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Just now, Y2CJ41 said:

In an era of illegal kids, I could see a team not weighing in a weak wrestler that would get pinned just to save 3 team points each dual.

that's a decision that their team needs to make... I like that option better than pulling that kid and replacing with a "wild card" , IMHO

 

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Just now, NSego said:

that's a decision that their team needs to make... I like that option better than pulling that kid and replacing with a "wild card" , IMHO

 

I'm not going to disagree, there are just enough shady people that no matter a rule you make they will find ways around it. I haven't been a big fan of the elementary duals because that level of competition and win at all costs attitude isn't good for the kids.

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4 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

I haven't been a big fan of the elementary duals because that level of competition and win at all costs attitude isn't good for the kids.

what I like about elementary duals is that I get to "sit" in one place and watch my entire team wrestle one after another.  it does help me "see" what everyone need to work on or patterns we need to work on.   And historically, I have found that the kids who "gut" it out thru the very competitive duals season tend to do VERY well in the individual season....

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As someone who plans on attending next year since I'll have more time to organize and prep I told darrick I won't use the wildcard...I'm competitive and really wanna win but this isnt the end goal for me keep these kids out and get them to MS I'm fairly confident at that point we got em for HS

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2 hours ago, Clint Gard said:

You don't have to start November 1st, just have sign ups.  I agree with you on the length of season.  I'd be fine with a December 1st date as well.  I agree with you, you would have "All-Star" teams but at least they would have to be part of your club and at least everyone else knows what's going on.  If I've got a guy on my team from Richmond, Indiana then people know two things...he's a member of my club and he is probably not an active part of my club.  Nobody from Richmond is going to travel to Rochester to practice with my club.  Now, if I've got a kid from Plymouth, then most likely they are practicing with us and it can be argued/proven they are an active member.  Maybe I'm making it too simple...but I'm open to anything that allows for a level playing field.  What are your thoughts?

First off, I didn't realize there were some of these issues. I honestly don't follow who all the other teams roster.  My initial gut feeling is that if we go away from the school affiliation/ limited wild cards, then we are just opening it up like all the other summer duals that out there. It would be the travel teams/ training academies dominating. We have entered a team for the last 5 years or so. The first couple was in a one class set up. I know we did not have the depth to compete with the larger school clubs, but we did it anyway. I viewed it as a way to get my kids exposed to the top/ state level kids out there. It was a way for us to take 15-20 of my kids (that wouldn't be going to a state level event otherwise) along with 2-3 wildcards to a high level event. The ultimate goal was to get more of our kids competing at the individual state events and each year we have a few more kids going to those.

It is unfortunate if teams are crossing lines to get the win. I figure they have to live with that, not me. We take our team there to compete and will continue to do so. We also do local duals knowing that some teams are basically all stars. I do not get hung up on the wins and losses at this level. I just want my kids progressing. 

I know that may not really have answered your question, but that is how I view the duals. 

Full disclosure is that I do use wildcards (per the rules). I have never turned away one of my kids that wanted to go for a wildcard. I always take my kids first then fill in the roster with wildcards. 

Tony

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Posted (edited)

Almost every team at the state elementary duals loads there team up with kids that aren't attending their school district. Wild cards are definitely misused but for some schools they are good thing. The school my son attends can't fill an elementary roster so they use wild cards but they use the wild cards at the weights they don't have a kid at... they don't use it to bring in a hammer and make one of their own sit.

Edited by Wrestlingaddict101

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19 minutes ago, TripleB said:

We always used our “wildcards” on kids that are part of our club but their home schools don’t offer what we do. They wrestle w us from Nov - May. 

To be fair no other club is able to offer anything close to the TripleB treatment. 

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Wow! I was going to put a team together a team for the elementary school duals next year because I thought it would be a good way to not overwhelm parents with crazy tourneys. I really didn’t think there would be cheating at this level. That is against everything I feel this sport is about. Bunch of jerk faces. 

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Poste

  410

JMILL
   On 1/1/2018 at 9:59 PM, lewdwar said: 

Every year I bring this up. Let’s see what schools need to bring in extra kids to win. 

every year you bring it up and every year the teams all comply with the guidelines set forth by the ISWA......even Perry so thanks.  good luck to all teams

 

 

I don’t understand what everyone is talking about “all teams comply with the guidelines set forth by the ISWA” per Miller 

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2 hours ago, aoberlin said:

Wow! I was going to put a team together a team for the elementary school duals next year because I thought it would be a good way to not overwhelm parents with crazy tourneys. I really didn’t think there would be cheating at this level. That is against everything I feel this sport is about. Bunch of jerk faces. 

It's still a great idea to put a team together! Kids still get more mat time and its normally a very well ran tournament/dual. Kids cheering teammates on, normally 5 matches a day, not as chaotic. I love the duals its just one of those unfortunate things you can't avoid that people lie about stuff... or they recruit kids to "join" their club that they know won't be attending their schools. 

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16 hours ago, JMILL said:

OMG.............I AGREE WITH THIS POST & its CREATOR !!!

what in the world is going on here ???  

no way I can leave work now as I am clearly gonna get into an accident or struck by lightning on way home !!!! 

Maybe this kind of good fortune will carry over to my arrival home this evening.....honey if you are reading this ?????

I don't like the idea of kids not making a lineup in elementary (which happens)..........we used to use the angle of "they cut in basketball, but everyone wrestles"  now we have JV teams for elementary (which is fine), but we also have times that the elementary kid doesn't make the line up and goes a few weeks without wrestling ..... duals used to be faster, now we elementary super duals and duals tourneys (which starts the long days for parents at a younger age); "we" now even follow the baseball model that pushes kids to join "all-star" teams.  Read a great article on how all-star baseball has contributed to the lack of "community" around america, and we followed. 

BACK IN THE DAY (man, I sound old enough to be Tonte or even Bob Harmon now),  but elementary started after high school season and ended with Freestyle and Greco......then we said "lets add a month", then we said "if adding one month is good lets add 2" ......3...... now some places start in September and end in May......or even end at Folkstyle state cause "kids are burnt out" before Free and Greco start.  I don't think kids dislike freestyle and greco, they are just tired by the time it starts and say no.  As a head coach I used to be excited about Free/Greco starting to see all the little guys STARTING, now I am trying to figure out what bounce house or pizza party we are going to have so that they wanna come to freestyle practice.  Even some coaches have tricked themselves into saying they don't like free or greco, or they say "ill never have an Olympian so why try", by that logic most coaches never have a state champ, so we should cut folkstyle practices out too.  For me, by the time Free/Greco roll around I can't bear the thought of demo-ing another folkstyle move and LOVE showing "new stuff".  Love showing clips of international matches - this not only sparks their wrestling knowledge but even their "worldly views."  And anyone who says greco is useless must never have used handfighting or pummeling as a folkstyle drill.

I truly believe with the youngers - LESS IS MORE.  Its a funnel.  Get out 200 elementary wrestlers (kids that call themselves wrestlers if even for a week clinic), 40-80 middle school, 50 high school - to have 10 seniors if your lucky.  Good for those that can have 20 elementary guys on a duals team, and keep 10 seniors out.  I don't know how they do it!  But i'd love to learn.  

 

last two items

What else can I rant on?  Maybe the fact that Me and Y2 have agreed like 3x this week, that is more than the last 3 years.  I feel I am on quite a roll!!!!!!

 

yes, i went from elementary duals to talking Greco...........its my natural transition to most topics.  I could do it if we started talking about what we eat for breakfast, I'd end with a greco talk.

 

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8 hours ago, Wrestlingaddict101 said:

It's still a great idea to put a team together! Kids still get more mat time and its normally a very well ran tournament/dual. Kids cheering teammates on, normally 5 matches a day, not as chaotic. I love the duals its just one of those unfortunate things you can't avoid that people lie about stuff... or they recruit kids to "join" their club that they know won't be attending their schools. 

I do agree there...........your the kinda guy doing it RIGHT!!!

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15 hours ago, jetwrestling said:

First off, I didn't realize there were some of these issues. I honestly don't follow who all the other teams roster.  My initial gut feeling is that if we go away from the school affiliation/ limited wild cards, then we are just opening it up like all the other summer duals that out there. It would be the travel teams/ training academies dominating. We have entered a team for the last 5 years or so. The first couple was in a one class set up. I know we did not have the depth to compete with the larger school clubs, but we did it anyway. I viewed it as a way to get my kids exposed to the top/ state level kids out there. It was a way for us to take 15-20 of my kids (that wouldn't be going to a state level event otherwise) along with 2-3 wildcards to a high level event. The ultimate goal was to get more of our kids competing at the individual state events and each year we have a few more kids going to those.

It is unfortunate if teams are crossing lines to get the win. I figure they have to live with that, not me. We take our team there to compete and will continue to do so. We also do local duals knowing that some teams are basically all stars. I do not get hung up on the wins and losses at this level. I just want my kids progressing. 

I know that may not really have answered your question, but that is how I view the duals. 

Full disclosure is that I do use wildcards (per the rules). I have never turned away one of my kids that wanted to go for a wildcard. I always take my kids first then fill in the roster with wildcards. 

Tony

I appreciate the input Tony!  We use wild cards as well but not in place of a Rochester kid.  Now, when we do go to local stuff like Columbia City, we use kids from other schools to fill in those weights when our kids can't attend or aren't ready to attend.  I have put a few rules in place that have helped us when approached by kids from other clubs.

1. If you want to wrestle on our duals team full time and compete with us as a wild card at team state, then you have to join our club.

2. You have to practice, on a very regular basis, with us and be a part of our team for the season...including the individual season.

3. You have to wrestle off just like any other kid in our club and go by our rules.  Passing grades, regular attendance, work hard, and be a positive addition to our program.

These duals have really helped our club progress and the kids are doing well.  Our kids really like the dual atmosphere and the coaches do too.  I'd like to do more weeknight stuff instead of hammering away all day on Sunday.  I agree with @dstruckI think we are moving backwards in that regard.  I want to continue but I also just want a level playing field at state.  If we are going to put rules in place for wild cards, then teams MUST go by the rules and they need to be checked.  I'm an open book, so anyone can check our entries anytime they want.

It's a never ending battle to find the right balance. @dstruck I agree with you on freestyle and greco.  Our kids love the change!

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The number of children playing team sports is falling, with experts blaming a parent-driven focus on elite travel clubs, specialization in one sport and pursuit of scholarships for hurting the country’s youth sports leagues.

“The system is now designed to meet the needs of the most talented kids,” said Mark Hyman, a professor of sports management at George Washington University and the author of several books on youth sports. “We no longer value participation. We value excellence.”

“The adults have won,” Hyman said. “If we wiped the slate clean and reinvented youth sports from scratch by putting the physical and emotional needs of kids first, how different would it look? Nothing would be recognizable.”

Amanda Visek, an exercise science professor at George Washington University, recently surveyed nearly 150 children about what they found fun about sports. (Her sample included kids who play travel and recreational sports.) The kids identified 81 factors contributing to their happiness.

Number 48: winning.

Also low on the list: playing in tournaments, cool uniforms and expensive equipment. High on the list: positive team dynamics, trying hard, positive coaching and learning. Whenever Visek presents her findings to win-hungry parents and coaches, there is a lot of pushback.

“They don’t want to believe it,” she said.

Yet the No. 1 reason why kids quit sports is that it’s no longer fun.

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It's a struggle to find that balance. When I coached HS I was blown away by the Kiddie Circuit, now here I am completely wrapped up in it. 

It's keeping up w/ the Jones's, you don't want to burn kids out, but you also don't want to take kids to tournaments and get blown away by 8 year olds that train wrestling 14 months a year.

My 8 year old currently does Football (Aug-Oct), Travel Baseball (all year), Wrestling (Nov - whenever) and b/c he had one night open a week now we've added gymnastics. My head spins. I've laid off on wrestling this year compared to prior years out of fear of burnout. 

I stress to my parents that I'm not here to develop Bantam state champs, but I'm here to help get your kid to Bankers Life when they are in high school. I constantly preach that it's a marathon not a race and to trust the process. I take kids to national level tournaments w/ The Outlaws and they get smoked but they have a great time traveling, hanging out w/ each other, and seeing new places. But I still see frustration in faces of parents. I know the answer but the answer leads to burn out in most kids. 

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12 hours ago, V and M's Dad said:

 

Poste

  410

JMILL
   On 1/1/2018 at 9:59 PM, lewdwar said: 

Every year I bring this up. Let’s see what schools need to bring in extra kids to win. 

every year you bring it up and every year the teams all comply with the guidelines set forth by the ISWA......even Perry so thanks.  good luck to all teams

 

 

I don’t understand what everyone is talking about “all teams comply with the guidelines set forth by the ISWA” per Miller 

this is another example of the proper use for a "dislike" button........just sayin

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1 hour ago, JMILL said:

this is another example of the proper use for a "dislike" button........just sayin

 

   It was not meant as a shot at you. I understand you are putting in a ton of time and it goes unappreciated! I thought it was funny is all! This thread got hijacked by a topic we continue to bring up year after year. There had to be four or five teams complaining at the Elememtary Duals to you about certain teams and their makeup before weigh ins. You are in the bad position of being the Guy who fields the complaint is all. "Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown"  Thanks for the amount of time you and all the ISWA people put in. Things would be a great deal worse without it!   

 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, V and M's Dad said:

 

   It was not meant as a shot at you. I understand you are putting in a ton of time and it goes unappreciated! I thought it was funny is all! This thread got hijacked by a topic we continue to bring up year after year. There had to be four or five teams complaining at the Elememtary Duals to you about certain teams and their makeup before weigh ins. You are in the bad position of being the Guy who fields the complaint is all. "Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown"  Thanks for the amount of time you and all the ISWA people put in. Things would be a great deal worse without it!   

 

@V and M's Dad Thank you and my comment was mostly in a LOL manner, I actually like it when people complain to me because I enjoy the debates and the discussions.  I like to try to fix things that are broken, I like to try to see things from other's point of views and on an occasion I like to try to point out when people are just plain wrong and complaining to complain, and I try to do this last one with a big old stupid smile on my face for extra dramatic affect. 

This is not you in this instance because what your complaint was has some basis to it.  The issue comes in trying to prove it to a point of being able to take action.  It is very sad, but it is the world we all live in.  No matter what the competition is people are going to try to cut corners and some do it better than others and sometimes they cover their tracks to the point that we can suspect, think, and just down right be sure but are not able to prove it.  This is the sucky part because they get to carry on and we feel cheated.  Just know that they look like idiots and everyone knows that about them and for that the rest of us are actually winning in that sense.

Thanks for the kind words and we will continue to try to close the loopholes that certain people have attempted to exploit. 

Edited by JMILL

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27 minutes ago, JMILL said:

@V and M's Dad Thank you and my comment was mostly in a LOL manner, I actually like it when people complain to me because I enjoy the debates and the discussions.  I like to try to fix things that are broken, I like to try to see things from other's point of views and on an occasion I like to try to point out when people are just plain wrong and complaining to complain, and I try to do this last one with a big old stupid smile on my face for extra dramatic affect. 

This is not you in this instance because what your complaint was has some basis to it.  The issue comes in trying to prove it to a point of being able to take action.  It is very sad, but it is the world we all live in.  No matter what the competition is people are going to try to cut corners and some do it better than others and sometimes they cover their tracks to the point that we can suspect, think, and just down right be sure but are not able to prove it.  This is the sucky part because they get to carry on and we feel cheated.  Just know that they look like idiots and everyone knows that about them and for that the rest of us are actually winning in that sense.

Thanks for the kind words and we will continue to try to close the loopholes that certain people have attempted to exploit. 

@JMILL you never try to fix my problems, you just call me a complainer and tell me to take a hike!

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Clint Gard I agree 100 percent on your reply about officiating like this at the state tournament. I understand we’re in need of officials and as a licensed referee I understand mistakes are made but what we saw last weekend was let’s just sat bad at best. For example we had a match against Jordan Slivka and let me say Jordan is a friend, a great family and deserved the win. Jordan beat us 2-1 in o.t. and deserved it. I’m just pointing out we did a go behind....knees and hand on the mat and under the arms and ref said know takedown. What upset me is when I went to the table....(no swearing, no yelling just talking he threatened me out of the tournament and it wasn’t debatable. Plamen Paskalev a two time Olympian and medalist was in the corner and said that’s just embarrassing. He sent the video to coach Tom Ryan at Ohio state and div 1,2 and 3 refs and they all said everytime it’s two. It’s not the fact the referee didn’t call it cause it was a quick thing it’s the fact the refs don’t care. I talked to refs there and was told after they saw the film it’s simply a judgement call and every ref is different. Than why have rulebooks. If your a ref I respect what you do.....but if you don’t know what your doing stay out of the state tournament. Learn what, how when and where things are to be done. Graham got some calls for him as well that should not have been in matches. It’s just hard to coach when you have young refs that has no clue on the rules. 

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I received a coaches misconduct for approaching the score table to tell a referee that the match score was wrong. Referee insisted that the score was correct and gave me a coaches misconduct. After further review, the match score was in fact wrong and was changed to the correct score. I still received the coaches misconduct. The referee went on the say that I received the misconduct because I disrespected him by walking away from the scores table after he assured me that the original score was correct.

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On 3/12/2018 at 3:25 PM, AJ said:

Paying for wild cards?? Using illegal kids???   Is that where our youth wrestling program currently resides??  

Sounds like the old days of Industrial league Softball.

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