Team State Debate

[cewrestlingfan]

Darrick,

 

I agree that a classed  TEAM state tournament would be the best direction to improve our sport and most of the input we get on this forum would indicate that there is much agreement on that.  However, I believe that there are many coaches that are not heard from that have the feeling that their teams will not be competitive for the current Team format and have little interest to support it.  I hope I'm wrong, but that is the feeling I have.  There are others that support changing both the team portion and the individual portion to classes.  I do not support changing the individual portion to classes and if the only way we could change the team portion is to change the individual tournament, then I would not support that.  I think most of the wrestling community agree on this, but there are many that want to change the individual to classes also. We need to ALL agree on the best solution or we won't appear to be united.

 

My son is 18 and a senior this year, but I want what is best for the future of our sport.  The coaches here at Columbus East have done a very good job and worked long and hard on the younger kids to develop the program for the future.  So, I support you Coach Snyder and Coach Tonte but fear that there are too many that don't have the same passion for the team aspect.

[infowrestling]

I think that any small school would be in full support of keeping the current Team State system with the notion of everyone joining together in a movement to class the system as soon a possible.  I like "dullguy"'s proposal.  All you would need to do is add a few more Team Regional locations along with a separate Team State.  We really need to move forward with these ideas before they're irrelevant.

 

 

To any coach that is wavering on the idea of Team State not representing them, I have had the same feelings at times.  But, you have to remember, that a state championship won by tournament scoring in the individual tournament, in no way represents the best wrestling TEAM in the state.  I believe that it would also lead to the decline in wrestling participation.

[Jimtown 138]

So if you have two equal wrestlers, one has five semi-state qualifiers to work with every day, the other has five sectional qualifiers to work with.  Who will progress more throughout the season? 

 

You simply write off the four months that are spent in the wrestling room during the season five/six days a week like they are nothing.  The other eight months are two or three days a week at most.  You can get better all you want in the offseason, but if you don't have the practice partners during the season you will still have limited potential. 

 

Joe I would hope that you'd have 13 sectional qualifiers to work with...  ;D

[MattM]

We need to ALL agree on the best solution or we won't appear to be united.

 

Agree with that one.  Did we ever hear the results of the last coaches survey that was taken on what coaches through needed to be addressed the most?

[Timeinandout]

The comment that "team state is only for the top 16-20 teams" is ludicrous.  In that case, lets get rid of the individual tournament because it is only for the top 20 to 25 kids.  Why is it an accomplishment for a kid to be considered a "semi-state qualifier," but one coach said wrestling in the team regional would be a waste of time not an accomplishment.    Wrestling in the team regional should be an accomplishment and a goal for most teams.  Not many football coaches say they would rather do away with the state tournament just because Warren Central, Carmel, or Ben Davis is in their sectional.  They just want to win the next game so, hopefully, they can get a chance to play Warren, etc.  

 

The IHSAA is not going to take team state and give us anything.  We need to cntinue to push for a classes team state.  Unfortunately, I don't see a very good way of doing a classed team without classed individual.  I don't believe any states do have one classed and not the other.  

[Y2CJ41]

We cannot ruin our precious one class team state.  How will we know who the "true" champions are?  What about those years where Mater Dei would destroy the big school champion?  Also if we have a classed team state Mater Dei will win the small class every year.

[AJ]

 

 

Come one people, AJ-how can you not see this?  The team state has increased number of wrestlers competing when it means something.  It has increased numbers and excitement for teams who make it and those who dont.  It is, without a doubt, the number one reason PM wrestling is pretty successful.  How can anyone think that the Team State is a bad thing.  It puts strategy, team, coaching-all of it into play.  PM was second in the state in 92 with four place winners.  I know these guys and love those guys but their team would have been beat by 25 by the recent PM teams yet they were state runner ups.  

 

Dont you guys love team sports, kids high fiving each other.  Fans-are you kidding.  Do you really think your school bring more fans for the two kids at state than if you had a full team!!!

 

 

Darrick, bring the signs.  I will walk with you,

 

Coach Tonte

 

 

Coach Tonte, I do enjoy the Team Series and think it is very exciting.  My point I was trying to make is that I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that wrestling is now in trouble because the IHSAA  is taking this away from us.  We can continue to grow our sport and continue to have great wrestling.

[rebels4life]

Coach Tonte,

 

What you and your staff do year in year out,  just shows what you can do when you are committed. I recall the days before you guys took over.  You and your staff take raw talent and produce a very competitive team every year. I can understand your passion for team state.  I have witnessed it at Roncalli when Coach Ellis, Miller and the entire gang got involved.  The big problem with P.M. (IMO) is every year some school gets a transfer that puts them over the top.  Never on this board have I ever heard you complain about it. You guys keep on reloading with the kids you are dealt with.

[MattM]

Unfortunately, I don't see a very good way of doing a classed team without classed individual.  

 

3 Class Division

Sectionals consists of:

3-5 Teams from large class division

3-5 Team from middle class division

3-5 Team from small class division

 

2 Class Divsion

(But I don't think this may be broke up enough to realistally sustain and grow the sport through the team tournament)

5-7 teams from large class division

5-7 team from small class division

 

 

Award a sectional title to whatever team has the most sectional tournament point in each division.

Porochrial and Private school have some type of student population multiplier or are just simply moved up one division.

Have each team winner move on their own team regional matches.  

Have the top individuals reguarless of class move on to the individual team tournament.

 

In most cases we will still see many of the same teams go to state every year in each of the divisions.  But in the middle and smaller division things will change more.  Plus in many areas you will see more changes from year to year in who win the sectional and regional titles.  That means more coaches, schools  schools and communities can use it as  publicity for the sport.  This will help team state grow the sport at the lower levels more than it does now.  All of which while still keeping a individual state tournament as one class.

[Darrick Snyder]

Y2,

 

Come on man jump on board...you are making me laugh which is tough since I am sick over the possible loss of team state...however, we all know you greatly care about wrestling.  Isn't keeping Team State and working towards classing team state at least a step in the right direction???

 

 

Obviously, the details of how this would happen would have to be debated and worked out. We can iron out details and propsals and keep fighting for the sport and athletes we all love.  NONE of this will matter if we lose team state.  The first step MUST be to come TOGETHER and fight for team state!

 

Snyder

[MatChick76]

I've spent the last hour reading through these long posts.  I too have recently been hearing that this is the last year for Team State.  I had a referee sitting next to me at a football game and he started saying that it's a done deal, this is the last year for Team State, it's losing money and the IHSAA doesn't care if we want it or not, they're doing away with it.  I was like...do what?!?!  Of course, when I asked him if the IHSAA would consider dropping the rule about how far you can travel to compete, he looked at me like I was crazy and was like , "why would they do that?  If they do that, they might as well drop wrestling because all of the good teams would go out of town to compete."  I was like...well...they want to keep us competing here, but they don't want to keep Team State, an event that not only keeps us competing in Indiana, it extends the wrestling season, allows more wrestlers to compete for a state title, and allows those of us who love the sport to watch the best teams in Indiana compete for a true championship.  I'm still on the fence about classing wrestling.  I can see both sides, and for now, I lean toward keeping it classless.

 

I want to see Team State continue.  Although I love football, I've been chomping at the bit for wrestling to start, and hearing right away that this is the last year for Team State was heartbreaking.  Can anyone confirm if this is a done deal, or is this still up for discussion?

[tspray1]

Snyder,

 

Y2 is just being sarcastic for all the crap he has taken over the years in being out spoken for class wrestling.  I know this because I took the same criticism.  Im sure he just finds it odd now all of a sudden people are on board for Team class state.  Unfortunately it takes us almost losing Team state for people to jump on board.

 

 

Tim S

[Darrick Snyder]

I know he is joking that is why he has me laughing...I just meant lets get on board to take  the step towards classing team state

[Timeinandout]

Y2,

 

Sometimes I want to punch my computer when I read your posts, but I get your sarcasm... I see your point.  When you argue for class wrestling I yawn because it doesn't affect most Indianapolis area schools where I reside...they would all be big class.  Now that team state is threatened I get mad when people don't care because it doesn't affect them(some schools don't feel they stand a chance).  I think everyone agrees that team state should stay?

[CoachW33]

I know he is joking that is why he has me laughing...I just meant lets get on board to take  the step towards classing team state

 

What steps should be taken? I have heard us arguing for the survival of team state for the last couple of days, but I haven't heard any suggestions as to what can be done to help keep it around.

[indyshred]

Y2,

 

Sometimes I want to punch my computer when I read your posts, but I get your sarcasm... I see your point.  When you argue for class wrestling I yawn because it doesn't affect most Indianapolis area schools where I reside...they would all be big class.  Now that team state is threatened I get mad when people don't care because it doesn't affect them(some schools don't feel they stand a chance).  I think everyone agrees that team state should stay?

What is Y2's main point? He seems to be troubled at the fact that Team should be classed and individual should be left alone. I agree Team should be classed, but what we should be afraid of is is they let us class Team a bunch of people will use it as leverage to cry about individual state. Which should NEVER be classed. 

[529]

Class team

 

don't class individual

 

 

 

 

[Darrick Snyder]

CoachW33,

 

Great question!

 

The first step to be taken is get agreement among coaches and the IHSWCA that we have the SAME goal of saving the current Team State format and then working towards getting a classed Team State.  I am using this forum to get the dicussion going because I am absolutely shocked that none of this was brought to our attention MUCH sooner...

 

We have an IHSWCA Coaches Fall Clinic TOMORROW...I and other coaches plan to make this a topic of discussion...I was told it was 50-50 on whether coaches wanting team state...That is not the complete issue, goal or question though...The real question is: Do we want to fight to keep Team State as it is now and then work for a classed team state?  I have obvisouly been very involved in the discussion.  I have been bombarded by phone calls and emails.  Aboslutely no way it is 50-50 if we agree to try to eventually class team state...almost all of the dozens of coaches who have contacted me- close to a 100% - are in favor of saving team state and then trying to class it...

 

Steps:

1.) Come to an overwhelming agreement TOMORROW at the IHSWCA Fall Clinic that we as a whole are going to fight for Team State.  

2.) Let our Principals, AD's, and IHSAA know that the IHSWCA believes a team state finals is crucial to our sport..

3.) Work with the IHSAA to alter the Team State Finals to improve it to their satisfaction.

 

PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THE IHSAA IS LEANING TOWARDS ELIMINATING TEAM STATE BECAUSE WE AS THE IHSWCA ARE DOING NOTHING TO TELL THEM WE EVEN WANT IT!!!  

[tspray1]

I don't know how they can say its 50-50.  We voted on classing Team state back in 2002?  pr 2003 and its 90+% in favor then.  But some had their agenda's and went and proposed wrestle backs and class, the class was squashed in favor of the few who felt wrestle backs were more important. 

 

 

I hope you win this fight!!

[MattM]

I'm assuming we first need to convince the IHSAA team state in general is worth saving for their sake.  Some of that is by showing them that setting up a class team state in a few years would be a benifit to them.

[samaj]

well, maybe one good thing that will come out of this is that several coaches who haven't felt the need to attend a coaches clinics in the past will now show up and get involved.  Funny how that works.

[Signal34]

Its the same cry babies that whine that thier team cant do this and that.  Stop crying about it and do something about it. Im glad some of you cry babies wasnt my coach or dad i would have been smoking dope and crying that i cant do anything because im too small or i cant go to college because noone in my family has.  

[M109R]

Its the same cry babies that whine that thier team cant do this and that.  Stop crying about it and do something about it. Im glad some of you cry babies wasnt my coach or dad i would have been smoking dope and crying that i cant do anything because im too small or i cant go to college because noone in my family has.  

 

Great post , I get tired of hearing whiners saying the same teams attend every year .  Work harder to improve your teams , get the community involved and Start elementary and club wrestling . It will only make your team better  and wrestling as a whole in Indiana . Look at what Synder , Tonte and many other coaches have done , it can be done anywhere .  Team state is more important to me than Individual state . These kids practice everyday of the season with there TEAM , they should be given the chance to win a state championship as a TEAM .

[SpiderMonkey]

Ok heres my suggestion and maybe it has been done but lets do it again and reaffirm our stance. Lets provide the people who vote on this with our information and mission.  I have copied part of the ihsaa purpose statement below. Lets get them early and give them time to research this as opposed to just voting on it in what is probably a boring and formality based meeting. According to this there are 19 members lets go after them along with our AD's and principals. Im assuming if we can convince half of these for a majority maybe that will be sufficient. Thats only 10 people we really need to convince worst case if it has to be unanimous 19 people we need to convince.

 

 

The IHSAA is governed by its legislative body, the Board of Directors. Composed of 19 members who are elected by member school principals from three IHSAA legislative districts, the directors serve staggered three-year terms. The Board of Directors meets annually with the responsibility of establishing the Association?s rules and regulations. Within the Board of Directors is the Executive Committee, composed of directors serving the second and third years of their three-year terms.

 

The Executive Committee meets monthly and is responsible for organizing and directing state tournaments and meets, interpreting the Association's By-Laws, determining penalties for rules violations, and establishing the Association's state office and employing a commissioner and staff to administer the Association.

[Y2CJ41]

Darrick... and others,

My comments are exactly what I have been told over the years in respect to class wrestling.  When I present my stance on the issue, I routinely get comments about it ruining wrestling, not having a true champion and even(my personal favorite) the "I won't attend if there are classes."  All of a sudden though there is this swelling of support if that means we save the team series.  To me it is very odd that we have all these new supporters of a team class system if that means we save the team series.

 

Good teams are built from good individuals, in the case of Garrett, the program was built from having some good individuals first.  Eight years ago there were seven kids on the squad and the coaching staff built a 20-1, conference championship team from those seven wrestlers in two years.  They filled in the pieces around them to make one heck of a team. 

 

In order to grow wrestling in this state, it must first take place at the individual level.  More teams have success at the individual level than the team level, therefore if more teams have great individual accomplishments the better for the sport.  If we are truly concerned about the sport at all levels, we need to get more teams with successful individuals, then the successful teams will follow. 

 

I love the team series, but currently it has very little affect on me and my team.  We strive to have success in it, but that is the extent of it.  We will continue to build our team around great individuals and hope that we get the supporting cast to make a run at the team state title.