Team State Debate

[hammer]

If getting rid of Team State is based on declining revenue, then class Team State, as someone pointed out earlier!  If the IHSAA will only class Team State if they class Individual State, then class them both!  It's about the kids, and doing what's best for them.  People that are so against classing are more concerned with their own interests, not what's best for this sport!  

[Y2CJ41]

Lets not ruin team state by classing it.  I would not be able to sleep at night if we won the 1A state title and didn't know beyond a shadow of a doubt if we would be the 2A or 3A champions.  Classing has ruined basketball, baseball, softball and now soccer.  What if Mater Dei wins the small class?  How will we know who the TRUE CHAMPION is?

[tspray1]

If this is happening its a truly sad thing.

[infowrestling]

I think that classing the Team State Series is an option because the current system, isn't working............I guess.  I think the Individual Wrestling Tournament series, is working, so why change it?

[Y2CJ41]

What isn't working about the team series?  We get our true champion and no one can claim they aren't the true champion of Indiana.

[tskin]

I have modified my profile to reflect my feelings towards this issue!

 

And I would guess the part that isn't working he is reffering to would be the IHSAA taking the team series away!

[indyt]

Good morning all wrestling fans, coaches and wrestlers

 

I have been silent on this too long and have read and heard all of the dealings here and I can not sit back without saying things that need to be said.  In what I say I do not hope to offend anyone but I am going to tell it how it is.

 

First, in meeting with my athletic director yesterday, who is in favor of the team state, he said at the meeting last attended he did not get the impression that this was a done deal.  In fact, the impression that he got from Blake Ress was that this was in discussion stages only. 

 

My AD felt there were some great avenues to go down to keep this tournament.  This entire situation from the IHSAA standpoint is revenue based.  Why not do like Volleyball where every other year a sectional winner hosts the regional and it switches to the other sectional the next year.  Bring the dual meet to the home crowd.  How hard is that to expand revenue?  We traveled to Greencastle for the team regional and got home last year after midnight.  Who wants to drive way out of the way, get home really late when the four teams involved, Franklin, Bloomington South, Avon and PM could all pack the house(wrestling speaking) for a home dual for a regional championship.  Also, some proposals to look at are things like going back to two teams from sectional to increase teams.  Or, a team state invitational of 16 teams for two days or even classing this event.  Could you imagine the three state championship duals going on at the same time on mats 1, 2 and 3-WOW. 

 

One of the problems as I see it is the IHSAA thinks we are weak and not organized.  We can not agree if we want team state or not and they use it against us.  This one really kills me.  How can anyone who likes sports, likes team competition and wants to see the best teams compete for a title be against the team state. 

 

Here is what I really wanted to say.  It would have been really easy for me to sit up in the stands as a spectator  at Southport High School, where the team state was at and say I am against this tournament.  Why not be against it.  It was my first year at PM.  I had three kids show up at the first club practice and I had 9 kids on the roster at the end of the first year.  We went 5-15.  We got killed by Southport, Decatur Central, North Central, Lawrence North, Lawrence Central, Beech Grove, Roncalli.... We beat Park Tudor, Tech, Broad Ripple.  We were terrible.  We  sacrificed family, friends , vacations....My coaching staff made a committment to outwork everyone.  I am not sure if we did.  I know we have not reached the ultimate goal but I think we have proven that you can take a program from nothing and make something.  I am tired of people crying and saying its always the same teams.  It wasnt PM for our first  4 or 5 years.  Then when we got there we beat up on a program called Mishawaka that is now handing out butt whippens. 

 

We used to all say its EMD hands down and then some school called Castle decided to live up to their name and build the biggest house down south and reign king of the Southern Castle.  Now Penn has worked its ass off and has decided to try and  dethrowne Mishawaka.  How about the Cathedral and LN battles?  What about Bellmonts upset of  favored Yorktown two years ago  and Yorktowns rise to the top.  I am tired of saying its the same teams.  If these are the best teams in the state then what are you really saying.  That you dont want to see the best team in the state win.  How in the world does that make sense?  Let me repeat it.  Everyone agrees these are the best teams, yet you have a problem with the best teams winning.  WOW.  Explain that. 

 

Our program has expancded from 9 kids to 80 at the high school.  Its very time consuming, very hard, and very longs long hours.  We work from the bottom up and we fight every fight all programs big or small fight.    I have been to several schools.  I speak from coaching at all levels.  Its what you make of it.  The only reason we have the numbers we have is not becasue we have  a big school but rather its because we preach that every kid will be rewarded from  our teams success.  We preach it all the way to elementary. 

 

Is this really over?  How are PM, Mishawaka, teams like this just now hearing about it? Why is the IHSAA being so silent about this if it is a done deal. Again, I hope to not offend anyone.  That is not my purpose.  I know that I am going to hear some negative feedback.  I want to say this again.  I am for Class Team.  The only reason I did not want class before was that I wanted to beat EMD.  A better team(Mishawaka and Castle) and program beat me to it.  I love this sport.  I love coaching kids from all over, not just PM.  I think losing team state will hurt our numbers in this sport.

 

 

Coach Tonte

Also, I am not cutting down the teams we lost to my first year, rather informing you we were the doormat of Marion County then.

[infowrestling]

Is attendance falling in the Individual Series?

[indyt]

Also, I want to apologize for typos.  I was in a hurry to finish teaching Economics to a class full of kids who could not wait until the bell rang so they can go get a free and reduced lunch.  Just the area I live in baby!!  SOUTHSIDE!  

[MattM]

I'm almost postive wrestling team state isn't the only sports program the IHSAA constantly loses money on.  Not sure why it is one of the main ones to go over re-configuring some of the other sports to make more revenue efficient.

[Cale Hoover]

The IHSAA makes money on team state.  They have never liked the idea of team state and are using the data as a way to justify the means. 

[AJ]

Why the talk that losing the team series will hurt or kill wrestling in Indiana.  Did the team series really bring that many more people to the sport?  Did a bunch of non-traditional wrestling powers develop since the implimentation of the state series?  I was a fan of the team series, but I do have to wonder why all the gloom over losing the team portion and the implications it will have on the sport of wrestling.  I do understand that when you get something you never want to give it up, but the gloomy attitude seems a bit much.  Y2 said it best when he said that the team series is pretty much for 16-20 teams, so has it truly done anything for the sport as a whole in the state of Indiana?  Maybe that is our fault as coaches. 

[CoachW33]

Why the talk that losing the team series will hurt or kill wrestling in Indiana.  Did the team series really bring that many more people to the sport?  Did a bunch of non-traditional wrestling powers develop since the implimentation of the state series?  I was a fan of the team series, but I do have to wonder why all the gloom over losing the team portion and the implications it will have on the sport of wrestling.  I do understand that when you get something you never want to give it up, but the gloomy attitude seems a bit much.  Y2 said it best when he said that the team series is pretty much for 16-20 teams, so has it truly done anything for the sport as a whole in the state of Indiana?  Maybe that is our fault as coaches. 

 

For those 16-20 teams, it has grown their fan base and helped students join the team to be apart of something special. Now lets think, if we broke team state into three classes we just tripled the number of teams the team tournament affects. Instead of this affecting 16-20 teams we have it affecting 48 - 60 teams and fan bases for these team growing as well.

[indyshred]

When I first started following high school wrestling,  our school had a great run and reached the team tournament at CG. I was blown away by the excitement of the day I spent there. I've followed many sports and can honestly say it is the best one day event high school can offer IMO .  I also love the individual finals but honestly  it misses that "us against them" attitude. I know not all teams will get to team state, but why not fight to keep team state alive and get your program to that level as Coach Tonte and Snyder have done. If needed class team but under NO circumstances class individual.

[ENoblewrestling]

I again want to state that I agree with coach snider 100 percent on this issue.  Nothing would be worse for our sport than loosing the team series.  If we ever want a classed team state then the loss of the finals we have now would kill that idea.

Y2 the difference between the team and individual is just that, the team is fourteen guys, the individual is just one.  I know you don't see it the way that most of us do, but the team portion of the tournament is influenced greatly by the size of the school, and the fact that we don't have as good of atheletes.  It makes it very hard for a team to compete.  The size of the school doesn't affect an indivdual, small schools obviously won't have the number of finalists that big schools have because they are not as good, or deserving of making it to the finals, they do though still have the same oppurtunity which is not true of the team portion.  I think that most of us view the two as completly seperate things.

If we want to keep things like the team state what we need is a more powerful ihswca, but due to lack of participation by the coaches we look weak.  Its no ones fault but our own.  I haven't missed a fall or spring meeting since I became a coach, get down there and show our strenght in numbers.

Finally and this is just an idea, since the clinic is in Indy, and the Ihsaa is there as well is there anyway we could get Bobby Cox or an ihsaa rep to our meeting to discuss what is going to happen?

[dullguy]

I agree the IHSAA Wrestling Team State competition should not be eliminated but potentially improved upon.

 

An easy solution would be to have schools placed into two (2) categories at the beginning of the year (Largest 50% and Smallest 50%) and have the Wrestling Sectional determine who would proceed in the team competition based on overall sectional team points as the Sectional crown is chosen today. The Team from the Sectional the finished highest in the Large School category would proceed as would the Small School Category team. This would create more excitement in this area at Sectional as there would be more on the line as Sectional Finals concluded as maybe the teams shooting for the small school advancement might still not be locked in even though the overall champion had been annointed before the finals even started.

 

With the two team state plan, 50% more teams could continue in the team competition, more revenue would be reaped and their would be 50% more fans excited about the Team State Tournament.

 

I would not support a Class system like basketball did as that has ruined their state tournament but this would be a change that would leave the existing program in place but would afford another set of teams to proceed in a State team Tournament format.

[Y2CJ41]

buscowrestling,

I know from personal experience that being surrounded by a bunch of studs will improve you more than being surrounded by a bunch of duds.

[CoachW33]

buscowrestling,

I know from personal experience that being surrounded by a bunch of studs will improve you more than being surrounded by a bunch of duds.

 

I agree that being surrounded by studs is helpful for a wrestler to be successful. However, isn't there a saying that champions aren't made in the winter, they're made in the off season? I would think any state champion or wrestler who?s had success at state would tell you, it was the other 7-9 months they put into the sport that helped them achieve their success. I know for a fact that Coach Snyder has an open room that wrestlers drive to weekly during the off season that rivals most tournaments when talent is compared. If you want to get better you're going to go out of your way to find the open rooms with the talent and coaches that will make you better. This is all my opinion though, and I respect your thoughts on the subject. It is easier to build a great team of individuals when your school has the numbers, but I don't believe it is the only way and shouldn't be an excuse as to why success wasn't reached.

[cewrestlingfan]

It will be difficult to convince the IHSAA what is best for our sport because we don't even know what is best for our sport.  By reading through this thread and many others, it is obvious we can't agree what we want or the direction that is best for our sport.  If we can't agree on what we want, then we sure as hell are not going to be able to convince the IHSAA.  I think that one of the most important objectives of the coaches association  is to get all of the wrestling community together so that any requests or presentations we make to the IHSAA can be done with all of the wrestling community in agreement or with a united front.  WE HAVE TO KNOW WHAT WE WANT FIRST!!!

[Y2CJ41]

I agree that being surrounded by studs is helpful for a wrestler to be successful. However, isn't there a saying that champions aren't made in the winter, they're made in the off season? I would think any state champion or wrestler who?s had success at state would tell you, it was the other 7-9 months they put into the sport that helped them achieve their success. I know for a fact that Coach Snyder has an open room that wrestlers drive to weekly during the off season that rivals most tournaments when talent is compared. If you want to get better you're going to go out of your way to find the open rooms with the talent and coaches that will make you better. This is all my opinion though, and I respect your thoughts on the subject. It is easier to build a great team of individuals when your school has the numbers, but I don't believe it is the only way and shouldn't be an excuse as to why success wasn't reached.

So in my case since I did not achieve success at the high school level I did not put time into the sport in the offseason? 

[CoachW33]

So in my case since I did not achieve success at the high school level I did not put time into the sport in the offseason? 

 

No, I understand after reading my post again that it came across that way. I should rephrase that, I meant you can't blame your lack of success on what you have in your room with you. If you do not have a wrestling partner or a room of studs to push you don't blame your lack of success on this alone. I was pointing out there are ways to find talent and coaching in the off season that can push you to become successful. This doesn't guarantee success, but it sure does give you a better shot at getting better.

[Y2CJ41]

No, I understand after reading my post again that it came across that way. I should rephrase that, I meant you can't blame your lack of success on what you have in your room with you. If you do not have a wrestling partner or a room of studs to push you don't blame your lack of success on this alone. I was pointing out there are ways to find talent and coaching in the off season that can push you to become successful. This doesn't guarantee success, but it sure does give you a better shot at getting better.

 

So if you have two equal wrestlers, one has five semi-state qualifiers to work with every day, the other has five sectional qualifiers to work with.  Who will progress more throughout the season? 

 

You simply write off the four months that are spent in the wrestling room during the season five/six days a week like they are nothing.  The other eight months are two or three days a week at most.  You can get better all you want in the offseason, but if you don't have the practice partners during the season you will still have limited potential. 

[Darrick Snyder]

cewrestlingfan,

 

I believe we overwhelmingly DO AGREE on what is the best direction for the sport of wrestling!

 

Does ANYONE on here not agree that a CLASSED TEAM STATE is BEST for our sport?  If so, PLEASE tell us and tell us why.  WE ARE IN AGREEMENT!

 

What we are doing though is looking at this short term!  IHSAA won't currently give us a classed team state so some say lets just eliminate it all together.  That just takes us farther from our goal and makes NO freaking sesne. 

 

For crying out loud people, we MUST think long term!  It can happen!  OTHER STATES HAVE a classed team state!  Other sports have it.  My son is 15 months old, but I want what is best for him.  What about our elementary and junior high wrestlers?  We won't get a classed team state next year, but we can get it for the younger guys!

 

Again, does ANYONE not believe a classed Team State is what is best for the long term growth and interest in our sport?  ANYONE????

 

If we agree on this, then the only step is to fight for TEAM STATE as it is currently and work for classes down the road!  Don't accept defeat...don't take a step back! 

 

 

 

AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS?

 

Snyder

[MattM]

So if you have two equal wrestlers, one has five semi-state qualifiers to work with every day, the other has five sectional qualifiers to work with.  Who will progress more throughout the season?  

 

That semi-state qualifier may not be near your weight if you are at a big or at a small school so may not matter anyway.   It not necessarily the size of the school but the circumstances of the school wrestling program and other super motivated individual around your weight in the room that will be more of a determining factor of if you have a quality practice partner or not.  I've seen individuals at both big and small school have sucess and drag their practice partners along with them.  I've seen both big and small school have individual stuggles too.  It is much easier to get a few individuals together and do what it takes to get somepalce than it is to put together a whole team that can do it.  We put one of the top 10 kids in state on any big or small school team that team instantly improves his practice partner.  For that reason I can see a large difference in wanting to class an individual state competition vs. wanting to class a team state competition where some school have limited numbers to pull an entire team of motivated and talented individuals from.

[indyt]

Darrick,  I would be willing to take butt whippins from you guys for a long time.  I have a 6th grader, a 2 year old and a 5 month old.  Hopefully everyone jumps on board and at least when Mish. wrestles PM in 2024 or something like that our little ones will be competing each other for a class 3A state title.  

 

Come one people, AJ-how can you not see this?  The team state has increased number of wrestlers competing when it means something.  It has increased numbers and excitement for teams who make it and those who dont.  It is, without a doubt, the number one reason PM wrestling is pretty successful.  How can anyone think that the Team State is a bad thing.  It puts strategy, team, coaching-all of it into play.  PM was second in the state in 92 with four place winners.  I know these guys and love those guys but their team would have been beat by 25 by the recent PM teams yet they were state runner ups.  

 

Dont you guys love team sports, kids high fiving each other.  Fans-are you kidding.  Do you really think your school bring more fans for the two kids at state than if you had a full team!!!

 

 

Darrick, bring the signs.  I will walk with you,

 

Coach Tonte