Does Indiana Wrestling Need Divisions?

[Beamaker]

1 hour ago, Zach Richards said:

 

 

Maybe kids at smaller schools aren't as focused on 1 sport like kids at the bigger schools.  Maybe kids at smaller schools just haven't been exposed to see how hard you have to work to place in the top 4.  Maybe kids at smaller schools don't get access to the same resources as kids at bigger schools.  

 

 

 

 

This! All of this is true and accurate..and there’s more factors too. Many have been mentioned already.

 

i have been following this thread and enjoying the discussion.

Here comes the purely anecdotal part…worth nothing I know, but just wanted to share.

 

Background: I attended Hobart in the late 80’s and had the good fortune to be a part of 2 State championship teams. I know first hand the sacrifices and dedication it takes to be part of something successful at a larger school. (Only 5 classes back then).

 

I have 6 sons, all wrestlers for a 1A school listed in Y2s list, out here in no man’s land. Wrestling was always the top focus for all my boys, despite participating in football, CC, track, and baseball. Their high school does not have a strong wrestling culture or history. We were blessed to have a coach who was working his azz off to build one, and had built up numbers and some pride, but that somewhat evaporated when he left.

I sent the boys to some camps at Purdue, or even out in Ohio. My boys were very well respected in our area and experienced success at Sectionals and Regionals; however, upon multiple births to EC SS, they were all soundly sent packing…every time.

My boys harbor no sour feelings about any of these things and take great pride in their wrestling accomplishments…so, I have posted all this to relay:

 

I posed this very question to my boys (ages 29-19) and all but one  responded with a resounding NO to class wrestling in IN.  For them, one of the best parts about wrestling was finding out just who the absolute best is, even when they know it’s not them. One of my sons, who was a 3x ECSS qualifier, said it like this, “Yea, maybe I coulda made a deep run in a 1A state tourney, but I would have much rather went out on my shield at ECSS each time, knowing I was seeing the best in our part of the state.”

 

It’s  easier to experience success at a small school wrestling, presuming you work hard and do the grind, than experiencing success as part of a team at a small school.  Reasons like commitment from fellow team mates, injuries, harvest, etc etc all factor in for small rural schools that require 5, 9, or 11 athletes.  Now the success a kid experiences may not culminate in them landing on the podium at state, but it doesn’t negate the success leading up to the day they exit the tournament. Wrestling, ultimately is about preparing for life. The IN tournament is imperfect and downright mean sometimes. Just like life can be. I put my boys into wrestling shortly after their mom passed from cancer. My oldest was 12 at the time. Wrestling helped  them through the grief and prepare them to have the tools to deal with adversity, challenges and also develop character, humility, perseverance, integrity, discipline and determination.   112 athletes hit the podiums each year in IN, which means there are a host of athletes who do not, but are the beneficiaries of tremendous gifts such as motivation, fortitude, humility, perspective, and reality. None of those are bad things.

 

All anecdotal, and worth exactly what you paid for it!

[Observing]

Let’s say class wrestling happens, should small school wrestlers be allowed to wrestle up as individuals for the tournament?  I honestly think some would prefer that. 

[Disco]

15 minutes ago, Observing said:

Let’s say class wrestling happens, should small school wrestlers be allowed to wrestle up as individuals for the tournament?  I honestly think some would prefer that. 

Don’t think too far ahead! Lol

[graham]

14 hours ago, Beamaker said:

This! All of this is true and accurate..and there’s more factors too. Many have been mentioned already.

 

i have been following this thread and enjoying the discussion.

Here comes the purely anecdotal part…worth nothing I know, but just wanted to share.

 

Background: I attended Hobart in the late 80’s and had the good fortune to be a part of 2 State championship teams. I know first hand the sacrifices and dedication it takes to be part of something successful at a larger school. (Only 5 classes back then).

 

I have 6 sons, all wrestlers for a 1A school listed in Y2s list, out here in no man’s land. Wrestling was always the top focus for all my boys, despite participating in football, CC, track, and baseball. Their high school does not have a strong wrestling culture or history. We were blessed to have a coach who was working his azz off to build one, and had built up numbers and some pride, but that somewhat evaporated when he left.

I sent the boys to some camps at Purdue, or even out in Ohio. My boys were very well respected in our area and experienced success at Sectionals and Regionals; however, upon multiple births to EC SS, they were all soundly sent packing…every time.

My boys harbor no sour feelings about any of these things and take great pride in their wrestling accomplishments…so, I have posted all this to relay:

 

I posed this very question to my boys (ages 29-19) and all but one  responded with a resounding NO to class wrestling in IN.  For them, one of the best parts about wrestling was finding out just who the absolute best is, even when they know it’s not them. One of my sons, who was a 3x ECSS qualifier, said it like this, “Yea, maybe I coulda made a deep run in a 1A state tourney, but I would have much rather went out on my shield at ECSS each time, knowing I was seeing the best in our part of the state.”

 

It’s  easier to experience success at a small school wrestling, presuming you work hard and do the grind, than experiencing success as part of a team at a small school.  Reasons like commitment from fellow team mates, injuries, harvest, etc etc all factor in for small rural schools that require 5, 9, or 11 athletes.  Now the success a kid experiences may not culminate in them landing on the podium at state, but it doesn’t negate the success leading up to the day they exit the tournament. Wrestling, ultimately is about preparing for life. The IN tournament is imperfect and downright mean sometimes. Just like life can be. I put my boys into wrestling shortly after their mom passed from cancer. My oldest was 12 at the time. Wrestling helped  them through the grief and prepare them to have the tools to deal with adversity, challenges and also develop character, humility, perseverance, integrity, discipline and determination.   112 athletes hit the podiums each year in IN, which means there are a host of athletes who do not, but are the beneficiaries of tremendous gifts such as motivation, fortitude, humility, perspective, and reality. None of those are bad things.

 

All anecdotal, and worth exactly what you paid for it!

 

 

I second this.  And kudos to you for hanging in there for your kids the way you did.
 

I didn’t wrestle as much as my sons have, but I had a brutal upbringing. The little wrestling I did helped teach me I could persevere and rise above in the face of hardship and adversity.  
 

My sons have a much more stable and comfortable upbringing, but I introduced them all to wrestling because I wanted them to learn what it has to teach.  
 

In that theme, I think the IN state tournament in its current form is perfect.  Especially in an ever-softening world. 

[HeadLocksWinChampionships]

I think the entire tournament should be single elimination. Sectional champs wrestle at Regionals, the winner goes to Semi State, the winner of Semi State goes to State, and the winner is the champ... SOLVED IT! We could probable do this in 3 weekends. 

[graham]

7 minutes ago, HeadLocksWinChampionships said:

I think the entire tournament should be single elimination. Sectional champs wrestle at Regionals, the winner goes to Semi State, the winner of Semi State goes to State, and the winner is the champ... SOLVED IT! We could probable do this in 3 weekends. 

With all I said, I would prefer single-class AND wrestle-backs if it could be made to work.  So maybe “perfect” wasn’t the right word to use.  

Edited March 6 by graham

[piscis1956]

32 minutes ago, HeadLocksWinChampionships said:

I think the entire tournament should be single elimination. Sectional champs wrestle at Regionals, the winner goes to Semi State, the winner of Semi State goes to State, and the winner is the champ... SOLVED IT! We could probable do this in 3 weekends. 

When I was young that was the way it was … except without semi-states.  It took a bit more than 3 weekends though, because sectionals were large and took some week nights, too.

[Y2CJ41]

1 hour ago, graham said:

With all I said, I would prefer single-class AND wrestle-backs if it could be made to work.  So maybe “perfect” wasn’t the right word to use.  

Why make our wrestling softer and have wrestle-backs? Should we give kids a second chance after they lose? Life's tough, when I lose $25k on poor investments, I don't get a redo and get that money back.

[graham]

16 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Why make our wrestling softer and have wrestle-backs? Should we give kids a second chance after they lose? Life's tough, when I lose $25k on poor investments, I don't get a redo and get that money back.

 

I can see an argument where the absence of wrestle-backs add a brutal dose of reality in that sometimes life seems like the a spin of the roulette wheel.  Coming up short in that type of scenario—like a ticket rounder who’s actually a “top four in the state” wrestler—that type of experience could likely teach good lessons.  (Not sure if you’re being sarcastic, I haven’t read through a lot of these class wrestling threads and don’t know what your position on it is). 

But honestly, would I really want that experience for my kid?  A lot of stuff will teach good lessons that I’d rather them not go through. 

 

The main reason for my position on wrestle-backs is I think it would add integrity to the tournament to truly find out who the best is. 
 

My opinion is my own and based on what I think is best for my kids.  I respect everyone else’s opinion as well, and can see the small school perspective.  This is just my .02

Edited March 6 by graham

[Wrestling Scholar]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Why make our wrestling softer and have wrestle-backs? Should we give kids a second chance after they lose? Life's tough, when I lose $25k on poor investments, I don't get a redo and get that money back.

I see the sarcasm, but to that point: you would get a $25K tax write-off as a consolation and get some of it back.  

[indypharmd]

Having spent a bit more time in Iowa over the past few months, I've spoken to quite a few other UI athlete's parents about how Iowa HS sports offered and believe there's some interesting tidbits that Indiana may wish to ponder. 

1. Schools let athletes compete in more than one sport in a season.

2. Track and baseball are not in the same season.

3. There are four sport athletes (and a few 5 sport athletes) given #1 & #2 above.

4. Not every team or individual makes the post season, decreasing number of tournament weekends.

5. They play state final games and wrestle state finals series during the week due to multiple class structure.

 

My kid wanted to play MS basketball but was told by school admins he had to choose btwn wrestling or basketball and wouldn't be allowed to do both. Choice made for him.

 

During late elementary years, he really liked baseball. Could bang them over the fence before anyone else in Little League, but daddy ball politics soured that really quickly. Started wrestling GR/FR during "baseball season" and a few years later placed at Fargo...

 

Do think that multiple sport participation can help combat burnout for athletes later in HS - often different friend/teammate circles, pressures/expectations are different, etc. 

 

However, if the kid desires to get to an elite level with aspirations of making it to college to compete, then extra time, practices and sacrifices have to be made to reach that dream. In Division 1, football offers 85 full "headcount" scholarships and basketball has 13; then all the rest of the sports have equivalency scholarships: wrestling 9.9, baseball 11.7, etc. So, if the goal is to go on a ride to college, play the numbers math -- baseball is not it if you're not a pitcher or Babe Ruth...

 

My kid was lucky he had a choice whether to play football or wrestle collegiately in the B1G, but the wrestling training in the "off season" is what prepared him to be able to make that choice and specifically with the training that Chad Red (C-Red) provided which is so much more than what is only on the mat...

 

So rather than pressure kids that have dreams to wrestle after HS to play baseball, run CC/track, etc., help them find a way to train and travel to get those opportunities presented to them through their body of work. 

 

When speaking to parents with young kids, I often suggest 1 team sport and 1 individual sport to narrow down to as they get closer to middle school which usually works except for baseball where the pressure is for year around training and travel teams. (There's a good reason DSG and other companies are heavy promoters of youth sports... hahaha...) The intense schedules of basketball travel & baseball travel are atrocious... At least w/ wrestling off season tournaments, you get to choose whether or not to go and it doesn't impact the team, etc.

 

So, circling back around to the divisions question... How's this sound?

1. Make 2 divisions,
2. Eliminate sectionals
3. Must qualify for a regional and add wrestlebacks (maybe throw a "true second" round in for seeding purposes and extra drama) & advance 3 to state
4. Run state over multiple days w/ wrestlebacks but no true second round for state finals

 

[Galagore]

Really like your idea on how to class the sport in our state, and that's outstanding that your son had so much success. If any of my posts indicated that kids should be pressured into doing multiple sports, then I have misrepresented myself. All of my posts were in reference to my apprehension to pressure kids not to do other sports and instead to focus on wrestling. If a wrestler wants to go hard in the spring and the summer, I am right there to help them along the journey. If the baseball coach wants to try and convince that kid to play baseball instead of doing extra wrestling....well, that's exactly what I do do the kids who say they want to "lift for football" instead of wrestle in the fall. Never press too hard, but it's OK to make a pitch to a kid to have multiple experiences and help multiple programs growing up.

[Observing]

Reading through, sounds like top level gains are achieved outside of the high school season. Maybe there should be a separate class for the financially disadvantaged. Clubs and travel tournaments must cost quite a bit. 

[Y2CJ41]

1 hour ago, Observing said:

Reading through, sounds like top level gains are achieved outside of the high school season. Maybe there should be a separate class for the financially disadvantaged. Clubs and travel tournaments must cost quite a bit. 

You make a great point. I'd love to hear from parents and see what they spent on events, training, gear, etc over the years. I asked one parent of a top wrestler what do you think you've spent on training, events, etc and he laughed, then said "I don't even want to think about THAT!" 

[MUSKEEWRESTLER]

I was just thinking about this a lot this week.  Very good friends of a family with one of the best young wrestlers in the state.  They are going to ISWA this weekend, Iowa for team Indiana at the end of the month, and Virginia Beach in May.  That is just a VERY SMALL sampling of where there going.  Add into that all of the hotels, meals, club fees, new shoes, singlet's, new club paraphernalia all of the time it adds up to thousands of $$$$.  They are very blessed and can afford it, but what do the people that don't have these benefits do.  This to me is a much bigger issue than class wrestling.

[TeamGarcia]

6 pages in, still no class wrestling in Indiana. 
 

I WAS EXPECTING IHSAA TO MAKE A STATEMENT. 

 

Apparently, Class Basketball has their attention. How’s that doing ? Needs to go back to the big bracket of the 1990’s . What a Joke ! 

Edited March 9 by TeamGarcia

[MUSKEEWRESTLER]

On 3/9/2024 at 6:36 PM, TeamGarcia said:

6 pages in, still no class wrestling in Indiana. 
 

I WAS EXPECTING IHSAA TO MAKE A STATEMENT. 

 

Apparently, Class Basketball has their attention. How’s that doing ? Needs to go back to the big bracket of the 1990’s . What a Joke ! 

When gym's were packed and entire schools got excited!!!

[TeamGarcia]

3 hours ago, MUSKEEWRESTLER said:

When gym's were packed and entire schools got excited!!!

Always loved going to Muncie Central Fieldhouse or Wigwam in Anderson, New Castle . Those places was packed to the rafters for games . 

[ILUV2PIN]

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12300025-2024-ncaa-wrestling-championship-qualifiers-by-state

[crosstownrivals]

Here is the best idea ever! 
1: Your team can enter 14 kids no matter what weight.

2: you can enter whatever sectional you want.

3: if you qualify for regionals your team can pick their regional and then same for semi state. Schools covers all cost
4: if you don’t like your draw or how you finish you can do a one day last chance qualifier on Thursday before state. But must make scratch weight on Friday if state.

 

Hopefully you all know I’m being sarcastic here. The state will never change how wrestling is done. We are the arm pit of high school sports. 
 

 

[Cmoney125]

8 hours ago, crosstownrivals said:

Here is the best idea ever! 
1: Your team can enter 14 kids no matter what weight.

2: you can enter whatever sectional you want.

3: if you qualify for regionals your team can pick their regional and then same for semi state. Schools covers all cost
4: if you don’t like your draw or how you finish you can do a one day last chance qualifier on Thursday before state. But must make scratch weight on Friday if state.

 

Hopefully you all know I’m being sarcastic here. The state will never change how wrestling is done. We are the arm pit of high school sports. 
 

 

Well saying we are the armpit of high school sports is excessive. I've live in Virginia and South Carolina and Indiana is exponentially better than those states. Wrestlebacks are the only thing missing from making the wrestling tournament perfect. Let's relax with the hyperbole.

[Galagore]

5 hours ago, Cmoney125 said:

Well saying we are the armpit of high school sports is excessive. I've live in Virginia and South Carolina and Indiana is exponentially better than those states. Wrestlebacks are the only thing missing from making the wrestling tournament perfect. Let's relax with the hyperbole.

 

Well, wrestlebacks and classes....in reverse order:}

[Alduflux]

First time seeing this post. 

Can someone do a TLDR for this thread?

Is there anything new relative to other years' variations of this topic?

Edited March 15 by Alduflux

[Wrestling Scholar]

2 hours ago, Alduflux said:

 

Is there anything new relative to other years' variations of this topic?

Not really

[rookie78]

So, has a decision been made?