Nick Lee Indiana Goat?

[Jayruss]

I am revisiting this conversation after he US Open championship, is Nick the best ever from Indiana ?

[Ahawkeye]

If not Nick then who? A win (or couple of wins) against Yanni and I don't think there would be much of an argument otherwise at least for the modern era. But you still have an Olympic silver medalist from Bloomington that might hold that seat. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Ahawkeye

[QuinnHarris]

Reece Humphrey gets the nod for now. A world medal may change that though

[M109R]

I think Andrew Howe is right there as well . Problem was Andrew had Burroughs in his way , kind of like Parris has Gable . 

[ReformedPoster]

3 hours ago, QuinnHarris said:

Reece Humphrey gets the nod for now. A world medal may change that though

Zero NCAA titles drops him down the list

[GenHeavyHandz]

On 5/1/2023 at 9:51 AM, ReformedPoster said:

Zero NCAA titles drops him down the list

Only if we allow you to determine the criteria.  Middle school career trumps elementary.  High School trumps middle school.  College trumps high school.  The Olympics trump college. That's the ultimate goal.  And 3 world  senior teams?  I hate Ohio State but Humphreys is the overall Indiana GOAT.  

[Ahawkeye]

47 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Only if we allow you to determine the criteria.  Middle school career trumps elementary.  High School trumps middle school.  College trumps high school.  The Olympics trump college. That's the ultimate goal.  And 3 world  senior teams?  I hate Ohio State but Humphreys is the overall Indiana GOAT.  

If that's the case Olimpics trumps worlds, and so far Voliva from Bloomington is the G.O.A.T.

 

I don't think the book is even close to closed on Lee. Hump was great no argument there but if someone doesn't put Lee in front of Hump I'd say Lee is tied or hair line close.

[ReformedPoster]

6 hours ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Only if we allow you to determine the criteria.  Middle school career trumps elementary.  High School trumps middle school.  College trumps high school.  The Olympics trump college. That's the ultimate goal.  And 3 world  senior teams?  I hate Ohio State but Humphreys is the overall Indiana GOAT.  

freestyle and folkstyle are almost two different sports.  Humphrey was very good at folkstyle, but he was better at freestyle.  Which style do you give more weight to?  Lee was clearly the better folkstyle wrestler.  Lee's freestyle career isn't over yet.  if he can take out Yianni and make the world team this year then I think it is obvious who the Indiana GOAT is.

[matts]

Paris' Hodge trophy and a junior world gold are a big deal.

 

Angel's NCAA title, 4 AAs, and trip to a Senior World medal match are pretty huge, too.

 

I think it is a fun discussion between Paris, Angel, Lee, and Howe.  One can make a great case for any of these four. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by matts

[GenHeavyHandz]

1 hour ago, ReformedPoster said:

freestyle and folkstyle are almost two different sports.  Humphrey was very good at folkstyle, but he was better at freestyle.  Which style do you give more weight to?  Lee was clearly the better folkstyle wrestler.  Lee's freestyle career isn't over yet.  if he can take out Yianni and make the world team this year then I think it is obvious who the Indiana GOAT is.

I give more weight to the international styles.  I lean towards Greco because in my seasoned opinion world class Greco shows an understanding of position that can not be matched.  I lean towards the international style’s because that’s what the world is doing. And even though I was personally a beast on top: par terre or mat wrestling on top tells me nothing about who is executing the best techniques in the world.  Now I said all that to say this: I think Nick is currently top 5 p4p.  So I have him surpassing Humphrey Hump come this fall. World title seals it.

Edited May 3, 2023 by GenHeavyHandz

[ReformedPoster]

28 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

I give more weight to the international styles.  I lean towards Greco because in my seasoned opinion world class Greco shows an understanding of position that can not be matched.  I lean towards the international style’s because that’s what the world is doing. And even though I was personally a beast on top: par terre or mat wrestling on top tells me nothing about who is executing the best techniques in the world.  Now I said all that to say this: I think Nick is currently top 5 p4p.  So I have him surpassing Humphrey Hump come this fall. World title seals it.

Well, if Greco is the end all be all, then Pete Lee or David Butler should be at the top of the GOAT list for IN

[AJ]

48 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

Well, if Greco is the end all be all, then Pete Lee or David Butler should be at the top of the GOAT list for IN

woohoo   David Butler - Muncie native!!!!!!!!!

[brickfor6]

Stevan Micic has a world medal.

 

 

[maligned]

For accomplishment lists, Angel, Hump, Micic, Howe are in there. Lee's got a nice argument if he gets the world spot.

 

For apex ability in the world context, I still think Howe reached a higher level of wrestling. He was clearly a top 5 guy globally for several years but couldn't beat out Burroughs to get a couple medals. He was also our 3rd or 4th best P4P freestyler at that time. Micic can certainly argue the "apex" ability discussion because of a world medal, but he earned that in the extremely talent-reduced worlds during the post-covid olympic year. Angel got a 5th in his one worlds appearance, but he didn't make other world teams and got a fairly favorable random draw in his 5th place year. Based on national and international performances, Howe on the other hand would have been in the medal and championship discussion no matter the year or the draw in 3 or 4 competition years if not for Burroughs.

 

The current version of Parris would be very interesting to see at a Worlds too. As someone else said, he won junior worlds over Zare of Iran--a guaranteed medalist every year and recent world champ. If he rolls at World Team Trials and Steveson weren't there, other countries would consider Mason among the top several in the world heading into Worlds.

 

If Lee beats out Yianni and medals in an Olympic qualification year at the hardest weight to medal in the world--he'll be right there in terms of apex ability discussion as well.

Edited May 3, 2023 by maligned

[brickfor6]

28 minutes ago, maligned said:

Micic can certainly argue the "apex" ability discussion because of a world medal, but he earned that in the extremely talent-reduced worlds during the post-covid olympic year.

He earned the medal in 2022. I would say that the talent was much stronger in 2022 than in 2021. Only thing is that Russia was not there. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by brickfor6

[maligned]

10 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

He earned the medal in 2022. I would say that the talent was much stronger in 2022 than in 2021. Only thing is that Russia was not there. 

You're right. He got 3 very legit high-end wins with impressive scores among his results. I don't know how I forgot how great he looked. There was really only one big missing guy (arguably)

Edited May 3, 2023 by maligned

[brickfor6]

10 minutes ago, maligned said:

You're right. He got 3 very legit high-end wins with impressive scores among his results. I don't know how I forgot how great he looked. There was really only one big missing guy (arguably)

Did Micic just get the crown of GOAT? lol

[ReformedPoster]

2 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Did Micic just get the crown of GOAT? lol

I don't think so.  I think it is unlikely he would have made the US team.  Props to him for doing whatever he could to get to worlds.  he made the most of it, but I think he's a good ways down the ladder in the US.  IMO, that works against him.

[maligned]

22 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

I think he's a good ways down the ladder in the US. 

Sure about that? Before Gilman's run of 4 medals in 6 tries, we went two full cycles (8 years) with two fifths and no medals at 55/57kg.

 

Micic has a medal and a fifth in three tries. He's not Gilman, but he's also not Richards or Suriano or Ramos of a few years ago. (He's better)

[ReformedPoster]

1 hour ago, maligned said:

Sure about that? Before Gilman's run of 4 medals in 6 tries, we went two full cycles (8 years) with two fifths and no medals at 55/57kg.

 

Micic has a medal and a fifth in three tries. He's not Gilman, but he's also not Richards or Suriano or Ramos of a few years ago. (He's better)

Yep.  I don't think he beats Gilman, Suriano, Vito or a healthy Lee at 57 Kg.

[maligned]

10 minutes ago, ReformedPoster said:

Yep.  I don't think he beats Gilman, Suriano, Vito or a healthy Lee at 57 Kg.

Suriano would never medal at the world level. You have to score. Vito has to prove that he can take his big progress to a sucked down 57. And Lee will always be hurt. 

 

If I wanted the best chance at a world medal for my team and micic is still down at 57, I would absolutely take him over anyone but Gilman. 

[brickfor6]

6 hours ago, ReformedPoster said:

I don't think so.  I think it is unlikely he would have made the US team.  Props to him for doing whatever he could to get to worlds.  he made the most of it, but I think he's a good ways down the ladder in the US.  IMO, that works against him.

Sure I get that, but we are not talking about the US. We are talking about Indiana.

Btw Gilman and Micic lost to the same person at 22’ worlds, both by 5.

 

Not to mention Micic one of 3 reasons Nick Lee only has 1 state title.

Edited May 4, 2023 by brickfor6

[ReformedPoster]

16 hours ago, maligned said:

Suriano would never medal at the world level. You have to score. Vito has to prove that he can take his big progress to a sucked down 57. And Lee will always be hurt. 

 

If I wanted the best chance at a world medal for my team and micic is still down at 57, I would absolutely take him over anyone but Gilman. 

We will agree to disagree.  I think he caught lightning in a bottle to medal at worlds.  He also looked terrible at the olympics.  

 

FWIW, I agree with you about Vito.  He's take a huge leap this year, but can he maintain that level when he has to suck down to 57?

[ReformedPoster]

12 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Sure I get that, but we are not talking about the US. We are talking about Indiana.

Btw Gilman and Micic lost to the same person at 22’ worlds, both by 5.

 

Not to mention Micic one of 3 reasons Nick Lee only has 1 state title.

if we are going to use a decade old match where a freshman lost to a senior, then we need to put Humphrey over Howe as well.

[brickfor6]

Just now, ReformedPoster said:

if we are going to use a decade old match where a freshman lost to a senior, then we need to put Humphrey over Howe as well.

Typically in GOAT discussion past matches are brought up that are old. MJ vs Lebron. 

 

In all honesty, I think Howe is the GOAT. But it is hard to argue because Micic has a world medal.