Team State Debate

[KarlHungus]

Amen!  Thank you for your 3 line summarization of 10 years of message board debate.

[Big Hawaiian]

Y2, Karl & Info,

 

I think you've mistaken our state wrestling tournaments as your local feel good everybody gets a trophy little league! But most all little leagues EVEN HAVE ONE CHAMPION  at the end of their season. Heck why not have a state champ for each class of  Freshman, Sophmores, Junior, & Senior wrestlers? I'm sure that would appeal to alot of kids to come wrestle because their odds just got much better to be a state champ. As I said before I think it only waters down the titles and raises more questions and debate as to whos the true state champs, and not just short term because you would ALWAYS have multiple champs per weight class and more than one team champ! Just my opinion....

[infowrestling]

I'm not really sure whether to take that as a compliment or an insult Mr. Hungus.  Since it is Friday I will take it as a compliment.

[KarlHungus]

I'm not really sure whether to take that as a compliment or an insult Mr. Hungus.  Since it is Friday I will take it as a compliment.

 

Info...100% compliment

[KarlHungus]

Y2, Karl & Info,

 

I think you've mistaken our state wrestling tournaments as your local feel good everybody gets a trophy little league! But most all little leagues EVEN HAVE ONE CHAMPION  at the end of their season. Heck why not have a state champ for each class of  Freshman, Sophmores, Junior, & Senior wrestlers? I'm sure that would appeal to alot of kids to come wrestle because their odds just got much better to be a state champ. As I said before I think it only waters down the titles and raises more questions and debate as to whos the true state champs, and not just short term because you would ALWAYS have multiple champs per weight class and more than one team champ! Just my opinion....

 

Y2 already debunked this defense.  If having one true champion were the goal, then have one weight class would be proper set up.

[ENoblewrestling]

buscowrestling,

Quick question.  What do you think of the addition of the 4th place finisher from regional advancing to the semi-state?  Is that good for teams and individuals, bad or will it have no affect on them?

 

 

Y2  I agree that is a good thing, and I do see the merit in some of your points on the class system.  I just personally dont feel that it is best for the intgerity of the sport.  If we class it, all that means is that making it to state is less of an accomplishment.  We have had eight state qualifiers in the history of our school.  If it were classed I legitly believe that we would have had 8 in the last two seasons, I just dont think that is good for our sport.  It makes a great accomplishment become something that goes to just average/ above average wrestlers.  I think that advancing four to the semi-state has watered the semi-state down, and has made advancing out of regionals a much less impresive feat.  I think that being a "semi-stater" has lost some of its luster.  I think that at the semi-state that is exceptable, but not for the state finals, its for the best of the best, that is the point of it.  

The weight class argument has been used on here before, and I canot see how some buy into this argument.  Its the nature of our sport, it obviously needs weight classes this is a bogus argument.

 

Y2 I didn't see an answer to my earlier  question- which do you think gives us a better idea of the true team champion a 14 man roster vs another 14 man roster, or the team that can produce the 5 best wrestlers?  If its the best 5 wrestlers, then why waist time on the kids who are not ever going to be a state caliber wretler?

[CoachW33]

Y2, I'm at a cross roads. For a while I've read your posts about classing state and how Garrett and other small schools are at a disadvantage because they just don't have the numbers to compete with larger schools.

 

I have never liked this argument. Being a young minded person, I may be a bit naive due to a lack of experience I have, but I say build your program. Since I was young the thing I desired most was to take a team and build it to the likes of Mishawaka. I talked to a group of coaches awhile ago about what they felt was important in building a strong program. One of the top things they stated was a strong feeder program. I have thought this through over the last year and understand the amount of work and time that is required.

 

Starting with the elementary students, if you got three kids in 4th, 5th, and 6th grade (9 total) to join a club wrestling team by the time they reach middle school they will have a solid foundation. I also understand by the time the years get to middle school half or more will drop off, however I believe if you play your cards right, the number of kids in the elementary program will grow as well.

 

Creating a foundation and getting kids interested at a young age will help build a program. I look at Jimtown High School, they have a very respectable program and Coach Kern does a heck of a job getting kids involved. These kids start young and by the time they are in middle school they are solid wrestlers ready to make a jump from middle school to high school. A side note, look for Jimtown to have a very good team for some time to come.

 

It has been because of this mindset I have disagreed with you on classing the individual tournament. However, since the topic of keeping team state in place came up I've thought more about the growth of wrestling. I believe classing the team portion would give Indiana growth in wrestling and would still allow us to have a tough individual series as well. I also began to think about classing the individual side of wrestling in Indiana.

 

Three of the top teams in the US in wrestling have classed individual tournaments. Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Iowa are all classed and it would be hard to find someone to argue against their dominance compared to other states in the sport of wrestling. Many of the top teams in each class still face off during the season and many of the top wrestlers still face off on the weekends during tournaments. These states make it work and turn out wrestlers every year that get recruited by D1 colleges.

 

Today I will say I would welcome class wrestling. I believe it would get more kids out for multiple reasons, Y2 has touched on a couple already.  The one I think would be the biggest attractor is wrestlers would have more success in the state tournament. Yes, some weights in particular classes would be somewhat watered down, but with time more wrestlers would build more competition in each class. With success come more guys wanting to be apart of success, lets face it success is contagious. You would have three times the opportunities to place at state.

 

Y2, congrats, I'm a believer.

 

My only disagreement, and I'm not sure its a disagreement is that I would like to see team state stay in place. I feel many wrestlers join the team to be apart of the camaraderie that a team provides. I think without the team aspect, some school's practices would become a club of sorts where wrestlers only care about themselves and the wrestlers with the lesser skill set would get left out or behind. This would create a survival of the fittest environment. With the team, each member is worried about helping the team by building the weaker wrestlers up and helping where they can.

[ENoblewrestling]

This was a topic about the importance of saving team state.  I think that we should get back to that topic as I would say it is the most important issue for wrestling in our state at this time

[Big Hawaiian]

Y2 already debunked this defense.  If having one true champion were the goal, then have one weight class would be proper set up.

 

 

The above thought is a ignorant one in which your arguing for the sake of arguing and,

I would say your case has been the one debunked because the system being used currently is the one I favor, and your the ones  fighting for a change! ;D I also would like to see team state continued for sure and seeded if possible!

[KarlHungus]

 

The above thought is a ignorant one in which your arguing for the sake of arguing and,

I would say your case has been the one debunked because the system being used currently is the one I favor, and your the ones  fighting for a change! ;D I also would like to see team state continued for sure and seeded if possible!

 

It is not the current format that has been debunked,  It is your short sighted contention that an individual classed system would "water down" the accomplishment of making it to state and how that idea is somehow bad for wrestling in Indiana but right for the majority of the country.

[KarlHungus]

This was a topic about the importance of saving team state.  I think that we should get back to that topic as I would say it is the most important issue for wrestling in our state at this time

 

I think that dog has already hunted.  The team state series will be a thing of the past.  I would say that increasing participation at all schools and consequently increasing attendance and revenue is the most important issue for wrestling at this time.

[Big Hawaiian]

I'm done fellas I think I've made my point your fight now is with IHSAA,lol

[KarlHungus]

 

The above thought is a ignorant one in which your arguing for the sake of arguing and,

 

 

No it is not....It is the logical extension of your argument that classing waters down competition and how that is bad for wrestling.  Weight CLASSES are just another type of classification.  Therefore if classing kids based on the size of school is bad for wrestling, then classing kids by size is bad for wrestling if one follows your line of thinking.

[KarlHungus]

 

The weight class argument has been used on here before, and I canot see how some buy into this argument.  Its the nature of our sport, it obviously needs weight classes this is a bogus argument.

 

 

It didn't use to be the nature of our sport.  The first olympic games had one weight class.  Therefore it becomes a valid argument.

[Big Hawaiian]

No it is not....It is the logical extension of your argument that classing waters down competition and how that is bad for wrestling.  Weight CLASSES are just another type of classification.  Therefore if classing kids based on the size of school is bad for wrestling, then classing kids by size is bad for wrestling if one follows your line of thinking.

 

The size of the school in a man on man match gives no advantage to anyone, but the physical size(weight) of one wrestler verses another certainly does, now quit your making a mockery of yourself and this arguement! ;D

[hammer]

Y2  I agree that is a good thing, and I do see the merit in some of your points on the class system.  I just personally dont feel that it is best for the intgerity of the sport.  If we class it, all that means is that making it to state is less of an accomplishment.  We have had eight state qualifiers in the history of our school.  If it were classed I legitly believe that we would have had 8 in the last two seasons, I just dont think that is good for our sport.  It makes a great accomplishment become something that goes to just average/ above average wrestlers.  I think that advancing four to the semi-state has watered the semi-state down, and has made advancing out of regionals a much less impresive feat.  I think that being a "semi-stater" has lost some of its luster.  I think that at the semi-state that is exceptable, but not for the state finals, its for the best of the best, that is the point of it.  

The weight class argument has been used on here before, and I canot see how some buy into this argument.  Its the nature of our sport, it obviously needs weight classes this is a bogus argument.

 

Y2 I didn't see an answer to my earlier  question- which do you think gives us a better idea of the true team champion a 14 man roster vs another 14 man roster, or the team that can produce the 5 best wrestlers?  If its the best 5 wrestlers, then why waist time on the kids who are not ever going to be a state caliber wretler?

 

Since having more state qualifiers waters down the sport, why don't we return to when only the champion advances at each level.  Then we won't have to have a regional runner up win state, since he must not be a true champion.

[Big Hawaiian]

Hey whats up, I lost my cool points for my opinion on this subject huh,lol

[Y2CJ41]

Y2  I agree that is a good thing, and I do see the merit in some of your points on the class system.  I just personally dont feel that it is best for the intgerity of the sport.  If we class it, all that means is that making it to state is less of an accomplishment. 

It is amazing that 40+ states don't have integrity in wrestling.  The loss of "integrity" in wrestling in Ohio really has hurt the sport over there.  Boy look at what it did for wrestling in Michigan where teams the size of Garrett get 50 kids out every year.  Boy oh boy, I will sacrifice this "integrity" we have to be able to get 40 kids out every year.

 

We have had eight state qualifiers in the history of our school.  If it were classed I legitly believe that we would have had 8 in the last two seasons, I just dont think that is good for our sport. 

You would have three for sure, Richards and Hamilton twice.  Any others were on the bubble at best.  You only had 7 semi-state qualifiers, a very, very, very few number of regional qualifiers in a single class system would qualify for state in a two class system. 

 

It makes a great accomplishment become something that goes to just average/ above average wrestlers.  I think that advancing four to the semi-state has watered the semi-state down, and has made advancing out of regionals a much less impresive feat.  I think that being a "semi-stater" has lost some of its luster.  I think that at the semi-state that is exceptable, but not for the state finals, its for the best of the best, that is the point of it. 

So you don't think making it to state would be a great accomplishment if there were two classes?  I take it you don't think it is a great accomplishment for a kid to go to state in any of the 40+ states that are classed huh?  That is a pretty bold statement.

 

So you think the top 10% of the wrestlers in Indiana are just average?  Wow!  Right now 5.1% of the varsity wrestlers in the state qualify for state. We allow the lowest percentage of state qualifiers in the NATION.  Even California allows 5.5% of the varsity wrestlers in the state to qualify for the state finals.

 

Just two years ago why did Illinois coaches, yes the COACHES, vote to add another class?  What do they know that we don't know?  Why on earth would they want to water down their state tournament even more? 

 

The weight class argument has been used on here before, and I canot see how some buy into this argument.  Its the nature of our sport, it obviously needs weight classes this is a bogus argument.

If you want a truer individual state championship you should be a heavy advocate of less weight classes.  Don't you think having 14 champions is a little too many, why not 10 or 7?  Wouldn't that make it more of an accomplishment and add meaning to being a state champion?  Isn't it more meaningful to be a state champion in golf than it is in wrestling?

 

Y2 I didn't see an answer to my earlier  question- which do you think gives us a better idea of the true team champion a 14 man roster vs another 14 man roster, or the team that can produce the 5 best wrestlers?  If its the best 5 wrestlers, then why waist time on the kids who are not ever going to be a state caliber wretler?

As it is now, my team has a greater shot of winning with producing 5 studs than finding 14 kids that are perfectly into a wrestling lineup.  I feel that my opinion is in the strong majority too. 

 

[Y2CJ41]

May be you have something there Y2. I found this online- "When Pierre de Coubertin resurrected the Olympic Games in 1896 after a 1,500-year hiatus, officials tried to connect to the ancient past by introducing upper-torso-restricted Greco-Roman wrestling as an event. There was one unlimited weight class, but that didn't stop an agile 5-foot-4 German named Carl Schumann from winning the gold. He also won three golds in gymnastics." ;D

See that is proof the little guy can win the big one.  Heck he wasn't the best in his state, but the best in the whole world!

[Y2CJ41]

Y2, Karl & Info,

 

I think you've mistaken our state wrestling tournaments as your local feel good everybody gets a trophy little league! But most all little leagues EVEN HAVE ONE CHAMPION  at the end of their season. Heck why not have a state champ for each class of  Freshman, Sophmores, Junior, & Senior wrestlers? I'm sure that would appeal to alot of kids to come wrestle because their odds just got much better to be a state champ. As I said before I think it only waters down the titles and raises more questions and debate as to whos the true state champs, and not just short term because you would ALWAYS have multiple champs per weight class and more than one team champ! Just my opinion....

Wow you know I went to the Ohio wrestling website and that is exactly what they called their state tournament, "The Ohio Give Everyone a Ribbon Wrestling Tournament."  I guess in football they just give everyone a ribbon too.  Boy that sport is sure struggling by giving everyone a ribbon.

[Smooth34]

Seems from what I've been reading, most people want to keep Team State and are very open to adding a second class for the Team tournament.  However, the split seems to be whether or not to also class the individual tournament. 

 

I don't think people are going to change their opinion.  In fact, I think it actually makes people more entrenched.

[Y2CJ41]

Y2, I'm at a cross roads. For a while I've read your posts about classing state and how Garrett and other small schools are at a disadvantage because they just don't have the numbers to compete with larger schools.

 

I have never liked this argument. Being a young minded person, I may be a bit naive due to a lack of experience I have, but I say build your program. Since I was young the thing I desired most was to take a team and build it to the likes of Mishawaka. I talked to a group of coaches awhile ago about what they felt was important in building a strong program. One of the top things they stated was a strong feeder program. I have thought this through over the last year and understand the amount of work and time that is required.

 

Starting with the elementary students, if you got three kids in 4th, 5th, and 6th grade (9 total) to join a club wrestling team by the time they reach middle school they will have a solid foundation. I also understand by the time the years get to middle school half or more will drop off, however I believe if you play your cards right, the number of kids in the elementary program will grow as well.

 

Creating a foundation and getting kids interested at a young age will help build a program. I look at Jimtown High School, they have a very respectable program and Coach Kern does a heck of a job getting kids involved. These kids start young and by the time they are in middle school they are solid wrestlers ready to make a jump from middle school to high school. A side note, look for Jimtown to have a very good team for some time to come.

 

It has been because of this mindset I have disagreed with you on classing the individual tournament. However, since the topic of keeping team state in place came up I've thought more about the growth of wrestling. I believe classing the team portion would give Indiana growth in wrestling and would still allow us to have a tough individual series as well. I also began to think about classing the individual side of wrestling in Indiana.

I don't disagree with you one bit.  I know our program has benefited from our middle school allowing 5th graders to wrestle.  An extra year of "free" wrestling(not club) helps get kids more experience.  I hope that our program will also benefit from the youth club that was restarted about four years ago in the near future also... time will only tell.

 

The one thing I will contend is doing that at smaller schools is not as easy.  Go peak in on Jimtown's youth program and see who is running their practices.  It is the same guy running middle school practices... and the same guy(s) doing it at the high school too.  I have read a small school coach's Facebook this week saying he has high school practice until 5:30 then from 6-8 youth practices.  That makes for a long day!  Basically what I am getting at is in a smaller town/school, the support system of former wrestlers and coaches is not as big.  It is a lot harder to find a youth wrestling coach that is to find a youth baseball or football coach.  Half the dads have played football or baseball or at least know a little about those sports to be able to coach it.

 

Three of the top teams in the US in wrestling have classed individual tournaments. Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Iowa are all classed and it would be hard to find someone to argue against their dominance compared to other states in the sport of wrestling. Many of the top teams in each class still face off during the season and many of the top wrestlers still face off on the weekends during tournaments. These states make it work and turn out wrestlers every year that get recruited by D1 colleges.

Can you imagine the hype and excitement for a big dual between a good small and big school?  For instance Garrett vs. Carroll with state placers in different classes duking it out?  If you follow football you know there is always hype when two ranked teams in different classes go at it.

 

Today I will say I would welcome class wrestling. I believe it would get more kids out for multiple reasons, Y2 has touched on a couple already.  The one I think would be the biggest attractor is wrestlers would have more success in the state tournament. Yes, some weights in particular classes would be somewhat watered down, but with time more wrestlers would build more competition in each class. With success come more guys wanting to be apart of success, lets face it success is contagious. You would have three times the opportunities to place at state.

 

Y2, congrats, I'm a believer.

 

My only disagreement, and I'm not sure its a disagreement is that I would like to see team state stay in place. I feel many wrestlers join the team to be apart of the camaraderie that a team provides. I think without the team aspect, some school's practices would become a club of sorts where wrestlers only care about themselves and the wrestlers with the lesser skill set would get left out or behind. This would create a survival of the fittest environment. With the team, each member is worried about helping the team by building the weaker wrestlers up and helping where they can.

Welcome to the club, your membership card is in the mail.  It includes such great things as 99 cent beverages at McDonalds and a strand of my hair so you can clone me.

 

As for team state, I like it, but honestly as it is now it has very little affect on how I coach or the team I coach.  We lost our sectional by eight points last year and the week of regional our kids were talking about how they were kinda glad we didn't win and have to go get sanded by Yorktown or Bellmont.  While it would have been a great experience, even our kids knew that making up 30+ points against Yorktown was nearly impossible.  Our kids know who the best teams are and who we have to go through to get to the team state finals.  They are smart enough to figure out that it would have had to take quite a miracle for us to beat Yorktown.

[Y2CJ41]

Seems from what I've been reading, most people want to keep Team State and are very open to adding a second class for the Team tournament.  However, the split seems to be whether or not to also class the individual tournament. 

 

I don't think people are going to change their opinion.  In fact, I think it actually makes people more entrenched.

I would contend there are over 200 coaches/schools that will only support a team state tournament if it is classed.  As it currently is, most coaches don't care about it... and it looks like the fans have the same view.

[ENoblewrestling]

Y2 here are a few more holes in your argument.

1. The watering down of the tourny- earlier I stated that in a two class system I would have had eight state qualifiers over the last two years.  Why would this not be the case?  If a kid from a small school can make it to semi-state or in some cases even regionals when taking on superior big school competion, then I would find it a fairly logical assumption that they would be able to make it to state if you cut out the half that they are unable to compete against.  In a tournament filled with inferior competion I would. Think that a small school kid who makes it to semi-state now would obviosly be able to make it to state in a classed system.  I think that this is a resonable assumption.

 

2. You state that finding five studs would be easier than finding a team of fourteen studs when asked about the best way to find a team champion.  First of that still doesn't answer the intended question of what is the best way to determine a team champion.  If you really believe that the team that contains the best individuals is the bewst team then why didn't Griffith ever win the team state competion?  I also thought that you want what's best for Indiana wrestling not just Garrett High School. You guys would also be competive in a classed team tournament right away.  You almost make it to regionals as is, which despite what you may believe is a great accomplishment.  I know we would be happy to win a sectional, not happy that we don't have to wrestle team regionals as you earlier stated your team felt last year.

 

3. Why didn't you state your feelings about how unimportant a classed team state would be at the IHSWCa meeting?  Everyone who was there voted and ageeed that a classed team state was what we wanted. Why didn't you say that you think the old system is better there?  Also if we had discussed classing the indivdual tourny I really doubt we would have had 100 percent aggreement like we did on classing the team tournament.

 

4. The childish argument that if we want a one class tourny to determine a true champion is the same as wanting no weight classes.  Using that same logic couldn't I argue to those in favor of class wrestling, why don't we have thousands of weight classes due to the advantage of a wrestlers weight? Isn't it unfair for a 141 lbs. Wrestler to wrestle a 145 lbs wrestler?  We need a 141 lbs weight class.  Its the same logic as what you use to argue against the one class tournament, and both are obviously ridiculous.  Yet you acctually have people on here who back that argument. It makes your side look childish and weak.

[DuneFan]

The only reason the attendance was down at team state last year was because it

was a foregone co nclussion that Mishawaka was going to win it.  The year before, when Crown

Point won it, it was up for grabs and the place was packed.  The team state in 2011 will be

up for grabs, as there isn't going to be such a dominant team as there was last year, so the

gym at Center Grove should be packed again.