Team State Debate

[Y2CJ41]

Ok not only does team state prove who the best team is it also proves who the best coach is. If it is decided to make it decided by individual results you lose alot of coaching strategy. I grew up during the mater dei dynasty i started wrestling at the age 4 and now im a junior at mishawaka i can remeber hating how mater dei always found a way to win and alot of that is coaching. Goebel always new what to do to make his team win. Now i have been in jv for the last 2 years and as a jv wrestler we know there are really 25 things we have to do to acomplish what we want as a team

 

1.We have to help push and beat on the varsity during practice to make them better and to get them in better shape to help us get are goal of a team state championship.

 

2.We know that we could be called on anytime to jump ini the line-up whether for injury or to bump the line-up to give us a better chance of winning. An example of this was last year when we wrestled crown point and our coach darrick snyder told brian weldon a sophmore who was on the jv the he would be wrestlling eric roach and that he was the "sacrificial lamb".

 

Coach snyder tells us everyday about how before he was there the just broke on state and how that was dumb, i remember hearing that when my dad coached here and asking him why they only said state. i know im alittle bias here because i am from mishawaka and our main goal every year is to win a team state championship, and individual state championships are icing on the cake.

 

Team state championships make the whole school feel proud to be part of their school that is one thingn individual state champions just cant do.

 

You cant build a program around indivual state champions, why they help for those years it is hard to do anything after they leave. A great example of this is griffith. they were great when the escobedos and tsirtis were there but now they are an average team. Team state championships are very easy to build off of because kids that know they are aaverage wrestler at a school with one or two studs will think they might not win anything but if theyre at a school with a great team program they will buy in and work to because they will have the chance at something. i know this because im in that situation right now.

 

All i ask is for everyone to please support keeping team state as it is cause it only makes things better!

 

Whether there is a team state series or not will not affect about 290 teams in the state.  The team state series has little effect on most teams in the state.  I know personally it will not change anything that we do at Garrett and many other small schools.

[ENoblewrestling]

Y2 let's say that no team will ever improve and that the same 15 to 20 teams will be the only teams to ever compete. If this is the situation it is obvious that it won't change unless the team portion is classed.  So if we were to ever class it wouldn't you think that a classed team state would be a better way to determine who the best small school is rather than desiding it at a classed individual state?

I mean you are always arguing for that you want what is best for Indiana Wrestling, but can you really say that dropping team state is better for our state as a whole?  Even if not everyone has a legit chance they still don't using the individual state to deside it.  This is in my opinion the most important issue the state has had in the last decade and feel it is something we need to fight to keep.

[Big Hawaiian]

Y2 let's say that no team will ever improve and that the same 15 to 20 teams will be the only teams to ever compete. If this is the situation it is obvious that it won't change unless the team portion is classed.  So if we were to ever class it wouldn't you think that a classed team state would be a better way to determine who the best small school is rather than desiding it at a classed individual state?

I mean you are always arguing for that you want what is best for Indiana Wrestling, but can you really say that dropping team state is better for our state as a whole?  Even if not everyone has a legit chance they still don't using the individual state to deside it.  This is in my opinion the most important issue the state has had in the last decade and feel it is something we need to fight to keep.

 

EMD is just one example of  a team that would not be in the large school division but Im quite sure they would consider a state title in a smaller class watered down! ???

[Y2CJ41]

The stats don't lie there fella....

In 15 years of the team state series...

36 or 11.6% different teams represented out of 120 opportunities

21 of those teams have been to the team state finals multiple times

27 of those teams were 4A or bigger

 

Eliminating team state would affect at most 10% of the teams in the state.  I will side with the other 90% that it won't matter to them if there is a team series or not. 

 

If you really want to grow wrestling in this state class the individual side.  Right now around 90 teams each year are represented at Conseco.  That is almost 30% of the teams in the state.  Indiana is statistically the TOUGHEST state in the whole nation to quality for state.  We take around 5% of the varsity wrestlers to the state finals.  In the past about 12 years there have been approximately 260 teams represented at the individual finals.  Lets just put it this way, the individual finals affects more teams than the team finals.

 

If you class individual state(two classes), half the schools in the state will see an increase in state qualifiers by 4x and the other half will see an increase in 1.3X.  If teams start having more individual success they will start to have more team success because people will want to be a part of it.  It is much easier for a coach to find two or three studs to have individual success and build a program around than to find 14 different kids that are 103-285lbs. 

 

Classing team state into three classes will make the overall teams affected by the team series around 60.  That is still less than will be affected year in year out the individual tournament. 

 

Sorry, but classing team state will not affect the teams that routinely finish in the bottom half of their sectionals already.  Classing the individual state will affect those teams as they will start having more state qualifiers and kids in the ticket round to state.  When you start having individual success you will have team success.  Every team that is now a team state contender started out with lots of individual success. 

[Y2CJ41]

EMD is just one example of  a team that would not be in the large school division but Im quite sure they would consider a state title in a smaller class watered down! ???

 

Mater Dei doesn't seem to have issues with winning 2A football or baseball state titles. 

[ENoblewrestling]

The stats don't lie there fella....

In 15 years of the team state series...

36 or 11.6% different teams represented out of 120 opportunities

21 of those teams have been to the team state finals multiple times

27 of those teams were 4A or bigger

 

Eliminating team state would affect at most 10% of the teams in the state.  I will side with the other 90% that it won't matter to them if there is a team series or not. 

 

If you really want to grow wrestling in this state class the individual side.  Right now around 90 teams each year are represented at Conseco.  That is almost 30% of the teams in the state.  Indiana is statistically the TOUGHEST state in the whole nation to quality for state.  We take around 5% of the varsity wrestlers to the state finals.  In the past about 12 years there have been approximately 260 teams represented at the individual finals.  Lets just put it this way, the individual finals affects more teams than the team finals.

 

If you class individual state(two classes), half the schools in the state will see an increase in state qualifiers by 4x and the other half will see an increase in 1.3X.  If teams start having more individual success they will start to have more team success because people will want to be a part of it.  It is much easier for a coach to find two or three studs to have individual success and build a program around than to find 14 different kids that are 103-285lbs. 

 

Classing team state into three classes will make the overall teams affected by the team series around 60.  That is still less than will be affected year in year out the individual tournament. 

 

Sorry, but classing team state will not affect the teams that routinely finish in the bottom half of their sectionals already.  Classing the individual state will affect those teams as they will start having more state qualifiers and kids in the ticket round to state.  When you start having individual success you will have team success.  Every team that is now a team state contender started out with lots of individual success. 

 

So does finding the best team not matter anymore?  If the team side was classed why couldn't a team find some hope from that and rise up from the bottom of the ranks?  How is it better to have a situation where only the studs matter? What about the kids that are not good enough to go to state?  I just don't see how the continuation of a classed team tourny wouldn't be good for the sport?  Even if it only affects sixty teams at least they would be deserving of it.  Why should we punish or top teams for being good?

[Y2CJ41]

So does finding the best team not matter anymore? 

Not to most people as evident by 1,200 being in attendance this past year.  When we have 15,000+ at the individual finals.  There are 1/2 as many wrestlers at team state and only 8% of the number of people that go to team state.  That tells me more people care about the individual finals.

 

If the team side was classed why couldn't a team find some hope from that and rise up from the bottom of the ranks? 

Teams that are not good now aren't going to be good in a classed system.  In order to build a good team you must first have a handful of good kids to build it around.  The success and numbers at Garrett is directly proportional to the INDIVIDUAL state qualifiers and placers.

 

How is it better to have a situation where only the studs matter?

It gives more teams a chance for a title and means that a small school with five studs can place high.

 

What about the kids that are not good enough to go to state? 

What about them? 

 

I just don't see how the continuation of a classed team tourny wouldn't be good for the sport? 

If a classed team tournament would be good for the sport, why wouldn't a classed individual tournament?  I would like something that affects 85% of the teams rather than 20%.  Why can't we help 85% of the teams instead?  Wouldn't that be better for the sport?

 

Even if it only affects sixty teams at least they would be deserving of it.  Why should we punish or top teams for being good?

How are we punishing them?  They are the same teams that would be competing for titles if the champion is determined at individual state.

[Big Hawaiian]

Mater Dei doesn't seem to have issues with winning 2A football or baseball state titles.  

 

How do you know Y2? Thats a IHSAA rule not the school and or coach, also wrestling is somewhat a individual sport so as I see it the best small school to large school kid gets to prove who's the best on our current format at our individual state. I don't think a wrestler is at all at a disadvantage coming from a small school, hes either honed his skills outside his high school wrestling room or he has not! With that being said we get the best individual state champions and with the current system we tend to get the best overall team, but some would argue we need to seed the current team state format so the best and second best team doesn't meet off the bat at state, and thats really the only change I would like to see.

 I do understand your arguement and it may make more money and involve more teams, but I think most would rather have truly the best in team and individuals win the state tourneys. Thats just my thoughts but understand yours and think there is merit to your arguement, but I just disagree with the purpose of crowning champions and don't want to see it watered down.

[ENoblewrestling]

Y2 for this topic we will just have to disagree about the indivdual side.  On the team side I don't see how you can say that a team with 5 studs is more deserving of a TEAM state title than a team with 14 well rounded wrestlers.

[Y2CJ41]

First off, no way the IHSAA will seed the state finals.  You have a better chance at finding Elvis alive than that happening anytime soon.  

 

The superficial and egotistical side of me loves the one class system.  BUT, the side of me that wants to see wrestling grow in this state would like to see more kids and more teams involved longer in the state series.  Mr. Hawaiian, I know you have been around the sport and have seen what success can breed.  If a team starts having individuals with success, more kids will want to be a part of that.  If more kids are taking part in wrestling then it is great for the sport.  People want to be around others that are having success, even if they have a small part in it.

[Y2CJ41]

Y2 for this topic we will just have to disagree about the indivdual side.  On the team side I don't see how you can say that a team with 5 studs is more deserving of a TEAM state title than a team with 14 well rounded wrestlers.

If you only care about the teams in the state that can field 14 well rounded wrestlers you only care about a very small percentage of the teams in the state.  Something in the vicinity of about 5% of the teams in the state each year. 

 

I guess we should grow the sport at the already strong teams in the state and not do anything for the teams that can't field 14 well rounded wrestlers.

[Big Hawaiian]

First off, no way the IHSAA will seed the state finals.  You have a better chance at finding Elvis alive than that happening anytime soon.  

 

The superficial and egotistical side of me loves the one class system.  BUT, the side of me that wants to see wrestling grow in this state would like to see more kids and more teams involved longer in the state series.  Mr. Hawaiian, I know you have been around the sport and have seen what success can breed.  If a team starts having individuals with success, more kids will want to be a part of that.  If more kids are taking part in wrestling then it is great for the sport.  People want to be around others that are having success, even if they have a small part in it.

 

As I said your arguement has merit and thats a strong point, I just think if you have classes then they all would need to wrestle each other after they've been crowned or the label of champion means little. You could have 2-3 champs at each weight class & teams, then the debate would be who's really the best and we both know Elvis would knock on your door before the IHSAA would grant us that. So you still would have questions on who's the best team and individuals which wont satisfy most.

[Y2CJ41]

You could have 2-3 champs at each weight class & teams, then the debate would be who's really the best

People always debate if the 2010 state champs would be the 1990 state champs or any other two random year matchups.  We also have debates on if the 103lbs champ can beat the 112lbs champ.  Is it really that bad to have debates like that?  Does it hurt anyone that we can't physically have these match-ups?  I love telling people how tough so and so was back in the day and how he would kick the best kid in the state's butt today.  Go check out the football board and see them discuss if the best 1A team can beat the best 3A team.  Discussing and debating fantasy match-ups happen all the time and no one has died since they didn't get to see Jason Tsirtsis of 2010 wrestle Frankie Porras of 2009.

 

Also, when you say we wouldn't know who the true best would be, we would probably know 90% of the time.  No matter the class, we know that Jason Tsirtsis is the toughest SOB at 130lbs.  We know that because he beats up on everyone during the season and in the offseason at tournaments around the state and nation.  We also would have events like the Al Smith where you could have a 1A placer wrestle a 2A placer and such.  There would be plenty of gauges to tell who the best in the state is. 

 

Even with a one class system we still have people claiming, what ifs about the state championships.  People were talking about how the Stein vs. Duckworth match would have possibly had a different outcome if Duckworth didn't ding his head early on.  People were talking about how Aaron Stevenson beat Michael Johnson-Jones and would have won state if he was healthy.  Those are just two examples from this past season where people were debating on who really was the best wrestler in the state this year. 

 

Other states don't seem to have issues with not having a "true" champion.  You don't see the Schott in Ohio burning down because they crown three champs in each weight class.  Also when you see pictures of each champion they all seem to have a smile on their face and their family, friends, coaches, teammates, and school all celebrate a 1A state championship the same as a 2 or 3A one.

[Y2CJ41]

buscowrestling,

Quick question.  What do you think of the addition of the 4th place finisher from regional advancing to the semi-state?  Is that good for teams and individuals, bad or will it have no affect on them?

 

[Big Hawaiian]

Y2,

I think your goal seems to be involving more teams and kids in the state tourneys to hopefully help  make the sport grow here and to make the IHSAA more money. Now I think the flaw with that is you water down the meaning of champions(because you will have multiple at each weight), and your arguement above is a poor one because it opens up more debate and questions on who's the best within the same year(you will always have woulda, shoulda, coulda arguements but the best that weekend are crowned). Yes people will always compare who was the best  between kids from year to year, but creating those same questions within the same year is a big flaw.

Your best arguement is it may help grow the sport in our state but at the same time our state comes out with one true individual champ in each weight class, and I think a kid from a small school is at no disadvantages because he can wrestle outside his room outside the schools season as many of our champs do. Team state could only improve again by seeding the tournament so you get a true #1 & #2. But again I see your arguement and just prefer our current system, because I think yours creates even more questions and debate. Can we agree to disagree?

[Y2CJ41]

I feel ripped off we don't get to see a battle of our supposed "true" state champions.  I want to see Cody Phillips wrestle Kyle Ayersman and Drake Stein.  Heck I would love to see Phillips against Ross Janney to determine the TRUE Indiana wrestling champion.  Heck we do that in cross country, golf, track and tennis, why not wrestling?

[Jimtown 138]

I feel ripped off we don't get to see a battle of our supposed "true" state champions.  I want to see Cody Phillips wrestle Kyle Ayersman and Drake Stein.  Heck I would love to see Phillips against Ross Janney to determine the TRUE Indiana wrestling champion.  Heck we do that in cross country, golf, track and tennis, why not wrestling?

 

There's not weight classes in x country, golf, track, and tennis.

[Y2CJ41]

There's not weight classes in x country, golf, track, and tennis.

Then there shouldn't be any in wrestling.  If Cody Phillips wants to beat Ross Janney he will just need to work harder right?  Maybe hit the weight room hard in the offseason.  He will have advantages like being quicker and smaller to not let Janney in on his legs.

[FANMAN]

Then there shouldn't be any in wrestling.  If Cody Phillips wants to beat Ross Janney he will just need to work harder right?  Maybe hit the weight room hard in the offseason.  He will have advantages like being quicker and smaller to not let Janney in on his legs.

 

Awesome, perfect.  Lets make it happen... 1 man teams.. screw the others.  I like it. 

[Jimtown 138]

Then there shouldn't be any in wrestling.  If Cody Phillips wants to beat Ross Janney he will just need to work harder right?  Maybe hit the weight room hard in the offseason.  He will have advantages like being quicker and smaller to not let Janney in on his legs.

 

Is that how they do it in Ohio?

[Y2CJ41]

That is how they should do it so we have a true champion.  There are true champions in cross country, golf, track and tennis.  Wrestling doesn't have a true champion in the same essence that those sports have. 

 

If you are against classes you should be very much for less weight classes, so we get at least as clue to true champions as possible.

[Jimtown 138]

That is how they should do it so we have a true champion.  There are true champions in cross country, golf, track and tennis.  Wrestling doesn't have a true champion in the same essence that those sports have. 

 

If you are against classes you should be very much for less weight classes, so we get at least as clue to true champions as possible.

 

Well now you're just being silly... You better start juicin' that little guy of yours now. By the time he gets into high school he'll make Brock Lesnar look like a little wimp!

[Y2CJ41]

Why is it silly?  We are watering down what it means to be a state champion when we have 14 of them each year.  No other sport crowns 14 different state champions.  Are we really finding out who the best wrestler in the state is by doing this?  How does Cody Phillips sleep at night not knowing if he can beat Brandon Nelsen or Jason Tsirtsis?

 

How do we truly know who the best wrestler in the state is if they don't wrestle?

[Jimtown 138]

Why is it silly?  We are watering down what it means to be a state champion when we have 14 of them each year.  No other sport crowns 14 different state champions.  Are we really finding out who the best wrestler in the state is by doing this?  How does Cody Phillips sleep at night not knowing if he can beat Brandon Nelsen or Jason Tsirtsis?

 

How do we truly know who the best wrestler in the state is if they don't wrestle?

 

May be you have something there Y2. I found this online- "When Pierre de Coubertin resurrected the Olympic Games in 1896 after a 1,500-year hiatus, officials tried to connect to the ancient past by introducing upper-torso-restricted Greco-Roman wrestling as an event. There was one unlimited weight class, but that didn't stop an agile 5-foot-4 German named Carl Schumann from winning the gold. He also won three golds in gymnastics." ;D

[infowrestling]

The thought that the class system would water down the competition is just looking at it short term.  I think in the long run the competition would become stronger.  The more kids that  experience success, will in turn, garner more wrestlers.  The more athletes you have going out for a sport, the less watered down it will be.  The idea in general  for us in the wrestling community, should be to get more kids on the mat, receiving more attention for wrestling as a whole.