pay $200-$300 per month for a private academy. Not every kid has the training partners at their expense. Blame the state for the open enrollment rule - not the kid and his family for utilizing it for his future. I will NEVER fault a family for doing what they think is best for their kid/family. I get it - it sucks as a coach and a teammate to see a good one leave. Been there, experienced that.

 

The blame goes to the next-level, IMO. The lack of opportunity will eventually stunt the sport's growth. Also, look at how many BIG NAME transfers happened in the NCAA this year alone - because they believed that there was a better opportunity for them succeed. Kids, families, etc. that are serious about their sport and future will go to extreme measures to put their children in the best position to be successful. At the end of the day, we are just coaches. We do not know what is best for the kid, even if we think that we do! I am not worried about the sport suffering or losing numbers - or even turning into gymnastics-ish. I am not supporting or bashing the transfer rule, but I will say that it will not ruin the sport at the high-school level -- especially in IN.

 

BTW Ed, I think its worked out well for your coaching staff! An Argyle and a Flash turned Falcons... now Greyhounds - its the circle of life, baby! 

 

I am not saying I am correct, but I am just throwing what I believe out there. 

I hate to burst your bubble, but winning a state title in Indiana does very little to boost your college stock. Placing at the big national events does more for you than anything. Thus transferring so you get into a "high profile" program won't do you any good unless you hit the national scene AND have success. We have had many multiple time state champs that never sniffed national rankings due to not having the national success. 

On top of that if you want to wrestle in college you can, most schools not DI will take walkons and they don't care if you were a state placer or even a lowly semi-state qualifier. I know Indiana Tech has done quite well with some kids that never made it to state. I am sure if you show interest in them Tommy will take you. That goes along with any of the smaller schools in the state. Ask @dstruck how to get a kid that isn't a state qualifier onto a college team. 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Mattyb said:

So what would you suggest these people do? 

I was at a meet last year. The school has had multiple state champs in the past. They now have a new staff. Multiple parents from that school told me about how their kids were not getting what they need to get to the next level (these kids have the ability to wrestle in college). So... I spent extra time just watching to see what the fuss was all about. I watched as the kids corner each other many times that day. One of their state quailifier level kids got a good match against another good kid. 5 seconds into the match the head coach starts to yell “throw him in a headlock”!!!! True story!! 

One of the best kids from this team has left the school. The school that he left for is rated much higher academically also. 

Again... with alll of this said... are you to suggest that the parents just stick with the course that they were on???? I say no way!!! No way this family sacrifices opportunity for their child to get better coaching, partners, and education just because some other people think that a handful of kids moving is going to “kill” high school wrestling. 

I also spoke with the dad of a state champ today. His son moved schools right before high school. He is of the opinion that the state championship may not have happened and his colleges offers may not have been there, if they stayed put. Can we blame this family for “killing” high school wrestling???

I really don’t think that these kids moving to get what they need will kill high school wrestling.

I typically don’t post an opinion on a topic like this without posting a suggestion to help (try not to complain without helping). With that said, we have a great coaches accociation within our state. The resources that our high school coaches have are abundant. With this said, if a coach or coaches have an issue with kids leaving certain failing programs, then they need to OFFER THEM HELP. I really think that coaches helping coaches could have a much larger impact on our sport then a kid or two leaving a handful of programs for greener pastures. 

Btw... just heard that Center Grove signed two great coaches. Saw a couple for sale signs in wrestling famliys yards today!!! I kid I kid! 

Def tough to watch... and like you said every situation is different and the 1 you're referring to is heart breaking.. gotta love those kids though 4 making the best of their situation and putting in the off season work to close the gap.. the instance you are referring to is a prime example of a proper transfer... you can't put a price on a kid's success especially when you in know how talented those boys are and aren't getting the proper hs guidance. 

Edited by FCFIGHTER170

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I hate to burst your bubble, but winning a state title in Indiana does very little to boost your college stock. Placing at the big national events does more for you than anything. Thus transferring so you get into a "high profile" program won't do you any good unless you hit the national scene AND have success. We have had many multiple time state champs that never sniffed national rankings due to not having the national success. 

On top of that if you want to wrestle in college you can, most schools not DI will take walkons and they don't care if you were a state placer or even a lowly semi-state qualifier. I know Indiana Tech has done quite well with some kids that never made it to state. I am sure if you show interest in them Tommy will take you. That goes along with any of the smaller schools in the state. Ask @dstruck how to get a kid that isn't a state qualifier onto a college team. 

I never once stated that you had to be a state champion in order to get recruited. Indiana has had a good amount of success on the national level without being a state medalist, I completely agree.

Once again, if they are not in a competitive training environment or if their HS coach does not run a freestyle club, how do they get better? Yes, there are RTCs (too many, IMO) but that is only once or twice a week. What happens if you cannot afford training outside of your room?

Perry Meridian is a fantastic example - Tonte implemented a year-round training cycle and helped raise the funds to provide an elite environment for kids (he is still doing so at Warren Central). That included high school season, freestyle season (National Duals & Fargo), and Disney Duals. I feel like this is a prime example. Matt is doing a damn good job carrying on the tradition, if you ask me. 

As for walking-on to college wrestling team - here is my point. It is not affordable for everyone. To attend Purdue, and in-state institution, is an average cost of $15K/year. To attend Indiana Tech, as a walk-on, is an average cost of $24K after financial aid. That is a lot of money in loans.

I know there is money to be handed out for the high achievers in academics, grants, etc. However, that still does not make things affordable for everyone. A lot of these high school athletes are banking on their academic and athletic achievements to receive that higher education.

My point is that if you are serious enough about the sport, and want to wrestle at the next level, you will most likely seek out an elite training environment to prep you for the in-season tournaments, the post-season tournaments, and those off-season tournaments that grant you national attention. You reap the benefits of the time you put in - whether it be accomplishments or scholarships.

Edited by Riley McClurg

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I’m with Y2 on the college thing. My son is a Semi State Qualifier , he has-  I believe 8 schools currently recruiting him - he is not a world beater , starting wrestling in middle school and played 3 sports for the first 2 years and  only 1 sports last year due to injury.  We didn’t do much summer wrestling and he didn’t do great in the summer events we attended.  Some of the schools he reached out too and others reached out to us.  He will be wrestling in college and I believe he will have a very good financial package based on preliminary dealings. We have to do fasfa and see where we are.  

 

This is where I say the small school environment helped him - he progressed quickly with the attention he was able to get - I was brought on as a volunteer coach and we were able to lift , train and condition when it fit around our schedule. Coach Diaz rearranges his schedule on a regular basis to accommodate the kids that do want to put in the work. At a larger school we would have never been able to change things around to accommodate 3 or 4 kids.  And since only 4-6 kids work in the off season we are able too. That directly benefited my son and his development. 

 

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I wish I knew the moderator well enough to control this conversation thread!  hehe

The theory i'm trying to bring up is the long term ramifications of quality transfers going to power programs and the result it will have on the smaller/weaker schools over time.  

1 hour ago, Riley McClurg said:

He goes to where he can improve and get the attention of college coaches. Yes, Eddie, there are the Mitch Sliga's of the world. Let's not forget the room where he was supplementing his training for the other 8 months out of year (Seth Riley happened to attend a good bit as well). However, not every kid's family can afford to pay $200-$300 per month for a private academy. Not every kid has the training partners at their expense

We hope that the room at CIA helped Sliga improve his game in the time he was there, and you are absolutely correct that Sliga introduced Seth Riley to our room also.  Again, we hope we helped supplement his training too!  

But doesn't this help make the statement of spreading out the growth of our sport in many schools is better?  If Sliga would have wrestled for a different school than Fishers, do you really believe that Seth Riley qualifies for state?  Wouldn't this be a quality thing for wrestling as a whole?

If we look at the list of transfers on the other thread.  How many of the names listed attend an academy similar to Sliga?  

1 hour ago, Riley McClurg said:

The open enrollment rule was implemented by the State of Indiana. Families do what they think is best for their kids

I'm the Lorax.  I speak for the trees.

If families "do whats best for their kids" and transfer from smaller/weaker programs, is that going to be the demise of smaller/weaker schools to drop their programs.  What has happened to our failing public schools since they started open enrollment?  Can we use that number and an example of what could happen to wrestling programs in our state?

 

I really like this anaolgy.  If i could invent a machine that could instantly fix broken arms with no pain whatsoever.  The only downfall is that this machine cost $700 trillion dollars to make.  If somone's kid broke their arm, I would say, "I bet that hurts like hell" because there's not chance I would be in favor of ruining  America's economy to make a machine that would make a kids broken arm go away.....but if my daughter broke her arm you can bet your ass I think its a good investment!

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Btw my intention isn't to bash any coaches but just like any other job you should be held accountable for their services especially when it's at the expense of a kids future..I respect anybody that contributes to the sport but imho a head coach should be held to a certain standard and if it's obvious he or she isn't capable of leading then it's time to move on. 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Ed Pendoski said:

I wish I knew the moderator well enough to control this conversation thread!  hehe

The theory i'm trying to bring up is the long term ramifications of quality transfers going to power programs and the result it will have on the smaller/weaker schools over time.  

We hope that the room at CIA helped Sliga improve his game in the time he was there, and you are absolutely correct that Sliga introduced Seth Riley to our room also.  Again, we hope we helped supplement his training too!  

But doesn't this help make the statement of spreading out the growth of our sport in many schools is better?  If Sliga would have wrestled for a different school than Fishers, do you really believe that Seth Riley qualifies for state?  Wouldn't this be a quality thing for wrestling as a whole?

If we look at the list of transfers on the other thread.  How many of the names listed attend an academy similar to Sliga?  

I'm the Lorax.  I speak for the trees.

If families "do whats best for their kids" and transfer from smaller/weaker programs, is that going to be the demise of smaller/weaker schools to drop their programs.  What has happened to our failing public schools since they started open enrollment?  Can we use that number and an example of what could happen to wrestling programs in our state?

 

I really like this anaolgy.  If i could invent a machine that could instantly fix broken arms with no pain whatsoever.  The only downfall is that this machine cost $700 trillion dollars to make.  If somone's kid broke their arm, I would say, "I bet that hurts like hell" because there's not chance I would be in favor of ruining  America's economy to make a machine that would make a kids broken arm go away.....but if my daughter broke her arm you can bet your ass I think its a good investment!

I am not calling you out, P, but we both know that Mitch Sliga spent 2x more time in CIA's room than he did Fishers. He did not need to go searching elsewhere to receive support or partners because you provided that to him through CIA, and he was in there on a year-round basis. Seth trained with us from middle school through high school. Do I believe Mitch was the reason why? Damn straight. Do I believe Seth could have been a state placer without Mitch? Very possible because he was an athletic specimen, but I am not very good at "what ifs". I do know that Mitch nor the CIA room taught him to throw people on their heads like he was at the state tournament in 2013. I'll give that credit to Greco-Roman master, Coach Herald.

As for the names listed on the thread, I can tell you I see them wrestling on a consistent basis in the off-season with teams that are not their HS - whether its Disney Duals, VB Duals, etc. They are seizing opportunities provided to them by other schools or clubs (Outlaws or someone like Penn or B. South taking wildcards to Disney). I am sure they are expanding their training environment.

As for transferring "leading to the demise" - it will not happen. Yes, it has happened in gymnastics and soccer. Why? They are training for a spot at the OTC or a developmental team in middle school. Just ask Coach Vega! AND, these sports are much more expensive to play, which weeds out a bit of the competition quickly. Wrestling is completely different. For some odd reason, the USA decides to wrestle a style that is not recognized by one other country. So, the three sports are not very comparable. Hence why the Lees, Snyder, Downey, etc. forwent their senior years of high school to train and wrestle in some of the toughest international tournaments in the country. Their end mindset is on Olympic Gold, not an NCAA trophy or scholarship (which they all happened to receive, anyways). The general consensus of wrestlers across the country have their goals set on wrestling at the collegiate level, so they need all the exposure that they can get.

I do not know about what failing enrollment you are talking about, but if we look at IPS's failure it is due to the fact of open enrollment. The kids and families realized that there were better and safer opportunities than the ones that they were receiving. The failing enrollment cannot being caused by the minimal amount of kids that transfer out to a "stronger program", if that is what you are referring to. However, the failing enrollment can be accredited to the more academically inclined individuals leaving for a better curriculum.

Once again, this is just my opinion. 

 

Edited by Riley McClurg

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39 minutes ago, Riley McClurg said:

I never once stated that you had to be a state champion in order to get recruited. Indiana has had a good amount of success on the national level without being a state medalist, I completely agree.

Once again, if they are not in a competitive training environment or if their HS coach does not run a freestyle club, how do they get better? Yes, there are RTCs (too many, IMO) but that is only once or twice a week. What happens if you cannot afford training outside of your room?

Perry Meridian is a fantastic example - Tonte implemented a year-round training cycle and helped raise the funds to provide an elite environment for kids (he is still doing so at Warren Central). That included high school season, freestyle season (National Duals & Fargo), and Disney Duals. I feel like this is a prime example. Matt is doing a damn good job carrying on the tradition, if you ask me. 

As for walking-on to college wrestling team - here is my point. It is not affordable for everyone. To attend Purdue, and in-state institution, is an average cost of $15K/year. To attend Indiana Tech, as a walk-on, is an average cost of $24K after financial aid. That is a lot of money in loans.

I know there is money to be handed out for the high achievers in academics, grants, etc. However, that still does not make things affordable for everyone. A lot of these high school athletes are banking on their academic and athletic achievements to receive that higher education.

My point is that if you are serious enough about the sport, and want to wrestle at the next level, you will most likely seek out an elite training environment to prep you for the in-season tournaments, the post-season tournaments, and those off-season tournaments that grant you national attention. You reap the benefits of the time you put in - whether it be accomplishments or scholarships.

No one pays that much to go to Indiana Tech. All private schools have a high sticker price, but give lots of grants and aid. You can go to Indiana Tech for the same amount as a state school.

On top of that very few Indiana kids going off to college are getting their school paid for due to wrestling. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

No one pays that much to go to Indiana Tech. All private schools have a high sticker price, but give lots of grants and aid. You can go to Indiana Tech for the same amount as a state school.

On top of that very few Indiana kids going off to college are getting their school paid for due to wrestling. 

There is a lot more that goes into it - the grants and aid, that is. If you are in that middle class FAFSA tier, then you are not receiving any aid. No matter how many kids you've put through college - the breaks are not very easy to come by. I wish it was.

You are right, very few do get full scholarships due to the fact that the NCAA allots 9.9 scholarships to fully funded wrestling programs. The NAIA is different as your allotment depends on the academic performance of your team throughout the year based on how much athletic money they were granted, which generally leads to almost double the amount of scholarships allotted to NCAA institutions. That is why people like Coach Pompei are able to field 50-kid college teams - I would like to know how much of the money is academic/grant/athletic/aid. As for the NCAA, you're lucky if you have more than 25 or 30.

You are making the process seem very simple, but I believe that it is not. However, if you are good enough, then the money gets pulled out of the cracks. I feel like if it was as easy as you make it sound, then we would see a much higher amount of Indiana HS wrestlers at the next level (Coach Pompei & Bradley are leading the charge, though). As for @dstruck, you are right. He has forged bonds and relationships with college coaches across the country - and he truly cares about the kids! What if you don't have a Danny Struck as your coach? Than what? He is one of few.

Edited by Riley McClurg

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Seems as though in today’s liberal society we our being hit in the face with movements. These movements have the purpose to save people, places, or things. 

I propose the “Not here!” movement. This movement is 100 percent do not transfer. If a stud (8th grade and up) moves into your school district, you make them sit a season.

“But wait” you say... “what if my AD doesn’t let me sit them?” To that, we at the “Not Here” movement say... “your the coach, you set the line up. Put them on JV for the season.”

I propose that all coaches that feel as if transfers are “killing” are sport, join this “Not Here” movement! With this said, how many coaches are willing to do there part in putting an end to this transfer thing?? Anyone.... anyone... ???? 

Of couse I do not support the movement that I made up. The thing is this... what good does it do to talk about this when not one coach turns away a stud??? No need to talk about it if nobody is will to take action.

Anonymous letters to the IHSAA don’t seem to be working either! 

This is my point... it is what it is. If we as a wrestling community see a neighboring school’s program failing, then we need to step up and help when we can. That’s gonna to help keep wrestling alive in communities way more than harping on 10 or do transfers statewide per year.

All this talk and no solutions is solving nothing. 

Just my opinion. 

#NotHere! (Who’s with me!!!!)

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

There are a lot of great points on here, but the one thing wrestling still has going for it is that kids do value a high school state championship and your best kids in the state are participating in the high school programs.  Maybe soccer is a better comparison than gymnastics and what you should fear.  From what I hear and see, HS soccer kids value and believe their club teams are much more important than their high school teams and they don't play for their school.  That takes the best kids out of the high school programs and the level of competition at the high school is not close to what they get in the club.  While the best kids in HS wrestling know they will need to compete at a national level for a scholarship opportunity, so far there are not in season opportunities for kids to go wrestle all over the state against better kids during the HS season.  Are some super top level kids skipping their senior year to go the OTC or go their college's RTC, yeah.  So far it is a very small number which is a good thing.

Actually most of what you said is exactly what has happened to gymnastics over the past few decades and probably more so that what we are seeing at the soccer level.  I tried to express that same point in an earlier post but the point of my message got jumbled up.  We are indeed losing them completely from HS athletics, not just transfers to top teams, which is leading to less competition and dwindling programs in some areas.  Similar to what we could see in wrestling but due to kids going the club route not due to the top schools gathering to much transfer talent.  You expressed what I was trying to say pretty well in the opening part of this post.  

Edited by MattM

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3 hours ago, Riley McClurg said:

we both know that Mitch Sliga spent 2x more time in CIA's room than he did Fishers. He did not need to go searching elsewhere to receive support or partners because you provided that to him through CIA, and he was in there on a year-round basis. Seth trained with us from middle school through high school. Do I believe Mitch was the reason why? Damn straight. Do I believe Seth could have been a state placer without Mitch? Very possible because he was an athletic specimen, but I am not very good at "what ifs". I do know that Mitch nor the CIA room taught him to throw people on their heads like he was at the state tournament in 2013. I'll give that credit to Greco-Roman master, Coach Herald.

As for the names listed on the thread, I can tell you I see them wrestling on a consistent basis in the off-season with teams that are not their HS - whether its Disney Duals, VB Duals, etc. They are seizing opportunities provided to them by other schools or clubs (Outlaws or someone like Penn or B. South taking wildcards to Disney). I am sure they are expanding their training environment.

Maybe I'm not reading correctly.  The way I'm reading this, it sounds like you are giving examples of kids don't need to transfer from smaller/weaker programs and that there are benefits to kids staying local.  Would you agree that Sliga staying at Fishers played a part in Seth Riley's success and if Sliga didn't transfer that part of Riley's success was there because Sliga stayed in his feeder program's high school?

 

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42 minutes ago, Ed Pendoski said:

Maybe I'm not reading correctly.  The way I'm reading this, it sounds like you are giving examples of kids don't need to transfer from smaller/weaker programs and that there are benefits to kids staying local.  Would you agree that Sliga staying at Fishers played a part in Seth Riley's success and if Sliga didn't transfer that part of Riley's success was there because Sliga stayed in his feeder program's high school?

 

I’m saying that it did not matter in Sliga’s case. It would not have mattered if he went to Spring Valley Community High School. He supplemented the vast majority of his training under your watch at CIA. His family was able to afford that monthly fee to get elite training. You were able to provide him with wrestlers like Michael Duckworth, Jackson Bratcher, Austin Neibarger, and let’s not forgot the bazillion private workouts that you were able to provide him with as a separate entity from Fishers HS. So, what I am saying is that Sliga is a bad example. Seth Riley attended the right school at the right time, and he followed Mitch’s footsteps to your academy. Did he benefit from Sliga? Heck yeah. So would have the other kids at any other high school he attended because of the time, effort, and money he spent to be under your training. 

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