Team State draw

[casualwrestlingfan]

41 minutes ago, maligned said:

32 of the 40 berths are 100% decided by your kids winning in the upcoming state series and earning a bid. 4 more bids are voted on after state from among the first few "just missed" teams. Then the final 4 won't be chosen till next December from among those not yet qualified. There are very few big school obstacles stopping Snider from getting a FW auto berth. Win a handful more matches at SS this year and you'll have a very real shot. 

Wish the IHSAA would help and not count the event towards the competition points as I believe they still do(correct me if I'm wrong). I'd love for it to be like football & etc with sectionals/regional to earn a spot at state (top 8/12 teams per class) in an actual dual tournament instead of basing it on individual tournament results. Duals and individual tournaments are so different. Criteria for teams being those filling 8 weight classes. 

[maligned]

12 hours ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

Wish the IHSAA would help and not count the event towards the competition points as I believe they still do(correct me if I'm wrong). I'd love for it to be like football & etc with sectionals/regional to earn a spot at state (top 8/12 teams per class) in an actual dual tournament instead of basing it on individual tournament results. Duals and individual tournaments are so different. Criteria for teams being those filling 8 weight classes. 

This is a common misunderstanding about how the qualification process works. We compiled a decade of data to see how well the advancement of each individual to a given level (regional, semi-state first round, etc.) connects to their direct impact on their team's DUAL level in the next season. You're then awarded points that directly predict your DUAL quality in the next season. We're going on 12 seasons now of getting 95% of the next season's consensus top 5 duals teams in each class into the event. With the 12-team classes, we usually end up with only 1 or 2 of the year-end top 10 the following season not having been at Team State. Win matches in the state series and prove you're going to be a good duals team.

[casualwrestlingfan]

3 minutes ago, maligned said:

This is a common misunderstanding about how the qualification process works. We compiled a decade of data to see how well the advancement of each individual to a given level (regional, semi-state first round, etc.) connects to their direct impact on their team's DUAL level in the next season. You're then awarded points that directly predict your DUAL quality in the next season. We're going on 12 seasons now of getting 95% of the next season's consensus top 5 duals teams in each class into the event. With the 12-team classes, we usually end up with only 1 or 2 of the year-end top 10 the following season not having been at Team State. Win matches in the state series and prove you're going to be a good duals team.

Totally misses those kids that fill in during bumps that fight off the pins or pull an upset. Not the true essence of the dual aspect that you would have wrestling in an actual dual meet. Plus those schools like CP or MD that the backups are probably state qualifiers to champs behind other state qualifiers or champs at their weight. Yeah it's better than nothing by going off individual results. Just rather see team state dual qualifiers come from winning prior rounds of duals in a tournament format like football, basketball, baseball, and etc.

[maligned]

1 hour ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

Totally misses those kids that fill in during bumps that fight off the pins or pull an upset. Not the true essence of the dual aspect that you would have wrestling in an actual dual meet. Plus those schools like CP or MD that the backups are probably state qualifiers to champs behind other state qualifiers or champs at their weight. Yeah it's better than nothing by going off individual results. Just rather see team state dual qualifiers come from winning prior rounds of duals in a tournament format like football, basketball, baseball, and etc.

Definitely in agreement on that last point.

 

I just dispute the idea that teams are chosen based on individual tournaments, which use completely different scoring.

 

Even the concern about "program" points not getting earned isn't true. This is exactly why we give points to seniors. They don't earn as many points as underclassmen, but we've investigated exactly how well a good team from each of the 4 school sizes will replace a lost guy of each advancement level and give points accordingly.

Edited January 9, 2023 by maligned

[Y2CJ41]

3 hours ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

Totally misses those kids that fill in during bumps that fight off the pins or pull an upset. Not the true essence of the dual aspect that you would have wrestling in an actual dual meet. Plus those schools like CP or MD that the backups are probably state qualifiers to champs behind other state qualifiers or champs at their weight. Yeah it's better than nothing by going off individual results. Just rather see team state dual qualifiers come from winning prior rounds of duals in a tournament format like football, basketball, baseball, and etc.

#1 in no way should teams get a free waiver in schedule points for this event so long as it is not IHSAA sponsored. That would be a direct disadvantage to the other 270 teams that are not chosen for the event.

 

#2 Anything that requires more than a 2 schedule points will result in many teams not being able to drop the event. For instance at Garrett their 6 tournaments on their schedule are NECC Duals, NECC Tournament, home invitational, Carroll Super Dual(conference matches wrestled there), Al Smith, and Team State. Right now they are barely able to fit team state into the schedule, anything more would likely result in them needing to drop one of the other five events which would be very difficult to do. Many teams throughout the state are in the same position.

 

#3 on top of all of that running more than one weekend would create a logistics nightmare for schools that are participating and hosting. Pulling this thing off already is a task that most have no clue what goes on behind the scenes.

[casualwrestlingfan]

11 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

#1 in no way should teams get a free waiver in schedule points for this event so long as it is not IHSAA sponsored. That would be a direct disadvantage to the other 270 teams that are not chosen for the event.

 

#2 Anything that requires more than a 2 schedule points will result in many teams not being able to drop the event. For instance at Garrett their 6 tournaments on their schedule are NECC Duals, NECC Tournament, home invitational, Carroll Super Dual(conference matches wrestled there), Al Smith, and Team State. Right now they are barely able to fit team state into the schedule, anything more would likely result in them needing to drop one of the other five events which would be very difficult to do. Many teams throughout the state are in the same position.

 

#3 on top of all of that running more than one weekend would create a logistics nightmare for schools that are participating and hosting. Pulling this thing off already is a task that most have no clue what goes on behind the scenes.

See #1. Should be IHSAA sponsored and ran like other IHSAA tournaments. My mistake for not clarifying that aspect. They should let the IHSWCA run the logistics. I'm in the minority, but the season could go into March.

[XCard]

On 1/8/2023 at 7:52 PM, casualwrestlingfan said:

Wish the IHSAA would help and not count the event towards the competition points as I believe they still do(correct me if I'm wrong). I'd love for it to be like football & etc with sectionals/regional to earn a spot at state (top 8/12 teams per class) in an actual dual tournament instead of basing it on individual tournament results. Duals and individual tournaments are so different. Criteria for teams being those filling 8 weight classes. 

Hmmm I like this set up, but I wonder though if teams that had no chance of winning would actually send their best team? Could be a potential problem with this set up not risking injury for individual portion of tournament.

[Chris Cooper]

20 hours ago, maligned said:

This is a common misunderstanding about how the qualification process works. We compiled a decade of data to see how well the advancement of each individual to a given level (regional, semi-state first round, etc.) connects to their direct impact on their team's DUAL level in the next season. You're then awarded points that directly predict your DUAL quality in the next season. We're going on 12 seasons now of getting 95% of the next season's consensus top 5 duals teams in each class into the event. With the 12-team classes, we usually end up with only 1 or 2 of the year-end top 10 the following season not having been at Team State. Win matches in the state series and prove you're going to be a good duals team.

A few thoughts…
 

A statistician has never proven him/herself wrong.

 

If the Ft Wayne SS teams had not dropped each of the last 2 years, 3a would have looked a lot different.  Also remember, runner up Floyd Central 2 years ago was a late entry due to our being forced out.

 

Having a good dual team and having a good group of individual wrestlers are very different thing.  
 

Our points system was a great way to get started and get this event rolling and established.  It is now outdated and needs to become obsolete.

 

Ive floated this idea to several 3a coaches, I believe it would work and be a vast improvement over using the prior years team to predict the future teams success.

 

Teams that believe they are good enough to be selected in the top 8(say 15-20 teams), Should just schedule the event and be prepared to wrestle.  The committee selects all 8 teams mid December based on current year results.  The second group of teams would still compete on that Saturday, just at a different location.  To make this work, we need a few teams who would be willing to host the alternate site.  Columbus East would definitely host if not selected.  The alternate site could be flexible with format, 6-10 teams, whatever is needed.

 

Solves the issue of schedule disruption, choosing teams 10 months ahead of time based on kids who aren’t even on the team, and allows current year results to select the deserving teams.

[Y2CJ41]

7 hours ago, XCard said:

Hmmm I like this set up, but I wonder though if teams that had no chance of winning would actually send their best team? Could be a potential problem with this set up not risking injury for individual portion of tournament.

Ohio was interesting in that in January(maybe sooner) the state would send out an inquiry to teams asking if they wanted to participate in the state dual series. I believe teams had to have at least X number of wrestlers to participate on top of that. This does open up a can of worms in that maybe a solid team drops because they have a REALLY good team in their sectional/regional and would rather use the time to rest and practice.

 

Of course the OHSAA just axed their team dual series after a very short run. So maybe it isn't a good thing.

[casualwrestlingfan]

36 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Ohio was interesting in that in January(maybe sooner) the state would send out an inquiry to teams asking if they wanted to participate in the state dual series. I believe teams had to have at least X number of wrestlers to participate on top of that. This does open up a can of worms in that maybe a solid team drops because they have a REALLY good team in their sectional/regional and would rather use the time to rest and practice.

 

Of course the OHSAA just axed their team dual series after a very short run. So maybe it isn't a good thing.

They dropped it on the OHSWCA as well as you know. Guessing their venue issues was a big reason why with not having St John's to use.

[Jcjcjc]

4 hours ago, Chris Cooper said:

A few thoughts…
 

A statistician has never proven him/herself wrong.

 

If the Ft Wayne SS teams had not dropped each of the last 2 years, 3a would have looked a lot different.  Also remember, runner up Floyd Central 2 years ago was a late entry due to our being forced out.

 

Having a good dual team and having a good group of individual wrestlers are very different thing.  
 

Our points system was a great way to get started and get this event rolling and established.  It is now outdated and needs to become obsolete.

 

Ive floated this idea to several 3a coaches, I believe it would work and be a vast improvement over using the prior years team to predict the future teams success.

 

Teams that believe they are good enough to be selected in the top 8(say 15-20 teams), Should just schedule the event and be prepared to wrestle.  The committee selects all 8 teams mid December based on current year results.  The second group of teams would still compete on that Saturday, just at a different location.  To make this work, we need a few teams who would be willing to host the alternate site.  Columbus East would definitely host if not selected.  The alternate site could be flexible with format, 6-10 teams, whatever is needed.

 

Solves the issue of schedule disruption, choosing teams 10 months ahead of time based on kids who aren’t even on the team, and allows current year results to select the deserving teams.

 

 

Paraphrasing you to get my mind around it....

 

Have teams apply to be on the "watch list."

Make a list of teams to be considered.

Select 3 teams near the bottom of the watch list to host an alternative event to team state. 

Select teams in Team State. 

Designate one of the teams not selected to host alternative tournament. 

 

Hobart has the Lake County tournament on the same weekend of Team State which acts as our fall back plan, since it is an individual tournament that runs fine with or without us. I love dual tournaments, so it would be great to have a dual tournament to fall back on if you didn't make it into team state, but it would I think it would be important to have an even number to avoid byes. If there were 16 watch teams for 3A and 4A, you could have an 8 team tournament ran the same way as team state, or you could round robin pools of 4 and cross bracket for a fifth dual. 

[Y2CJ41]

31 minutes ago, Jcjcjc said:

 

 

Paraphrasing you to get my mind around it....

 

Have teams apply to be on the "watch list."

Make a list of teams to be considered.

Select 3 teams near the bottom of the watch list to host an alternative event to team state. 

Select teams in Team State. 

Designate one of the teams not selected to host alternative tournament. 

 

Hobart has the Lake County tournament on the same weekend of Team State which acts as our fall back plan, since it is an individual tournament that runs fine with or without us. I love dual tournaments, so it would be great to have a dual tournament to fall back on if you didn't make it into team state, but it would I think it would be important to have an even number to avoid byes. If there were 16 watch teams for 3A and 4A, you could have an 8 team tournament ran the same way as team state, or you could round robin pools of 4 and cross bracket for a fifth dual. 

I know the idea of having both vote-in spots decided in December is being floated around and I like that. We do need some sort of system for schools to "apply" for being considered which would simply mean they are in the mix and are prepared to shift their schedule as needed.

 

I think the formula works well for what it is meant to do. It is far from perfect, but a great way to select most of the teams. It does seem like 3A is the most volatile in the recent years of "big misses" in the selection. The other classes have not had as many big time misses as it seems 3A has recently. Maybe there needs to be a tweak in the formula for them. Of the two last minute ones, Columbus East had a bunch of seniors last year which hurt their scores for the early selection and voting. The other big one was Floyd Central who had some pretty solid freshmen coming in that are difficult to account for.

 

No matter what, this is a great event and Greg "the wizard" and crew are always working to tweak it to make it even better. Thanks to all those that helped put on another great event.

[Eagle15]

Great to see a number of different ideas and viewpoints on the topic. Exactly, the idea of having an open forum. Kudos to everyone who works to put this event together, cover the event, even those doing the rankings. Many teams and coaches want the opportunity to compete and show their worth. It is certainly unfortunate that some teams are left out. However; at some point much like the CFB national championships, everyone can argue 3rd vs 5th, a team someone beat got second, fourth, etc... But ultimately, I think most would agree the idea is to have a tournament to decide a State Champion in each class. We saw that....we have champions in each class, I highly doubt any team or coach could claim they could of wrestled three to four duals and ultimately un seated any of those four class champions. Those champions are deserving and the rest had their chance. This is such a quality day of wrestling, no one should have complaints. The programs who had the chance to compete should be proud and know everyone will compare their programs to each qualifier as well as the champions.

Congrats to the champions and each team victory as all victories have some value for each program. Good luck the remainder of the season to all... and some are already developing motivation for next season's tournament.

[CoachM]

20 hours ago, Eagle15 said:

Great to see a number of different ideas and viewpoints on the topic. Exactly, the idea of having an open forum. Kudos to everyone who works to put this event together, cover the event, even those doing the rankings. Many teams and coaches want the opportunity to compete and show their worth. It is certainly unfortunate that some teams are left out. However; at some point much like the CFB national championships, everyone can argue 3rd vs 5th, a team someone beat got second, fourth, etc... But ultimately, I think most would agree the idea is to have a tournament to decide a State Champion in each class. We saw that....we have champions in each class, I highly doubt any team or coach could claim they could of wrestled three to four duals and ultimately un seated any of those four class champions. Those champions are deserving and the rest had their chance. This is such a quality day of wrestling, no one should have complaints. The programs who had the chance to compete should be proud and know everyone will compare their programs to each qualifier as well as the champions.

Congrats to the champions and each team victory as all victories have some value for each program. Good luck the remainder of the season to all... and some are already developing motivation for next season's tournament.

I would say the majority of people in Indiana dislike the idea of just crowning a champion.

Wrestlebacks anyone? 

[Eagle15]

2 hours ago, CoachM said:

I would say the majority of people in Indiana dislike the idea of just crowning a champion.

Wrestlebacks anyone? 

We are talking about "team state" correct?  Majority? What? No team was just crowned, they went 3-0 against best teams in the state. Beating another 2-0 or 3-0 team. All teams earned their championship. Maybe... a majority of teams think they can "match-up" well with certain teams, but I highly doubt any team felt Monday that they were better than Crown Point, Mishawaka, Western or Tell City. What would be your plan next best two out of three, round robin, then placement pool. This works... no need to over evaluate.

The "majority" you speak of is a. quiet and b. grasping at straws.

 

[BrodyHardcastle]

Oak Hill over 4th place Norwell tonight 31-30 while giving two FF’s because of injury. Safe to say they got shafted from the final vote in spot at team state. Norwell beat the vote in team Owen Valley by 20 in the first round.

[BrodyHardcastle]

But hey maybe if OH gets a featured article about them the week of the voting next year they might get voted in;)

Edited January 12, 2023 by bigballerb

[Lawdiggity]

10 hours ago, Eagle15 said:

We are talking about "team state" correct?  Majority? What? No team was just crowned, they went 3-0 against best teams in the state. Beating another 2-0 or 3-0 team. All teams earned their championship. Maybe... a majority of teams think they can "match-up" well with certain teams, but I highly doubt any team felt Monday that they were better than Crown Point, Mishawaka, Western or Tell City. What would be your plan next best two out of three, round robin, then placement pool. This works... no need to over evaluate.

The "majority" you speak of is a. quiet and b. grasping at straws.

 

With all due respect, you may be misinterpreting the original post. Don’t want to speak for that poster but I imagine they meant to say “crowned just” instead of “just crowned”. In other words, they were saying instead of only crowning a champion there should be wrestle backs to determine other placements (places other than 1st) to smooth out possible seedings that are off. I don’t think the poster meant someone just gets crowned without a heck of a lot of work. That’s how I interpreted the wrestle back comment. I could be wrong though - just ask my wife, I often am. And for the record I’m not saying I agree there should be wrestlebacks. Just saying I don’t think anyone in their right mind would argue any of the champion teams were just given a crown. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Lawdiggity

[decbell1]

14 hours ago, bigballerb said:

Oak Hill over 4th place Norwell tonight 31-30 while giving two FF’s because of injury. Safe to say they got shafted from the final vote in spot at team state. Norwell beat the vote in team Owen Valley by 20 in the first round.

Coming from someone (myself) who actually voted for Oak Hill as the last team in, it is awfully hard to justify Oak Hill when their program refuses to post results. It was almost like Oak Hill didn't want in. 

[BrodyHardcastle]

7 hours ago, decbell1 said:

Coming from someone (myself) who actually voted for Oak Hill as the last team in, it is awfully hard to justify Oak Hill when their program refuses to post results. It was almost like Oak Hill didn't want in. 

Lol okay Dane, the dual meet results are still posted. The Committee messed up in May when Wawasee got in over them. I posted this " Oak Hill comes from a sectional and regional level 4 while Wawasee comes from a level 3. Wawasee does return two more starters with 12 while OH returns 10, but if you run the matches from last year at Team State with no seniors involved Oak Hill wins 39-10. We return zero starters with losing records while Wawasee returns 5. We have an average returning regular season record of 25-6 while Wawasee's is 15-9. Make it make sense....." No one from the committee wanted to give an explanation or some type of reason on why they got in over us and everything was kept hush hush until I finally got a response in a  dm that still did not really answer why Wawasee was given the spot over OH. So if not posting individual results is what actually what kept OH out then so be it  I guess. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by bigballerb

[BrodyHardcastle]

1 hour ago, decbell1 said:

Coming from someone (myself) who actually voted for Oak Hill as the last team in, it is awfully hard to justify Oak Hill when their program refuses to post results. It was almost like Oak Hill didn't want in. 

 You say you voted for them but also say it's hard to justify voting for them, so my question is why did you vote for them then? Honestly, the vote is appreciated though.

Edited January 12, 2023 by bigballerb

[Thor]

[maligned]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:19 AM, Chris Cooper said:

A few thoughts…
 

A statistician has never proven him/herself wrong.

Ha...very funny.

 

Here's something wrong:

Times the qualification process has gotten every deserving team correct: 0%

 

By contrast:

Times an all-in event gives everyone a shot: 100% of the time.

 

I'm fully with you for the idea of having a watchlist of teams that can be filtered toward regionalized super duals if they don't get into Team State.  

 

I think if zero teams are pre-chosen, it really could end up being more like 25+ teams in some classes some years that want to be considered. That means there would need to be regionalized super dual hosts pre-committed and organized to host something like 50 teams that don't get into Team State. 

 

Isn't the challenge that you need hosts and backup hosts (for the "consolation" super duals) set up in case a given host site's team gets into Team State? And then how do you contract officials and plan an invitational site if it's a "maybe" site until mid-December? I think these have been the nature of the hangups when we all start to talk through these ideas every year. 

 

How could we get past those issues?

 

 

[GenHeavyHandz]

1 hour ago, maligned said:

Ha...very funny.

 

Here's something wrong:

Times the qualification process has gotten every deserving team correct: 0%

 

By contrast:

Times an all-in event gives everyone a shot: 100% of the time.

 

I'm fully with you for the idea of having a watchlist of teams that can be filtered toward regionalized super duals if they don't get into Team State.  

 

I think if zero teams are pre-chosen, it really could end up being more like 25+ teams in some classes some years that want to be considered. That means there would need to be regionalized super dual hosts pre-committed and organized to host something like 50 teams that don't get into Team State. 

 

Isn't the challenge that you need hosts and backup hosts (for the "consolation" super duals) set up in case a given host site's team gets into Team State? And then how do you contract officials and plan an invitational site if it's a "maybe" site until mid-December? I think these have been the nature of the hangups when we all start to talk through these ideas every year. 

 

How could we get past those issues?

 

 

On 1/10/2023 at 6:19 AM, Chris Cooper said:

A few thoughts…
 

A statistician has never proven him/herself wrong.

 

If the Ft Wayne SS teams had not dropped each of the last 2 years, 3a would have looked a lot different.  Also remember, runner up Floyd Central 2 years ago was a late entry due to our being forced out.

 

Having a good dual team and having a good group of individual wrestlers are very different thing.  
 

Our points system was a great way to get started and get this event rolling and established.  It is now outdated and needs to become obsolete.

 

Ive floated this idea to several 3a coaches, I believe it would work and be a vast improvement over using the prior years team to predict the future teams success.

 

Teams that believe they are good enough to be selected in the top 8(say 15-20 teams), Should just schedule the event and be prepared to wrestle.  The committee selects all 8 teams mid December based on current year results.  The second group of teams would still compete on that Saturday, just at a different location.  To make this work, we need a few teams who would be willing to host the alternate site.  Columbus East would definitely host if not selected.  The alternate site could be flexible with format, 6-10 teams, whatever is needed.

 

Solves the issue of schedule disruption, choosing teams 10 months ahead of time based on kids who aren’t even on the team, and allows current year results to select the deserving teams.

 

[maligned]

16 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

 

Nice gif, but I don't quite follow?  I was mocking myself and agreeing with him that we never get all the teams 100% right and that I wish we could do an all in event. I was trying to explain the biggest couple hangups because I think there are solutions out there that could get us those next steps forward. Sorry if it was a confusing message. I was trying to agree. Maybe you just like popcorn?

Edited January 13, 2023 by maligned