Nick Lee Indiana Goat?

[BrodyHardcastle]

1. Hildebrandt 

2. Micic 

3.  Escobedo

4. Howe

5.  Humphrey

6.  Lee ( I think Nick can shoot up to top 2 in the next 2-3 years.)

7. J T-shirts

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by BrodyHardcastle

[ReformedPoster]

4 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

My thing is....it is really hard to place at worlds no matter what country you do it for. 

 

Also I would like to mention Zavur Uguev...2x world champ, and Olympic champ. In 2019, Uguev was bronze at the European games, Micic was 2nd. I am not saying that this makes him better than him, Micic lost to him by 2 in 2018. Gilman has also lost to him by 2. I think the match between Gilman and Micic is closer than everyone thinks. 

 

And think about this for a minute. Micic's spot on the Serbian team is a lock. Why would he want to deal with the process of making the USA team.

 

If he would have won a world title, would everyone still be like "NoPe DoEsN't CoUnT" Because he didn't do it for the USA... HE HAS A WORLD MEDAL: That is hard to do. Humphrey didn't get that done when he was on the US world team. Angel didn't get it done. No one (male) in the recent years has done that. Yes Howe was behind some guys, but who is to say he would have came back with a medal? Doesn't matter USA or Not...You are wrestling at the world championships. Once Nick Lee comes back with a world medal, then we can start the GOAT Talk, but for now he is still a Nittany Wildcat Lion. IMO 

 

Also the argument is about Indiana GOAT. Not whether someone would make the USA team. 

 

I agree with you that a world medal is a feather in Micic's cap.  He did what he needed to do to get on that stage and capitalized on his opportunity.  That's awesome! 

 

I just think that in the totality of somebody's career, if you want to be considered the GOAT then you have to do it at all levels.  High School(minimum state champ), College(minimum National Champ), International(minimum sr world/olympic medal).  Right now we have a bunch of guys that have accomplished 2 of the 3.  Angel, Howe, Nick Lee, Parris, Micic.  IMO those are your 5 candidates for the IN GOAT at this time.  Of that group, only Lee and Parris have a chance to still get that 3rd milestone.  Parris does have a Jr world title, so that would tip the scales in his favor if neither Lee nor Parris get that sr world/olympic medal

 

 

[Silence Dogood]

11 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Also I would like to mention Zavur Uguev

Can't be the Indiana GOAT - he's from Russia. 

[SIACfan]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:55 AM, BrodyHardcastle said:

1. Hildebrandt 

2. Micic 

3.  Escobedo

4. Howe

5.  Humphrey

6.  Lee ( I think Nick can shoot up to top 2 in the next 2-3 years.)

7. J T-shirts

 

 

 

 

If you have Sarah as the Indiana Wrestling GOAT, why doesn't Kayla Miracle at least crack your top 7?

 

Kayla has (2) world siver medals while Sarah has (2) world sivers, (1) world bronze & (1) olympic bronze.

[BrodyHardcastle]

10 hours ago, SIACfan said:

 

If you have Sarah as the Indiana Wrestling GOAT, why doesn't Kayla Miracle at least crack your top 7?

 

Kayla has (2) world siver medals while Sarah has (2) world sivers, (1) world bronze & (1) olympic bronze.

Good point, idk why I forgot about her she’s definitely up there.

[SunDevils]

Best ever - focused strictly on high school and college accolades since the styles are the same:

 

Wrestler/Avg High School Placement/ Avg College Placement/Combined Total

Andrew Howe, 1.25, 2, 3.25

Nick Lee, 2, 3, 4

Angel Escebedo, 1, 3.25, 4.25

Jason Tsirtsis, 1, 5*, 6

Mason Parris, 1.5, 4.25*, 5.75

Reece Humphrey, 4*, 5.75*, 9.75

Chad Red, 1, 7.5*, 8.5

Stevan Micic , 2, 4.5*, 6.5

 

*years they were strictly a qualifier for NCAA's or state it is assumed a place of 9th.  

 

Like golf the lower the number the better. Simply following this logic: 1) Andrew Howe; 2) Nick Lee; 3) Angel Escebedo; 4) Mason Parris; and 5) Jason Tsirtsis.

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by SunDevils
Stevan Micic was missing

[brickfor6]

1 hour ago, SunDevils said:

Best ever - focused strictly on high school and college accolades since the styles are the same:

 

Wrestler/Avg High School Placement/ Avg College Placement/Combined Total

Andrew Howe, 1.25, 2, 3.25

Nick Lee, 2, 3, 4

Angel Escebedo, 1, 3.25, 4.25

Jason Tsirtsis, 1, 5*, 6

Mason Parris, 1.5, 4.25*, 5.75

Reece Humphrey, 4*, 5.75*, 9.75

Chad Red, 1, 7.5*, 8.5

 

*years they were strictly a qualifier for NCAA's or state it is assumed a place of 9th.  

 

Like golf the lower the number the better. Simply following this logic: 1) Andrew Howe; 2) Nick Lee; 3) Angel Escebedo; 4) Mason Parris; and 5) Jason Tsirtsis 

 

Why isn't Micic on your list? Also his score at the world championship is better than everyone on the list, can you configure in world placement to this? 

 

[brickfor6]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:58 AM, ReformedPoster said:

I agree with you that a world medal is a feather in Micic's cap.  He did what he needed to do to get on that stage and capitalized on his opportunity.  That's awesome! 

 

I just think that in the totality of somebody's career, if you want to be considered the GOAT then you have to do it at all levels.  High School(minimum state champ), College(minimum National Champ), International(minimum sr world/olympic medal).  Right now we have a bunch of guys that have accomplished 2 of the 3.  Angel, Howe, Nick Lee, Parris, Micic.  IMO those are your 5 candidates for the IN GOAT at this time.  Of that group, only Lee and Parris have a chance to still get that 3rd milestone.  Parris does have a Jr world title, so that would tip the scales in his favor if neither Lee nor Parris get that sr world/olympic medal

 

 

With Parris you can say the same thing about him. If Gable would have wrestled would he have been a national champion? The answer is no. Micic is getting roasted for not taking the US route. Parris won NCAA without Gable. 

[SIACfan]

39 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

With Parris you can say the same thing about him. If Gable would have wrestled would he have been a national champion? The answer is no. Micic is getting roasted for not taking the US route. Parris won NCAA without Gable. 

 

I don't think Micic is being roasted for choosing to wrestle for Serbia. Some are just pointing out that he likely would not have a world medal if he had to make the US team. And that Howe would likely have world medals if he could have wrestled for another country (like Serbia).

 

Plus, the Micic & Parris situations are different. Parris didn't choose to wrestle in a different college division or weight class to avoid Gable. It was Gable's choice to not wrestle. Would you use that comparison if Gable had simply run out of eligibility?

[brickfor6]

7 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

I don't think Micic is being roasted for choosing to wrestle for Serbia. Some are just pointing out that he likely would not have a world medal if he had to make the US team. And that Howe would likely have world medals if he could have wrestled for another country (like Serbia).

 

Plus, the Micic & Parris situations are different. Parris didn't choose to wrestle in a different college division or weight class to avoid Gable. It was Gable's choice to not wrestle. Would you use that comparison if Gable had simply run out of eligibility?

No, the post said that in college you should be a minimum national champion, and that Micic can only accomplish 2 of 3 tiers. 

 

No I would not use that comparison, but would you use the Howe comparison if Micic wrestled for USA?

 

Both situations are hypothetical. 

 

Roasted is probably not the best word...Thing is we can't use the biggest 2 letter word in the dictionary. "IF"

 

Micic IS a world medalist.

 

Everyone else is IF situations. 

 

 

[SIACfan]

20 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

No I would not use that comparison, but would you use the Howe comparison if Micic wrestled for USA?

 

Both situations are hypothetical.

 

 

But the situations are still different.

 

Micic choose to wrestle for Serbia, thus avoiding the US wrestlers.

 

Parris didn't choose to avoid Gable. He stayed at 285 in DI.

[brickfor6]

3 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

But the situations are still different.

 

Micic choose to wrestle for Serbia, thus avoiding the US wrestlers.

 

Parris didn't choose to avoid Gable. He stayed at 285 in DI.

I agree, but he also had no choice whether Gable was there or not. He wasn't going 197. 

There is no choosing for Parris.

 

Also I do not think that Micic is avoiding US Wrestlers, he is avoiding the US process. It is an easier process for him to make the Serbian team. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by brickfor6

[SIACfan]

3 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

I agree, but he also had no choice whether Gable was there or not. He wasn't going 197. 

There is no choosing for Parris.

 

He could have choose DII.

 

Are you saying that if he was close enough that he would have choose 197 to avoid Gable?

 

Look, Micic made a choice to avoid the US wrestlers in his quest to wrestle on the world stage. It paid off handsomely for him. And I am not trying to take that from him. Most people would make that choose if they could.

 

I am just taking exception to you comparing Mason Parris' NCAA title to being the same. Because it isn't.

[SIACfan]

12 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

Also I do not think that Micic is avoiding US Wrestlers, he is avoiding the US process. It is an easier process for him to make the Serbian team. 

 

You say that like there is a distinction.

 

Why is the process easier?

 

Maybe because the US wrestlers aren't involved.

[brickfor6]

2 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

He could have choose DII.

 

Are you saying that if he was close enough that he would have choose 197 to avoid Gable?

 

Look, Micic made a choice to avoid the US wrestlers in his quest to wrestle on the world stage. It paid off handsomely for him. And I am not trying to take that from him. Most people would make that choose if they could.

 

I am just taking exception to you comparing Mason Parris' NCAA title to being the same. Because it isn't.

I agreed that the situation is different.

 

He could have choose DII, I guess you could say that. But that would eliminate his tier that @ReformedPoster said earlier. Who knows, he would have had to wrestle Streck. 

 

I think that IF (there's that word again) he was close enough to 197 he would have avoided Gable IF he had that chance. Also, I am not in his head so who knows?

 

The process is much easier I would say. Yes less competition. Is he avoiding the wrestlers though? No. The US Open is insane, you win that what do you get? You wrestle again at Final X. In Serbia, he does not have to go through the lengthy process of getting a chance to wrestle at worlds, he makes the team with ease and does not have to worry about not making worlds. This gives him a chance to focus more on international competition. 

 

Zane Richards is wrestling at Final X...Micic is 3-1 against him.

[Ahawkeye]

Who was the US representative the year Micic placed at worlds?

Do you think Micic could have beaten him straight up?

Honest question.

[brickfor6]

16 minutes ago, Ahawkeye said:

Who was the US representative the year Micic placed at worlds?

Do you think Micic could have beaten him straight up?

Honest question.

Gilman placed 2nd and lost to the same guy as Micic by the same amount of points.

I think the match would be closer than a lot think.

[SIACfan]

5 minutes ago, Ahawkeye said:

Who was the US representative the year Micic placed at worlds?

Do you think Micic could have beaten him straight up?

Honest question.

 

Thomas Gilman

 

All speculation as to whether Micic would have made the US team or not. But it makes no difference because he choose the easier path to compete at worlds. Most would do the same given the opportunity.

[SunDevils]

2 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Why isn't Micic on your list? Also his score at the world championship is better than everyone on the list, can you configure in world placement to this? 

 

Great catch - it was strictly an oversight. I have updated it accordingly. Did Stevan happen to qualify all 4 years at NCAA's? It looks like he was strictly a 3 time placer at NCAA's and lost a year of qualifying due to transferring out of Northwestern.

[brickfor6]

11 minutes ago, SunDevils said:

Great catch - it was strictly an oversight. I have updated it accordingly. Did Stevan happen to qualify all 4 years at NCAA's? It looks like he was strictly a 3 time placer at NCAA's and lost a year of qualifying due to transferring out of Northwestern.

He lost in the Consi blood round in OT as a senior. He went up from 133 to 141. 

 

Wild because he won a world medal at 57kg.

Edited May 11, 2023 by brickfor6

[SunDevils]

35 minutes ago, brickfor6 said:

He lost in the Consi blood round in OT as a senior. He went up from 133 to 141. 

 

Wild because he won a world medal at 57kg.

 

This is precisely why I weighted only similar styles. Since it is entirely likely he is the best "freestyle" wrestler of all time. And folkstyle top 6 of all time. Numbers suggest Andrew Howe is the best folkstyle of all time.

 

However, I do understand all the IF arguments. For example, Mason Parris beat 2020 Olympic bronze medalist Amir Zare at the 2019 Jr Worlds. How would we factor that in as an effective measure? I don't think you can objectively. We can't just assume that had Gable not been the U.S. representative in 2020 that Mason would have earned Gold or Silver. Though history shows he is quite capable of that feat. Mason might end up like Andrew Howe stuck behind a PFP all-time legend.

Edited May 11, 2023 by SunDevils

[maligned]

14 minutes ago, SunDevils said:

This is precisely why I weighted only similar styles. Since it is entirely likely he is the best "freestyle" wrestler of all time. And folkstyle top 6 of all time. Numbers suggest Andrew Howe is the best folkstyle of all time.

I think he means it's wild that he wrestled 141 in college, but then cut back down to 57kg (125.5 pounds) for freestyle. Many guys at the world level have tried to make the jump from 57kg (125.5) to 65kg (143). Even world champ-level guys are far below their previous performance level making that big of a jump. Micic was prepping for making that jump during the college season, was way worse up at 141, and went back down to his better weight.

[SunDevils]

12 minutes ago, maligned said:

I think he means it's wild that he wrestled 141 in college, but then cut back down to 57kg (125.5 pounds) for freestyle. Many guys at the world level have tried to make the jump from 57kg (125.5) to 65kg (143). Even world champ-level guys are far below their previous performance level making that big of a jump. Micic was prepping for making that jump during the college season, was way worse up at 141, and went back down to his better weight.

The metric I provided doesn't account for weight. Nor is my previous statement less true, even if that is the context. The metric I provided simply took a weighted average of high school state placement and NCAA placement. However, it is theoretically possible to add a weighted factor that accounts for state championships and NCAA placement in multiple vs single weight classes.

[brickfor6]

6 hours ago, SunDevils said:

 

This is precisely why I weighted only similar styles. Since it is entirely likely he is the best "freestyle" wrestler of all time. And folkstyle top 6 of all time. Numbers suggest Andrew Howe is the best folkstyle of all time.

 

However, I do understand all the IF arguments. For example, Mason Parris beat 2020 Olympic bronze medalist Amir Zare at the 2019 Jr Worlds. How would we factor that in as an effective measure? I don't think you can objectively. We can't just assume that had Gable not been the U.S. representative in 2020 that Mason would have earned Gold or Silver. Though history shows he is quite capable of that feat. Mason might end up like Andrew Howe stuck behind a PFP all-time legend.

I think the best Folkstyle wrestler is Nick Lee. 
 

Micic was ranked #2 in the nation before moving up to 141 where he was a 24 seed at the NCAA tourney. The rest of the world wrestles freestyle though… and Micic was 3rd best in the world. 

[igotcaught]

11 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

With Parris you can say the same thing about him. If Gable would have wrestled would he have been a national champion? The answer is no. Micic is getting roasted for not taking the US route. Parris won NCAA without Gable. 

 

I don't like the Gable argument because he would have that impact on any weight class in most era's. I'd look at it like, no matter who you are, 125-285 they won only because Gable wasn't there. Gable is one of the greatest USA wrestlers we have ever seen, Yianni D is lucky Gable was never his weight.