Seeding Shenanigans

[Athenr]

Could you seed both wrestlers respectively? Have alternate brackets ready to go depending on who wrestles. Limit the team to one or two alternates per team to limit the chaos of bracket seeding already

[The Professor Morgan]

New one I saw this year was a team flipped 6 wrestlers so no common opponents.  I'd seen it done with just one pair but not half the team.

[Spladle Nation]

I don’t understand the philosophy either.  I would be more in favor of entering your lineup, with no changes allowed.  I mean if you miss weight you can’t bump up so why is this allowed??

[Spladle Nation]

Another side note - ducking kids in the regular season.  If you have a dual and decide to not wrestle a kid or move around for the purpose of team dual strategy then you use that strategy to try and get a higher seed then the kid you dodged

[MattM]

7 hours ago, Chris Cooper said:

Matt, I don’t completely understand your position here, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth.  By what you said above it seems like the issue is with the way a bracket is seeded if a replacement wrestler can beat the 2 and 3 seeds.

Well let's see a coach happen to place a backup wrestler in for seeding who happened to only compete in part of the varsity season against lesser opponents and ends up with a decent record.  That wrestler then gets seeding anyplace in the bracket, but for your strategy at least he was seeded and that's all you need since that "strategic replacement" will be moved to the 6-seed anyway.  The actual seeds likely ended up correct at the seed meeting according to the IHSAA criteria and the wrestler submitted by the coaches.  But then those seeds get shifted later Saturday morning when that coach pulls their original seeded guy for the actual "strategic replacement" knowing he will move by rule to the opposite side of the bracket from the #1.  

 

Saturday morning that coach removes that original wrestler and replaces them with their "strategic replacement" who was their varsity most of the season.  That "replacement" possibly had a record that would have ended them up in the 4th or 5th seed at the seed meeting which the coach was worried of because them into the #1 in the semi-finals who they believe the wrestler will have a hard time beating.  According to the rules the replacement moved to the 6th-seed and ensure they are away from the #1 rather than chance that occurring at the seed meeting.  This puts the "strategic replacement" on the side of the bracket with the #2 and #3 seed.  The coach feels their good “strategic replacement” wrestlers can beat the #3 in the quarters and likely can at least have a good shot against the #2 they have in the Semi-Finals.  So the strategy often gets the team another finalist and the wrestlers a better spot for Regional too.  The coach sets this up when their most worried about the #1 but think they have a shot at the #2/#3 so it can help the individual placement, individual chance in regionals, and their team score, and this replacement strategy helps to improve those odds.   

 

Again, per the rules, the coach can replace someone in that way.  But these are "strategic replacement" not a surprise one due to something occuring in practice during the later few days before Sectional.  Sure the coach may not be concerned about how thid affect anyone else or another team, but in the larger picture it shifts the bracket often causing two of the expected regional-level guys to face each other in the blood round with one now not getting out. 

 

Sadly  can't fix the fairness and honesty of all coaches when seeding at the meeting and no rule can fix that.  But there is a set criteria in place which is about as objective as you can get. We can however look to improve upon a loophole in the rules that allow for a strategic manipulation in the brackets after the fact that leads to an advantage for the manipulator at the expense of other regional a ability wrestlers.  Simple fixes to that would be to say "no replacement," "replacement is drawn-in," or the "replacement goes to the 5th seeded spot."  Even the last two seem too much of a risk to play the "strategic replacement" game with cause you may still end up on the #1 seed side in the end.  And I think the coaches association could at least make the argument to the IHSAA about some of these options as a more even and fair approach without making a big deal to the IHSAA of this being due to certain coaches manipulating the system.  

 

But, I feel like you already would understand most of this as it has occurred multiple times in our sectional over the last several years.  Something tells me again it may happen once or twice this Saturday too.  Although we may find that the extra added depth this year may make that strategy a little more of a gamble than years past.  

Edited January 27 by MattM

[Gabe Cook]

From the 2023-24 Winter Bulletin:

X Pairings and Seeding

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. 
Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage. 

[TeamGarcia]

14 minutes ago, Gabe Cook said:

From the 2023-24 Winter Bulletin:

X Pairings and Seeding

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. 
Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage. 

There you have it Folks … The shenanigans is over . Topic is Dead ! Good day everyone, have a nice day tomorrow when they wrestle for real . 

[MattM]

28 minutes ago, Gabe Cook said:

From the 2023-24 Winter Bulletin:

X Pairings and Seeding

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. 
Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage. 

Sounds good in theory but when coaches are looking out for their own wrestlers it not always going to play out in the fairest of ways.  I get why they do this, but it doesn't help create the best bracket when it occurs.  Looking at the overall process a rule like this one isn't getting accomplished in seeding or sometimes after the brackets have been built.

[maligned]

1 hour ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

Don't complain too loudly! The IHSAA will just make them all random draws like everything else!

This is 100% true.

 

IHSWCA, please keep reiterating to Faulkens that the sectional seeding criteria are perfect in every way. And, @Y2CJ41, please encrypt this thread so that only those with current or past ability to execute a power half can view it.

Edited January 26 by maligned

[Y2CJ41]

31 minutes ago, maligned said:

This is 100% true.

 

IHSWCA, please keep reiterating to Faulkens that the sectional seeding criteria are perfect in every way. And, @Y2CJ41, please encrypt this thread so that only those with current or past ability to execute a power half can view it.

The only thing that is 100% true is if coaches continue to manipulate the system the IHSAA will continue to make it difficult to get changes made. The simple fact is wrestling coaches act like idiots and force the IHSAA to use manpower and time to address petty issues instead of doing real work. See the recent cowboy hat issue that happened at Girls State as a perfect example.

 

We are the ONLY ones with any seeding and now it appears coaches want to pull shenanigans with it.

 

It's too bad our coaches want to continue to push the envelope to see how much they can get away with.

[decbell1]

I think there are a lot of shenanigans in a lot of other sports across the state, we just have the platform and a passionate fan base that makes ours get more attention than what happens in other sports. 

[casualwrestlingfan]

27 minutes ago, decbell1 said:

I think there are a lot of shenanigans in a lot of other sports across the state, we just have the platform and a passionate fan base that makes ours get more attention than what happens in other sports. 

True, but GID gets a lot of seeding & neutral site playoff game discussion as well. Especially when Ohio seeds their football tournament. Indiana is better by having all in football playoffs & single class wrestling individual championships. Still support classed individual tournament between team state duals & singke class individual tournament. Both need wrestle backs at every step of the tournament. 

[Coplen187]

6 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Heard a coach had a girl that is 10-0 and picked 10 matches that she would win in order to get a high seed. She had 7 losses against girls that I guess didn't count, so she enters as a 2 seed.

 

Also heard a coach claimed they had a win over a top wrestler, but was called on it and it was a "mistake."

She got pinned in 52 seconds by Lilly Gerald from Rochester during the regular season. 

 

I recognized the name when I was going through brackets and I was kind of confused to see her with a 10-0 record.  I guess I thought those losses counted.  They should IMO, with the goal being the best 2 in the finals, not record parity. 

Edited January 26 by Coplen187

[Y2CJ41]

3 minutes ago, Coplen187 said:

She got pinned in 52 seconds by Lilly Gerald from Rochester during the regular season. 

 

I recognized the name when I was going through brackets and I was kind of confused to see her with a 10-0 record.  I guess I thought those losses counted.  They should IMO, with the goal being the best 2 in the finals, not record parity. 

I think some coaches count the girls records as I would assume they should.

[Cameron10483]

11 minutes ago, Coplen187 said:

She got pinned in 52 seconds by Lilly Gerald from Rochester during the regular season. 

 

I recognized the name when I was going through brackets and I was kind of confused to see her with a 10-0 record.  I guess I thought those losses counted.  They should IMO, with the goal being the best 2 in the finals, not record parity. 

Was this in boys duals or girls duals? Records only count in what they did in boy duals and boy invites. If 2 girls wrestle in a boys dual, that obviously counts.

[Coplen187]

16 minutes ago, Cameron10483 said:

Was this in boys duals or girls duals? Records only count in what they did in boy duals and boy invites. If 2 girls wrestle in a boys dual, that obviously counts.

 

Girls, but my statement is in the context of Gabe posting this:

 

From the 2023-24 Winter Bulletin:

X Pairings and Seeding

 

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. 
Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage. 

 

Seems to me this is the exact kind of situation this consideration was made for.

Edited January 26 by Coplen187

[Cameron10483]

17 minutes ago, Coplen187 said:

 

Girls, but my statement is in the context of Gabe posting this:

 

From the 2023-24 Winter Bulletin:

X Pairings and Seeding

 

5. Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. 
Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage. 

 

Seems to me this is the exact kind of situation this consideration was made for.

Unfortunately most coaches understand this and respect the sport. However, this coach simply cherry picked matches, only got to 10-0, forfeited every sectional and common opponent, sat out conference and wouldn't concede to the 4 seed. Criteria exists and unless it's unanimous to move a wrestler there's nothing you can do. It's sad, really.

[Jcjcjc]

5 hours ago, maligned said:

This is 100% true.

 

IHSWCA, please keep reiterating to Faulkens that the sectional seeding criteria are perfect in every way. And, @Y2CJ41, please encrypt this thread so that only those with current or past ability to execute a power half can view it.

Haha, noted.
There’s been some good discussion, and this is definitely an IHSAA issue that as a coaches association we can have input on but not authority over. 

[CFleshman]

She lost a match to CN  during a boys dual meet. Both were girls.

[TnTrent]

2 hours ago, Cameron10483 said:

Unfortunately most coaches understand this and respect the sport. However, this coach simply cherry picked matches, only got to 10-0, forfeited every sectional and common opponent, sat out conference and wouldn't concede to the 4 seed. Criteria exists and unless it's unanimous to move a wrestler there's nothing you can do. It's sad, really.

Coach did the same thing with another girl at the conference tournament. Ended up getting last place. Wish sectionals would be able to work its way out but someone will end up getting screwed over because of coach's personal vendetta!

[frigginhurts]

8 hours ago, MattM said:

Well let's see a coach happen to place a backup wrestler in for seeding who happened to only compete in part of the varsity season against lesser opponents and ends up with a decent record.  That wrestler then gets seeding anyplace in the bracket, but for your strategy at least he was seeded and that's all you need since that "strategic replacement" will be moved to the 6-seed anyway.  The actual seeds likely ended up correct at the seed meeting according to the IHSAA criteria and the wrestler submitted by the coaches.  But then those seeds get shifted later Saturday morning when that coach pulls their original seeded guy for the actual "strategic replacement" knowing he will move by rule to the opposite side of the bracket from the #1.  

 

Saturday morning that coach removes that original wrestler and replaces them with their "strategic replacement" who was their varsity most of the season.  That "replacement" possibly had a record that would have ended them up in the 4th or 5th seed at the seed meeting which the coach was worried of because them into the #1 in the semi-finals who they believe the wrestler will have a hard time beating.  According to the rules the replacement moved to the 6th-seed and ensure they are away from the #1 rather than chance that occurring at the seed meeting.  This puts the "strategic replacement" on the side of the bracket with the #2 and #3 seed.  The coach feels their good “strategic replacement” wrestlers can beat the #3 in the quarters and likely can at least have a good shot against the #2 they have in the Semi-Finals.  So the strategy often gets the team another finalist and the wrestlers a better spot for Regional too.  The coach sets this up when their most worried about the #1 but think they have a shot at the #2/#3 so it can help the individual placement, individual chance in regionals, and their team score, and this replacement strategy helps to improve those odds.   

 

Again, per the rules, the coach can replace someone in that way.  But these are "strategic replacement" not a surprise one due to something occuring in practice during the later few days before Sectional.  Sure the coach may not be concerned about how thid affect anyone else or another team, but in the larger picture it shifts the bracket often causing two of the expected regional-level guys to face each other in the blood round with one now not getting out. 

 

Sadly  can't fix the fairness and honesty of all coaches when seeding at the meeting and no rule can fix that.  But there is a set criteria in place which is about as objective as you can get. We can however look to improve upon a loophole in the rules that allow for a strategic manipulation in the brackets after the fact that leads to an advantage for the manipulator at the expense of other regional a ability wrestlers.  Simple fixes to that would be to say "no replacement," "replacement is drawn-in," or the "replacement goes to the 5th seeded spot."  Even the last two seem too much of a risk to play the "strategic replacement" game with cause you may still end up on the #1 seed side in the end.  And I think the coaches association could at least make the argument to the IHSAA about some of these options as a more even and fair approach without making a big deal to the IHSAA of this being due to certain coaches manipulating the system.  

 

But, I feel like you already would understand most of this as it has occurred multiple times in our sectional over the last several years.  Something tells me again it may happen once or twice this Saturday too.  Although we may find that the extra added depth this year may make that strategy a little more of a gamble than years past.  

Hypothetically I get what you are saying but are you telling me that everyone would rather have a six instead of a four or five?

[AJ]

Just happened in our sectional..a varsity kid who has been out almost all season due to injury was just placed in the bracket... he did not have 10 matches, so would not have been seeded, but now he gets to replace the 6th seed and be on the bottom side...

 

 

[frigginhurts]

8 hours ago, MattM said:

Sounds good in theory but when coaches are looking out for their own wrestlers it not always going to play out in the fairest of ways.  I get why they do this, but it doesn't help create the best bracket when it occurs.  Looking at the overall process a rule like this one isn't getting accomplished in seeding or sometimes after the brackets have been built.

Technically if the kid was the second best wrestler and dropped down to a number 6 instead of a four or five and got to meet the 1 in the finals, then it was the best bracket

[Y2CJ41]

7 minutes ago, frigginhurts said:

Hypothetically I get what you are saying but are you telling me that everyone would rather have a six instead of a four or five?

If you feel you have a better shot of beating the 2 and 3 instead of just the 1... yes.

[rookie78]

I once saw where a kid who had 0 actual wins (all wins were ff's) get seeded over a kid with 1 actual win.....like,  a legit win over a kid with a heart beat.