ENoblewrestling Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I have been having this discussion with my kids and a few coaches lately. When I was wrestling you always chose bottom. Unless you were getting destroyed in the match you chose bottom, it was essentially free points. I have seen more and more kids choose bottom and get rode out in the past few seasons. I also see more kids choosing neutral or top then in the past. So is the general rule of choosing bottom becoming outdated? The second part to this question, and if I could make another awesome poll I would, is top wrestling in general is getting better or is bottom wrestling just weaker, or kids are just not as tough as they used to be? When this topic gets brought up amongst coaches it usually becomes a discussion about kids lacking mindset, or a mentality to get up, as opposed to a lack of knowledge on possible ways to score from the bottom position. So are kids on bottom weaker minded, or do they lack the skills needed? Finally if top is getting better, and bottom weaker, as in the skills and movements are lacking on bottom, were can we go to grow on bottom? I have witnessed top wrestling become more dominant imo, the skills, and moves are much better than when I wrestled, but what about bottom? It seems like top wrestling has evolved, while wrestling from the bottom still uses the same moves as when I came up. Does anyone know good clinicians or videos on bottom movement, what about coaches how do you coach your guys to score from bottom? Do you guys think any knew moves/ positions will come along and add to what a wrestler does from bottom? Ok there are a lot of discussion questions here so have at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Two words: Nate Newport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 This is going to sound completely against all logic, but hear me out... I think kids who don't wrestle freestyle are worse on bottom. I see those kids get turned a lot more because they don't get a feel for stopping them. If they are getting turned, then they aren't escaping. Also, without a freestyle background, their scrambles are sloppier so they get caught on their back more when they do try to move quickly. Freestyle teaches you to scramble without exposing your back. Additionally, I think kids who don't wrestle freestyle are worse on top. They tend to struggle more with basic tilts and just a general sense of what it takes to turn someone. If you can learn to turn someone whose only goal is to not get turned, then it becomes much easier to turn someone who is risking position to try to get away. I know freestyle doesn't help at all with riding and escapes, but the mat sense gained is amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I know that there is a poll attached to this question, but I really think the decision is predicated on who's wrestling. I would say in most cases going down is the prudent choice because the odds are in favor of that bottom person scoring a point. There are times however, that I think taking bottom is suicide. Two kids off the top of my head that I feel wrestlers would be foolish to take bottom against are the Hughes Bros. Those two are so strong on top and turn people with relative ease that if I were coaching against them, I wouldn't choose down. I'm going off of memory, but I thought Drew's decision, whether his or his coach's to not take top on Wilson was a mistake and may have cost him the state title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 That really depends a lot on the individual match. I always say you should try to spend the most time in the match where you think you have the biggest advantage. If you have an advantage on your feet. Than take down. If your advantage is on top than take top. The key is to recognize ,quickly where you have the advantage. I feel like this should be the single most important part of coaching a match. Sometimes it not about wresting in your strongest position. It about exploiting his weakest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosgrove Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 my mind set is no one will ride us once it hits your color look at ref and say bottom no decision to be made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgyorks Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 my mind set is no one will ride us once it hits your color look at ref and say bottom no decision to be made I agree if the kids have the mindset and ability. If they don't it's iffy. More often then not I agree cos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosgrove Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 another thing to think about if kid is moving onto to college he has to learn to get out of bottom from the best riders on top and has to learn how to ride the best guys from getting out of bottom so its experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 my mind set is no one will ride us once it hits your color look at ref and say bottom no decision to be made Lets say you always take bottom, like you say. What happens if your kid is clearly out classed on his feet. Now he gives up another takedown. How does that help him? You may only have one chance to be in the position that you have the advantage and you don't take it, because you always take bottom. Choosing top may be the only time your wrester get the top position. If that is the one position that your wrestler has the advantage and you don't take it. Don't be surprised when the outcome doesn't go your way. As far as taking top in collage. There are guys who are great on top, that take top all most every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICfan Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 It really depends. Last year in the 120 state finals match Hughes probably should have chose top, he got dominated on his feet, so getting a point wouldn't of mattered and top imo was his best position. His coaches seemed to agree but I think he chose neutral anyways. It depends on situation. My last hs match I was playing takedown let em up on a kid, he chose top and cradled me, it was over. If he would have chose bottom chances are he would have got teched, so do you think he was wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmotorfan Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Just some many variables, but it should be dictated by how kid is feeling about the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Two NCAA Championships ago, Frank Molinaro definitely should not have chosen down on Dake after he was just rode like a dog most of the previous period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I am telling Rod you are calling him outdated. Go ahead and choose neutral and tell your appointment that you afraid of him and that you suck on bottom. In all honesty there are a ton of variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 It really depends. Last year in the 120 state finals match Hughes probably should have chose top, he got dominated on his feet, so getting a point wouldn't of mattered and top imo was his best position. His coaches seemed to agree but I think he chose neutral anyways. It depends on situation. My last hs match I was playing takedown let em up on a kid, he chose top and cradled me, it was over. If he would have chose bottom chances are he would have got teched, so do you think he was wrong? Just some quick comments Going in to the second drew wasn't getting dominated on his feet. The only TD was a reversed call from a stalemate tha was let play out for :30 seconds changing the match. Wilson choose neutral instead of a 0-0 match going in the second. Drew didn't go against his coaches I think he choose to go underneath before coaches said anything. Hindsight is 20/20 but what if he didn't turn deondre and rode him for 2 minutes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rey mysterio Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 In my opinion no not every wrestler should always choose bottom everytime. Especially if outmatched. But specifically because I know plenty of kids who if you put them on bottom they'll get rode out or turned. While if they were on top or neutral they could actually score and not get scored against or not get up. Something I never understood that coaches would do. Don't put a wrestler in their weak spot put them where they are best and where they have a shot at winning. All wrestlers are better at different things. You should know your wrestler and what's going to give them their best shot. I know coaches who who KNOW their kid is terrible on bottom and are goin up against a decent kid and they are behind and they don't get up. Well they should know better the wrestler would of had a better shot at neutral or too whatever his stronger suit you pick their strong suit. It does come down to score and time left too though just depends but for the most part no you shouldn't always pick bottom. Seems dumb to me for certain wrestlers that is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkraus Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Chris Normal Valparaiso chose top all the time. Around ten years ago he was wrestling Josh Garza from Portage who was a couple time state placer. Garza was about ready to tech Norman at individual regionals and the third period came. Norman chose top threw in the legs and pinned him. At team regionals a few days later Garza was winning by 14 again I believe. Third period Norman chooses top throws in legs and pins him again. Norman probably made the right choice by choosing top. :-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICfan Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Just some quick comments Going in to the second drew wasn't getting dominated on his feet. The only TD was a reversed call from a stalemate tha was let play out for :30 seconds changing the match. Wilson choose neutral instead of a 0-0 match going in the second. Drew didn't go against his coaches I think he choose to go underneath before coaches said anything. Hindsight is 20/20 but what if he didn't turn deondre and rode him for 2 minutes? I guess I mean he couldn't get anything going on his feet. I honestly thought he was going to choose top and even when he chose bottom I said to the people I was with that he made a mistake, I even said he was going to lose when he didn't chose top. He might have not seen it or something but they definitely showed top before he chose. But if he doesn't get the turn he's in the same situation. He played into Wilson's strongest position and avoided his best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 This is going to sound completely against all logic, but hear me out... I think kids who don't wrestle freestyle are worse on bottom. I see those kids get turned a lot more because they don't get a feel for stopping them. If they are getting turned, then they aren't escaping. Also, without a freestyle background, their scrambles are sloppier so they get caught on their back more when they do try to move quickly. Freestyle teaches you to scramble without exposing your back. Additionally, I think kids who don't wrestle freestyle are worse on top. They tend to struggle more with basic tilts and just a general sense of what it takes to turn someone. If you can learn to turn someone whose only goal is to not get turned, then it becomes much easier to turn someone who is risking position to try to get away. I know freestyle doesn't help at all with riding and escapes, but the mat sense gained is amazing. Wait wait wait.... That's absurd, there is no way freestyle helps folkstyle. Just kidding, thumbs up and a +1 for that post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 You have to win two of the three positions in a flokstyle match to be consistent. Bottom is by far the toughest position to work on and improve. We made the commitment several years ago to not get rode out. I've never heard anyone say freestyle helps you be better on the bottom in folkstyle. How is that possible?? In talking with my kids they think bottom position is one of the reasons freestyle requires less conditioning than folkstyle. But, this past year was out first freestyle year and first year wrestling year around. So I suppose our experience in that area is limited. I do know all the NCAA guys we work with put a huge emphasis on getting away from bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Remember this, If you choose bottom. You can score 1 or 2 points. If you choose top. You can score 2,3,4,5,6 or more. There was a match this weekend with two highly ranked wrestlers that had 0 points in the first. Second period the guy who chose down gave up 5 points. The third period the wrestler in the lead choose top and scored 5 more. Coaches who always choose bottom are either blind or stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Coaches who always choose bottom are either blind or stupid. Or they've committed to the technique and doing the work that it takes to not get ridden out or turned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Or they've committed to the technique and doing the work that it takes to not get ridden out or turned. What about the fact that sometimes someone else is just better in that position. I see this all the time with coaches. They think their system trumps the skill sets of the wrestler. I am one who thinks, great coaches adapt to the skill sets of the wrester. That does not mean you don't work your butt of to improve every position. It just means every match and every wrestler is different. If you work you butt off and get really good in all 3 positions and your opponent is only good in 2. Than you would be crazy not to make him wrestle in his weakest position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 What about the fact that sometimes someone else is just better in that position. I see this all the time with coaches. They think their system trumps the skill sets of the wrestler. I am one who thinks, great coaches adapt to the skill sets of the wrester. That does not mean you don't work your butt of to improve every position. It just means every match and every wrestler is different. If you work you butt off and get really good in all 3 positions and your opponent is only good in 2. Than you would be crazy not to make him wrestle in his weakest position. I agree, if you just got ridden for 3 1/2 minutes odds are against you getting away in the last 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLane Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 depends on the match and wrestler. but if its 0-0 at end of the first....I would choice bottom. I look at the UTB rule, we score first its our choice in UTB for top/bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 depends on the match and wrestler. but if its 0-0 at end of the first....I would choice bottom. I look at the UTB rule, we score first its our choice in UTB for top/bottom What if the kid is a good rider and rode your kid out last year or in a previous match this year? On top of that, what if your kid is struggling on bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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