Nick Lee Indiana Goat?

[ReformedPoster]

2 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Typically in GOAT discussion past matches are brought up that are old. MJ vs Lebron. 

 

In all honesty, I think Howe is the GOAT. But it is hard to argue because Micic has a world medal.

I look at the totality of their careers, not just senior freestyle.

 

This is my opinion:

HS GOAT - Mendez

NCAA GOAT - Nick Lee

Freestyle GOAT - Humphrey

 

Based on performance at all 3 levels, my Indiana GOAT at the moment is Andrew Howe.  That will change if Nick Lee can get past Yianni and gets on the podium at worlds.  If he gets past yianni and then doesn't medal, then it doesn't move the needle for me too much.

 

This list can and likely will change over time and some of these younger guys come up through the ranks.

 

I tend to give more weight to folkstyle since that is the "American" style that we all grew up with and it is where the majority of our focus and training is.  There are so many factors that come into play when talking worlds/Olympics.  This biggest is the draw.  If you get a favorable draw you can have a relatively easy path to a medal, especially since they give two bronze medals at worlds and Olympics.  I don't fault guys like Micic and Myles Amine who choose to represent other countries.  They do what they need to do to give them the best opportunity to be on the world stage.  But nobody considers Myles Amine as the Michigan GOAT just because he has an Olympic bronze medal.  Same thing for Micic, IMO.

 

[brickfor6]

I would say that my GOAT based upon all 3 levels would either be Howe or Angel. Angel having a slight edge because he was 5th at worlds. I can't put Nick Lee at the top for all 3 levels. He IS my NCAA GOAT. He's not the HS GOAT, and he's not the Freestyle GOAT. I am not sure if Nick Lee has wrestled internationally yet. It's hard to have that conversation. 

 

HS GOAT: ANGEL

NCAA GOAT: Nick Lee

Freestyle GOAT: Micic 

 

I hope Jesse is the NCAA and Freestyle GOAT in the future. 

 

I am pretty sure that Michigan only has 1 other Freestyle Olympic medalist and that was in 1924. Now Steve Fraser is from Michigan and he was the first ever Greco Olympic Gold medalist. Hard to pass that up. 

[igotcaught]

HS GOAT has to be Jason Tsirtsis. 3 years without getting scored on offensively, and the only high school wrestler in Indiana history to beat a D1 NCAA Champion while still in high school. Jason was multiple levels above everyone in the country his senior year, destroying guys like zain retherford. I'm pretty sure Jason manhandled the #2 kid in the country at his weight class by 14 points at the Dapper Dan too. We've seen many guys win Fargo, Super 32, make a world team, win 4 state titles, etc. But we have never seen anyone match the level of dominance Jason had as a senior in high school. That ceiling of skill is yet to be reached by any other high schooler. The highest ceiling we have seen was when Jason controlled Darrion Caldwell. Until someone matches that, HS GOAT belongs to Jason.

[ReformedPoster]

2 hours ago, igotcaught said:

HS GOAT has to be Jason Tsirtsis. 3 years without getting scored on offensively, and the only high school wrestler in Indiana history to beat a D1 NCAA Champion while still in high school. Jason was multiple levels above everyone in the country his senior year, destroying guys like zain retherford. I'm pretty sure Jason manhandled the #2 kid in the country at his weight class by 14 points at the Dapper Dan too. We've seen many guys win Fargo, Super 32, make a world team, win 4 state titles, etc. But we have never seen anyone match the level of dominance Jason had as a senior in high school. That ceiling of skill is yet to be reached by any other high schooler. The highest ceiling we have seen was when Jason controlled Darrion Caldwell. Until someone matches that, HS GOAT belongs to Jason.

Clearly that was a signature win.  But it also wasn't the same Caldwell that beat Metcalf.  This was a freestyle match and clearly Caldwell wasn't a seasoned freestyler.  

[Jayruss]

8 hours ago, igotcaught said:

HS GOAT has to be Jason Tsirtsis. 3 years without getting scored on offensively, and the only high school wrestler in Indiana history to beat a D1 NCAA Champion while still in high school. Jason was multiple levels above everyone in the country his senior year, destroying guys like zain retherford. I'm pretty sure Jason manhandled the #2 kid in the country at his weight class by 14 points at the Dapper Dan too. We've seen many guys win Fargo, Super 32, make a world team, win 4 state titles, etc. But we have never seen anyone match the level of dominance Jason had as a senior in high school. That ceiling of skill is yet to be reached by any other high schooler. The highest ceiling we have seen was when Jason controlled Darrion Caldwell. Until someone matches that, HS GOAT belongs to Jason.

Valid argument, and I feel like T-shirts is Mendez in disguise or vice versa. Jason probably has the best high school resume.

[navy80]

High School GOAT: Jason Tsirtsis with a trail of GOATS behind him with Alex Tsirtsis, Blake Maurer (1 loss), and Jesse Mendez (1 loss)

 

NCAA GOAT: Nick Lee (two ncaa titles)

 

FREESTYLE GOAT: 

 

Reece Humphrey's stats per Indianamat

World
2015 61kg Senior Freestyle World Championship 12th
2013 60kg Senior Freestyle World Championship 8th
2011 60kg Senior Freestyle World Championship 9th
2010 60kg University Freestyle World Championship 3rd
2008 60kg University Freestyle World Championship 2nd

 

Micic's stats per Indianamat

World
2022 57kg Senior Freestyle World Championship 3rd
2021 57kg Olympic Freestyle Championship 14th
2019 57kg Senior Freestyle World Championship 5th
2015 55kg Junior/20U Freestyle World Championship 3rd
2013 54kg Cadet/17U Freestyle World Championship 15th

[SIACfan]

2 hours ago, navy80 said:

High School GOAT: Jason Tsirtsis with a trail of GOATS behind him with Alex Tsirtsis, Blake Maurer (1 loss), and Jesse Mendez (1 loss)

 

 

How can you give a list for Indiana HS GOAT and not at least include CJ Red (183-0) in that discussion?

[brickfor6]

These 2 were incredible along with the list we are putting out. Alex Tsirtsis 236-0 record will never be broken. 

[Justin Ratliff]

So many GOATs.  Indiana is blessed to have a herd of GOATs!

[maligned]

On 5/4/2023 at 8:52 AM, ReformedPoster said:

We will agree to disagree.  I think he caught lightning in a bottle to medal at worlds.  He also looked terrible at the olympics.  

The "lightning in a bottle" argument would make sense if he hadn't gotten 5th in 2019--an Olympic qualifying year where everyone sends their absolute best and prepares to an Olympic level . That year he blitzed 3 opponents and lost 5-4 and 4-3 to two multiple-time world medalists. 

When he won bronze last year, he destroyed a previous world medalist in the quarters and then in the bronze match he crushed Andreu of Cuba, who beat Gilman and Darian Cruz at the previous two Pan Am championships.

[brickfor6]

8 minutes ago, maligned said:

The "lightning in a bottle" argument would make sense if he hadn't gotten 5th in 2019--an Olympic qualifying year where everyone sends their absolute best and prepares to an Olympic level . That year he blitzed 3 opponents and lost 5-4 and 4-3 to two multiple-time world medalists. 

When he won bronze last year, he destroyed a previous world medalist in the quarters and then in the bronze match he crushed Andreu of Cuba, who beat Gilman and Darian Cruz at the previous two Pan Am championships.

[Joshua Olsen]

Sarah Hildebrandt has a strong argument with a bronze medal at the Olympics, 2 World silvers, and a World bronze.

[brickfor6]

16 minutes ago, Joshua Olsen said:

Sarah Hildebrandt has a strong argument with a bronze medal at the Olympics, 2 World silvers, and a World bronze.

Female GOAT.

[SWINfan]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:04 AM, GenHeavyHandz said:

Only if we allow you to determine the criteria.  Middle school career trumps elementary.  High School trumps middle school.  College trumps high school.  The Olympics trump college. That's the ultimate goal.  And 3 world  senior teams?  I hate Ohio State but Humphreys is the overall Indiana GOAT.  

Holy crap, we agree on something!  

[SWINfan]

On 5/3/2023 at 1:33 PM, ReformedPoster said:

I don't think so.  I think it is unlikely he would have made the US team.  Props to him for doing whatever he could to get to worlds.  he made the most of it, but I think he's a good ways down the ladder in the US.  IMO, that works against him.

That's my thing.  No disrespect to Micic, but he made the Worlds doing an end around of sorts.  There is little to indicate he makes the World team wrestling for the US.  

That doesn't discount what he did, but it has to be factored in.  I don't know how many times they mentioned Myles Amine being an Olympic medalist.  Great accomplishment, but he wouldn't have even been top 3 in the NLWC room.  You have to recognize that and account for it accordingly.  Kudos for winning the medals, that's awesome and should be recognized.  But to go into the best ever discussion, I find it hard to be in the discussion for best all-time status, using World's/Olympics, when you weren't likely the best from your country.  

[GenHeavyHandz]

6 hours ago, Joshua Olsen said:

Sarah Hildebrandt has a strong argument with a bronze medal at the Olympics, 2 World silvers, and a World bronze.

I concur. Ol' Hildy is definitely in the discussion.  I'm biased I think you changed my mind.  Hildy is the GOAT!

[navy80]

On 5/5/2023 at 8:51 AM, SIACfan said:

 

How can you give a list for Indiana HS GOAT and not at least include CJ Red (183-0) in that discussion?

Dang... I did forget him! I would add him 100%

[Ahawkeye]

Nick just keeps getting better, I think his limit is his body, obviously his mind is in the right place hopefully his body can keep up! 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Ahawkeye

[GenHeavyHandz]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:44 PM, SWINfan said:

That's my thing.  No disrespect to Micic, but he made the Worlds doing an end around of sorts.  There is little to indicate he makes the World team wrestling for the US.  

That doesn't discount what he did, but it has to be factored in.  I don't know how many times they mentioned Myles Amine being an Olympic medalist.  Great accomplishment, but he wouldn't have even been top 3 in the NLWC room.  You have to recognize that and account for it accordingly.  Kudos for winning the medals, that's awesome and should be recognized.  But to go into the best ever discussion, I find it hard to be in the discussion for best all-time status, using World's/Olympics, when you weren't likely the best from your country.  

That's because you support Mater Dei so you want the criteria to favor your wrestler.  You don't determine the rules. The World .knows Amine.  There is a World beyond Evansville.  Olympic Medals count to everyone.  Ask a random kid would you like to win 2 NCAA Championships or a World Medal as an adult? You already know the answer.

[ReformedPoster]

39 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

That's because you support Mater Dei so you want the criteria to favor your wrestler.  You don't determine the rules. The World .knows Amine.  There is a World beyond Evansville.  Olympic Medals count to everyone.  Ask a random kid would you like to win 2 NCAA Championships or a World Medal as an adult? You already know the answer.

Who does make the rules for these hypothetical discussions??  How many people in Michigan consider Myles Amine the Michigan GOAT?

 

For me, it has nothing to do with what high school somebody supports.  I'm sure we all agree that Micic is an outstanding wrestler and a worthy candidate for the Indiana GOAT.  But we all have different criteria.  If Kyle Dake or David Taylor or Andrew Howe could have found a loophole to allow them to compete for another country and get around the roadblock that was Jordan Burroughs I'm sure they would have taken it.  But IMO, it wouldn't be the same as going through that roadblock like Dake did this past olympic trials.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think there are more than a handful of people outside of IN that think Micic would be the US world team rep if he chose to try and rep the US.

[GenHeavyHandz]

8 hours ago, ReformedPoster said:

Who does make the rules for these hypothetical discussions??  How many people in Michigan consider Myles Amine the Michigan GOAT?

 

For me, it has nothing to do with what high school somebody supports.  I'm sure we all agree that Micic is an outstanding wrestler and a worthy candidate for the Indiana GOAT.  But we all have different criteria.  If Kyle Dake or David Taylor or Andrew Howe could have found a loophole to allow them to compete for another country and get around the roadblock that was Jordan Burroughs I'm sure they would have taken it.  But IMO, it wouldn't be the same as going through that roadblock like Dake did this past olympic trials.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think there are more than a handful of people outside of IN that think Micic would be the US world team rep if he chose to try and rep the US.

Blah, Blah, Blah....It's Olympic.  Don't be upset you started the spelling and grammar policing.  Who cares what your opinion is.  I said Olympics. So to me it's Hildy. Case closed over here.  And I don't buy you aren't biased and others aren't either.   Now go watch the Evansville Aces.

[Ahawkeye]

Low blow, nobody watches the Aces.

[maligned]

19 hours ago, ReformedPoster said:

For what it's worth, I don't think there are more than a handful of people outside of IN that think Micic would be the US world team rep if he chose to try and rep the US.

Nobody said that. He wouldn't beat Gilman. 

 

Truth be told: my favorite Indiana wrestler to watch and to cheer for post-high school was definitely Hump. He was so freaking exciting. I lived and died with all his Trials and Worlds matches every year--more than I care to admit. And I love his attitude and persona and all of it.

 

But I also pride myself on being someone that can see things objectively and consider all the information available in a nuanced way. Hump never really came very close to medaling. He had some exciting matches with top-tier guys, but he was only just inside the top 10 at Worlds at his apex, in both placement and performance. 

 

True. Howe and Micic didn't get our national team spots behind perennial medal-winners and gold-medal contenders. But do we disqualify them from the discussion of having been better in the world context because one of the 3 or 4 guys in the world better than them were from their own country? Maybe for a lot of people, the answer is yes. For me, it's a tough one.

[brickfor6]

17 minutes ago, maligned said:

Nobody said that. He wouldn't beat Gilman. 

 

Truth be told: my favorite Indiana wrestler to watch and to cheer for post-high school was definitely Hump. He was so freaking exciting. I lived and died with all his Trials and Worlds matches every year--more than I care to admit. And I love his attitude and persona and all of it.

 

But I also pride myself on being someone that can see things objectively and consider all the information available in a nuanced way. Hump never really came very close to medaling. He had some exciting matches with top-tier guys, but he was only just inside the top 10 at Worlds at his apex, in both placement and performance. 

 

True. Howe and Micic didn't get our national team spots behind perennial medal-winners and gold-medal contenders. But do we disqualify them from the discussion of having been better in the world context because one of the 3 or 4 guys in the world better than them were from their own country? Maybe for a lot of people, the answer is yes. For me, it's a tough one.

My thing is....it is really hard to place at worlds no matter what country you do it for. 

 

Also I would like to mention Zavur Uguev...2x world champ, and Olympic champ. In 2019, Uguev was bronze at the European games, Micic was 2nd. I am not saying that this makes him better than him, Micic lost to him by 2 in 2018. Gilman has also lost to him by 2. I think the match between Gilman and Micic is closer than everyone thinks. 

 

And think about this for a minute. Micic's spot on the Serbian team is a lock. Why would he want to deal with the process of making the USA team.

 

If he would have won a world title, would everyone still be like "NoPe DoEsN't CoUnT" Because he didn't do it for the USA... HE HAS A WORLD MEDAL: That is hard to do. Humphrey didn't get that done when he was on the US world team. Angel didn't get it done. No one (male) in the recent years has done that. Yes Howe was behind some guys, but who is to say he would have came back with a medal? Doesn't matter USA or Not...You are wrestling at the world championships. Once Nick Lee comes back with a world medal, then we can start the GOAT Talk, but for now he is still a Nittany Wildcat Lion. IMO 

 

Also the argument is about Indiana GOAT. Not whether someone would make the USA team. 

 

[ReformedPoster]

40 minutes ago, maligned said:

Nobody said that. He wouldn't beat Gilman. 

 

Truth be told: my favorite Indiana wrestler to watch and to cheer for post-high school was definitely Hump. He was so freaking exciting. I lived and died with all his Trials and Worlds matches every year--more than I care to admit. And I love his attitude and persona and all of it.

 

But I also pride myself on being someone that can see things objectively and consider all the information available in a nuanced way. Hump never really came very close to medaling. He had some exciting matches with top-tier guys, but he was only just inside the top 10 at Worlds at his apex, in both placement and performance. 

 

True. Howe and Micic didn't get our national team spots behind perennial medal-winners and gold-medal contenders. But do we disqualify them from the discussion of having been better in the world context because one of the 3 or 4 guys in the world better than them were from their own country? Maybe for a lot of people, the answer is yes. For me, it's a tough one.

It certainly doesn't disqualify them by any means, but it doesn't help their case.  At least in my opinion. 

 

It will be very interesting to see how things shake out over the next 1-2 olympic cycles.  Can Nick Lee knock of Yianni over the next two years and get a world/olympic medal?  How does Mendez progress over the next 3 college seasons and how does he do on the senior freestyle circuit?  Will Parris hang around long enough to shoot for the '28 Olympics?  How do guys like Christian Carroll do in the college ranks and beyond?  Lots of talent from Indiana, let's see how they do.