Team State Debate

[IMAWRESTLER]

Bobby Cox puts Indiana on notice. (todays Indy Star)

 

http://www.indystar.com/article/20101115/SPORTS02/11150314/Team-state-finals-event-endangered?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Sports|s

[Darrick Snyder]

Gary,

 

I hear you and I know understand the unfair situation smaller schools have been put in with current team state format.  It is an unfair system for smaller schools as it currently stands.  I was in the dark for a long time, but I finally get it.  That is why we need to work to get it classed.  The process is under way, but we have to be realistic and willing to work consistently for what we want.  I wish I could explain in words my vision and hopes...and what a classed team state could do for all programs.  Those of you that haven't been able to focus on and preach the team because of the current system would be shocked at where your programs could go with a classed team state.  Your individuals are still going to train for their individual goals, but with the team in mind they work even harder.  The worst kid in your room is just as important as the best because they all determine if you can make it to, place at, or win a Team State Championship.  Our numbers have doubled since I have been here - it is because of Team State.

 

We first have to keep team state...then we work tirelessly to get it classed.  I am willing to do it, but we all have to work for the same goal.  I can't explain what it could do for your and so many programs.  Stay TOGETHER and FIGHT Coaches!

 

Darrick Snyder

[Jimtown 138]

Bobby Cox puts Indiana on notice. (todays Indy Star)

 

http://www.indystar.com/article/20101115/SPORTS02/11150314/Team-state-finals-event-endangered?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Sports|s

 

People need to read this article!

[hummels]

Bobby Cox puts Indiana on notice. (todays Indy Star)

 

Ouch. "I'm not looking at what the coaches say they want."

[Jimtown 138]

Ouch. "I'm not looking at what the coaches say they want."

 

Right. That is a very confusing article. Does Cox even come on this site and look around? He needs to...

[Y2CJ41]

He does own an IndianaMat.com tshirt and did an interview for us last year.

[MattM]

Right. That is a very confusing article. Does Cox even come on this site and look around? He needs to...

 

He has an agenda for what he things is best for the entire IHSAA sports scene in general and its safe to say wrestling super high on the priority list even with it making them some revenue.  Obviously, if we made them much more however it would be hard for him to overlook us to much considering he needs to find a way to pay for several other sport that do not make the IHSAA any money at all.  For the IHSAA its always going to be about promoting the IHSAA orgnization as a whole and making money.  That not necessarily a bad thing, its just what their job is based on.  This is different than the wrestling community idea of promoting just wrestling and improving the qualift of it reguardless of the money value that comes along with it.  This make it difficult to see eye to eye in order to save somthing when the two groups involved have two different belief systems that have little common ground.

[indyt]

Just got off the phone with Bobby Cox and I just wanted everyone to know that spin doctors in the paper can twist and put words into quotes to make them sound worse than what they are.  Bottom line, wrestling can help wrestling here and he agrees and so do I. 

[Sponge Bob]

 

Alright so having a team championship creates an ego issue? SO according to your post getting rid of team state and putting in solely on the wrestlers would correct this ego issue we have? Sounds a little backward to me. As an individual you get that it's all about me mentality and you only worry about yourself. With a team atmosphere you may still have SOME of this. However, I believe much of it depends on the attitude of the coach and how he brings his team along. If the head coach builds a team first approach within the team there will be less room for an ego to grow.  I just thought it was an interesting approach you took stating that by taking away a TEAM portion of state and making it all about the INDIVIDUAL, you would help wrestlers with their ego issues.

 

 

You still run into the individual egos here. Coaches still measure their success in part by how many kids they can get to state and how many they can get on a podium. Remember the team state as it currently stands only affects 20 teams at best. The ethical issue needs to be dealt with by the schools AD and administration. Getting rid of team state WILL NOT help this issue. To think otherwise is just silly.

 

 

Sorry Coach,but how do you think one school wins 11 State Titles in a row . This curent format is not inclusive of all schools and promotes cheating among some programs . That is why no one really cares to attend. I firmly believe in the value of ethics if doing away with the team state moves  us towards this then I am for it . My team has no chance to get there because my coaches and school chose not to bend the rules. If you do not see what I see then you need to take a closer look. Things die when they do not have a healthy root system and that is what is happening. The individuals you speak of are the kids who bust thier tails .         yes we should be encouraging them to nurture a healthy ego.     It is the coaches who need to look in the mirror. Why is it  and how is that the same teams and coaches get there every year. It is the same coaches who are trying to save team state in its current form. It is about them not the sport.I vote give it back to the kids. I for one do not like what team state has become. A place to see who can cheat the best team together.  do not ask me to be specific. It is the ugly TRUTH

[md85]

I have been to every one since the tournament began, even the last two, which my team did not qualify for.  I would hate to see the team state tournament die.  My most exciting sports memory is the MD come from behind win over Hobart.

[KarlHungus]

 

Sorry Coach,but how do you think one school wins 11 State Titles in a row . This curent format is not inclusive of all schools and promotes cheating among some programs . That is why no one really cares to attend. I firmly believe in the value of ethics if doing away with the team state moves  us towards this then I am for it . My team has no chance to get there because my coaches and school chose not to bend the rules. If you do not see what I see then you need to take a closer look. Things die when they do not have a healthy root system and that is what is happening. The individuals you speak of are the kids who bust thier tails .        yes we should be encouraging them to nurture a healthy ego.    It is the coaches who need to look in the mirror. Why is it  and how is that the same teams and coaches get there every year. It is the same coaches who are trying to save team state in its current form. It is about them not the sport.I vote give it back to the kids. I for one do not like what team state has become. A place to see who can cheat the best team together.  do not ask me to be specific. It is the ugly TRUTH

 

If someone is cheating report it to the IHSAA

[AJ]

He is also concerned that the Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association continues to award a trophy at the individual state finals to the school that would have won the state title under the old scoring system, before the team tournament was instituted in 1996.

 

Cox said that is a violation of IHSAA bylaws. The coaches continue to award it, even though they have been asked to stop.

 

If this is true, then why do we continue to award it?  I admit knowing the old scoring system is fun and entertaining and I like it, but if it is violating the by laws then shouldnt it be stopped?  People will still be able to figure it out and have fun with the discussion without it being an actual award.  Has the IHSAA ever "officially" asked for it to be stopped, or have comments just been made?

[Y2CJ41]

Here is your watered down team state there Buscowrestling!

 

APPROVE THE WRESTLING COACHES PROPOSALS

 

The Executive Committee took the following actions on proposals presented by representatives of the Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association at the March meeting.

 

1. The Dual Meet Tournament should become a class system tournament with three classes and ninety-six sectionals. This proposal was voted down during the IHSAA Board of Directors meeting, and therefore, is a mute issue.

 

Is that really what you want a watered down team series where over 30% of the schools are sectional champs?

[ENoblewrestling]

Here is your watered down team state there Buscowrestling!

 

APPROVE THE WRESTLING COACHES PROPOSALS

 

The Executive Committee took the following actions on proposals presented by representatives of the Indiana High School Wrestling Coaches Association at the March meeting.

 

1. The Dual Meet Tournament should become a class system tournament with three classes and ninety-six sectionals. This proposal was voted down during the IHSAA Board of Directors meeting, and therefore, is a mute issue.

 

Is that really what you want a watered down team series where over 30% of the schools are sectional champs?

 

Why are you against the team tournament being classed?  I figured this would be something that we could all agree upon, so why don't you feel its a good idea?  I did not know of the fact that classed teams had been voted on.  I also don't know the setup of that tournament.  I do know that the tourny would be very competitive and our 3 classes would have more teams per class than the basketball or football tournaments.

[Y2CJ41]

Because it waters down what it means to be a state champion.  I want to know who the TRUE champion is.  It would also compromise the integrity of the sport.  We all know you are against compromising the integrity of the sport.

 

If you would win a sectional title in a classed system, wouldn't you feel it would be cheapened?

[ENoblewrestling]

Because it waters down what it means to be a state champion.  I want to know who the TRUE champion is.  It would also compromise the integrity of the sport.  We all know you are against compromising the integrity of the sport.

 

If you would win a sectional title in a classed system, wouldn't you feel it would be cheapened?

I feel this way toward the indivdual side, I feel that the team title is a different thing.  We have been over this a million times.  Despite what I feel I do not see why you would want to hurt the chances of a classed team tournament in any way by posting things that either are, or seem to be against the team tournament.  If you feel that the best way to crown our champion is the indivdial tournament then that is fine, but if you think a team tournemnt that is classed is the best way to go about it then why try and fight and argue against it? 

This seems to be an issue that we can all get together on, and one that I feel we could still work together to get.  This website and your views hold a lot of weight.  I think that people are a bit confused on your stance on the issue, and if you would back what I think we both agree is right on the team side, then we could get something done.

Just because we dont agree on the individual side that doesn't mean that we cant work together on what is best ofor the team side.

[Y2CJ41]

How does classing ruin the individual side, but not the team side?  How does it water down the individual side, but not the team side?  How does it compromise the integrity of the sport on the individual side, but not the team side?

 

Note that arguably the best wrestling program in the state the past 15 years is a SMALL school.  How would we have known who the true champion was if the team portion was classed?

[ENoblewrestling]

How does classing ruin the individual side, but not the team side?  How does it water down the individual side, but not the team side?  How does it compromise the integrity of the sport on the individual side, but not the team side?

 

Note that arguably the best wrestling program in the state the past 15 years is a SMALL school.  How would we have known who the true champion was if the team portion was classed?

 

It is my  opinion that classing the team side is would fix something that is unfair, the fact that it is more difficult to fill a fourteen man roster at a small school than a big school.  The indivdual side in my opinion is allready even, a one on one competition where the size of your school and the number of teamates do not make a difference on your success.  It is indivdual.  That is why I feel one should be classed in not the other.   I nkow you disagree with me on this and that is fine.  If you feel that I am wrong then that is your thoughts adn that works for me.

 

Mater Dei is in the middle class according to the three team division, so not a small school, a medium sized school.  You always state that they should e considered a bigger school than what they really are anyhow.

 

It is also important to note that my personal feelings on the indivdual tournament have nothing at all to do with this debate.  It does not matter how you or I feel about classing that side.  We are trying to save the team state.  Why does it matter if we disagree on indivdual?  Dont you agree that a classed team state would be a good thing?  Lets work for that.  

 

[Y2CJ41]

Please answer these questions

 

1. Will classing team state water down what it means to win sectional, regional, state as a team?

Yes or No

 

2. Will classing team state cheapen what it means to be a sectional champion?

Yes or No

 

3. Will classing team state not give us a true champion team?

Yes or No

 

Please answer these questions honestly.  If there is a yes to any of them, then I would say no to it because these are the same reasons YOU give for not classing individual state.

[ENoblewrestling]

Please answer these questions

 

1. Will classing team state water down what it means to win sectional, regional, state as a team?

Yes or No

 

2. Will classing team state cheapen what it means to be a sectional champion?

Yes or No

 

3. Will classing team state not give us a true champion team?

Yes or No

 

Please answer these questions honestly.  If there is a yes to any of them, then I would say no to it because these are the same reasons YOU give for not classing individual state.

 

 

Why would what I feel about the indivdual tournament matter to your thoughts on the team tournament?  We are not against eachother on this issue.  The fact that we dont agree on the indivdual side should have nothing to do with your thoughts on the team side.

 

To answer your question I would say that I have allready stated how I feel that the team tournament is different that the individual, and that even though the answer would be yes in some of these circumstances it would be worth it because of the disadvantages caused by school size and your ability to field a full strong roster.  Thus i feel that for the team tournement a classes are needed to even out the playing field, and that in this situations any negatives would be overshadowed by the positives it would bring to the sport.

[Y2CJ41]

So you can't answer those questions?  Why not?  Three simple yes or no questions and you can't answer them, hmmm.....

[ENoblewrestling]

So you can't answer those questions?  Why not?  Three simple yes or no questions and you can't answer them, hmmm.....

 

I said that the answers would be yes, I dont though feel that it would always make being a "true champion lessened"  or "cheapen what it means to be a scetional champ".  These are not things that are black and white.  There is a lot of gray area.  I think that the people generally feel that school sizes are a hinderance in a team setting.  This would cause some to not think about or care about the fact that they are winning  a classed team sectional.  I feel that this is differant that the individual side.  I was talking with a friend that is a track fan, he agreed with my basic idea, and summed up their individual side with the Idea that if "your fast, your fast" That is the way that some people (including myself to an extent) feel about the indivdual side, if your good, then your good and it doesn't matter what size school you go to. 

Once again why debate this with me, we disagree on it.  Lets work to save team state, and quit bickering about the indivdual side.

[CoachW33]

 

Sorry Coach,but how do you think one school wins 11 State Titles in a row . This curent format is not inclusive of all schools and promotes cheating among some programs . That is why no one really cares to attend. I firmly believe in the value of ethics if doing away with the team state moves  us towards this then I am for it . My team has no chance to get there because my coaches and school chose not to bend the rules. If you do not see what I see then you need to take a closer look. Things die when they do not have a healthy root system and that is what is happening. The individuals you speak of are the kids who bust thier tails .         yes we should be encouraging them to nurture a healthy ego.     It is the coaches who need to look in the mirror. Why is it  and how is that the same teams and coaches get there every year. It is the same coaches who are trying to save team state in its current form. It is about them not the sport.I vote give it back to the kids. I for one do not like what team state has become. A place to see who can cheat the best team together.  do not ask me to be specific. It is the ugly TRUTH

 

I would venture to say it's through hard work that they put in running camps, clubs, and practices throughout the year. I would say possibly out working you and your coaching staff. I WOULDN'T say every coach is unethical or cheating to win. Listen the recruiting button needs to stop being pushed. If coaches were getting the job done in their room then the wrestlers from that school wouldn't need to go other places to maximize their potential. I'm not saying that recruiting is okay but I am saying it is not always the coach who is pulling the kid in.

 

These coaches you speak of that are trying to save team state are trying to help the GROWTH of  wrestling. They could be seen as the spokesmen of our sport and they are known because of there success. I would say coach Snyder and Coach Tonte have there kids best interest at heart not their own.

 

I think for you to come on this board and bash them by saying they only coach wrestling for their ego makes you sound a bit jealous and bitter of their success. Frankly, it makes me think maybe you should be working harder in the off-season to put your program together like Tonte did or like Snyder did when he took an already solid program and took the next step to prominence.

[Sponge Bob]

I would venture to say it's through hard work that they put in running camps, clubs, and practices throughout the year. I would say possibly out working you and your coaching staff. I WOULDN'T say every coach is unethical or cheating to win. Listen the recruiting button needs to stop being pushed. If coaches were getting the job done in their room then the wrestlers from that school wouldn't need to go other places to maximize their potential. I'm not saying that recruiting is okay but I am saying it is not always the coach who is pulling the kid in.

 

These coaches you speak of that are trying to save team state are trying to help the GROWTH of  wrestling. They could be seen as the spokesmen of our sport and they are known because of there success. I would say coach Snyder and Coach Tonte have there kids best interest at heart not their own.

 

I think for you to come on this board and bash them by saying they only coach wrestling for their ego makes you sound a bit jealous and bitter of their success. Frankly, it makes me think maybe you should be working harder in the off-season to put your program together like Tonte did or like Snyder did when he took an already solid program and took the next step to prominence.

  Sorry coach

I just see the next level as helping kids beyond 4 years of high school. Did you happen to know the true story behind the current movie "Blindside" Now that is real success, not stocking shelves at a Dilly Mart. Seems we have a different view of success too. My story is about none of what or who you mentioned. It is about a system that "always"  puts the kids first . I just do not think team state does that.

[zachpierson]

I would venture to say it's through hard work that they put in running camps, clubs, and practices throughout the year. I would say possibly out working you and your coaching staff. I WOULDN'T say every coach is unethical or cheating to win. Listen the recruiting button needs to stop being pushed. If coaches were getting the job done in their room then the wrestlers from that school wouldn't need to go other places to maximize their potential. I'm not saying that recruiting is okay but I am saying it is not always the coach who is pulling the kid in.

 

These coaches you speak of that are trying to save team state are trying to help the GROWTH of  wrestling. They could be seen as the spokesmen of our sport and they are known because of there success. I would say coach Snyder and Coach Tonte have there kids best interest at heart not their own.

 

I think for you to come on this board and bash them by saying they only coach wrestling for their ego makes you sound a bit jealous and bitter of their success. Frankly, it makes me think maybe you should be working harder in the off-season to put your program together like Tonte did or like Snyder did when he took an already solid program and took the next step to prominence.

 

amen!!!! sponge bob just seems to be a bit jealous to me as well. As one who wasn't around before team state, did the dual meets still feel as important without the team state to look forward to a rematch? Were there a lot more individual tourny? just asking