Team State Debate

[Y2CJ41]

Some people will never understand with words in a forum. Its not a fault some people are just more hands on learners than reading words.  Honestly Y2, I listen to alot of what you have to say cuz I think you are very knowledgable and factual..but if you can not figure out how to coach kids about small victories, life lessons, bigger picture (future teams) then what you should do is talk to one of the coaches who have commented on this subject and ask if you can sit in on some practices...or go on some summer trips with some of these coaches who believe that W and L arent the only measuring stick of success.  I believe you will see that if these kids who buy into the small successes, hard work, bigger picture, you will get kids to come back to your practice room and help coach and wrestle with the next generation. These kids might teach your youth program, these kids might recruit for you, they might get there own kids to wrestle years from now.  Many successful programs are generational, by the time the second and third generation of kids get there they are born into wrestling.  Back to point, these kids who bleed the colors of your program becuase you have taught them about life, might only be a 15-20 match winner at best, but sometimes the best coaches arent the best wrestlers.  So now these kids that come back are teaching your positive attitude and technique to youth or whatever.  If you dont have a few kids coming back from college or after work to help out then I would say something is a miss.  I know some very small schools that have generations of farm families that they keep reloading with, or have two or three kids that cant wait to come back and help on their college brakes, or kids that come home to get jobs in their small town and help out when they can with their team.  If this isnt happening maybe your kids arent feeling a positive, life impact from your program...I dont know.  But cant you see how this benefits a program.  I mean keeping your kids together from elementary school all the way to high school with a united team ideology in mind, and these elemntary kids are being taught by someone who has already came through your program and believes what you have taught them.  Its an extension of you.  I really cant comprehend how a program large or small does not have this attitude.  If this doesnt make sense then I would say you need to follow a program who believes this way and see how they do it...also there are alot of good books on how to be a positive influence on a team, even if they are facing what seems like an uphill battle.

I love the people that want to judge me and the Garrett program on here without even knowing where Garrett is.  Do you have any clue of any of the success or lack of it at Garrett?  I highly doubt you do.  You want to ask why there aren't any recent alumni back coaching?  Well maybe because they went to college and are off doing bigger and better things. 

 

I guess after reading your post I should just quit coaching because obviously I am the worst coach on earth.  Good day

[PreparetoWin]

You do what you feel you need to do, but you wanted examples and I and others gave you honest examples.  I did not point a finger at your program, at you...I believe I was very deliberate in what I was saying without making  this a personal attack because your right I have no idea about you are your program. I would just take heed to what some very successful coaches are telling you and examples people are trying to give you to help you out because you did ask the question how do you make kids positive when they is no chance to win.  That statement might be the root of your problem.  But I am sure you will take apart my comment and retort with some comments that are only going to prove my point about being a positive influence. If you feel like you are the worst coach and the need to quit then I guess that is a personal choice...lol but all, the ones who commented on this subject, were trying to do is show you a different perspective take it or leave it. But dont be so obtuse to another coach/program willingness to just give some advice and pull a poor pitiful me, or make an excuse for something. The more negative you are, the more you prove the points we have made.  Just read the words and appreciate the fact that they are willing to share what makes them successful, then you can chose not to adopt these words and practices or you can chose to have a different outlook either way these coaches have extended an olive branch and tried to at least be positive in trying to show whats worked for them. I would think you would want to respond with a "thank you...thats something to consider".

[KarlHungus]

 

 

Support it?  Just look at the teams who are in the IHSAA state finals and semi-finals every year in any sport.  Most of them are the same teams over and over again with a few new ones that find their way into the mix.  Doesn't matter if its 5A or 1A most of the teams are repeats yearly because that area continues to grow and develop sucessful programs.  I'm not claiming they win every year but they are usually in the mix for possible winning teams along with a few other teams that switch out every year or two.  I'm not sure how you can say this is an unsported hunch when it clear in the amount of state finals and semi-state participation some schools have had.  As I said though we do seem more change at the sectional and regional winners since there are more winner so obviously more chances to smeek in.  And those other teams winning a sectional or regiona leac hyear take pride in it.  Thus growing their schools  and communities support in that sport.

 

Boys basketball state finalists 2006-2010

 

34 of a possible 40 state finalists are from different schools.

 

No school made more than 2 appearances in the last 5 years.

 

Girls basketball state finalists 2006-2010

 

28 of 40 from different schools

 

Wrestling state finalists 2006-2010:

 

18 of a possible 40 finalists from different schools.

 

6 schools made 3 or more appearances in the last 5 years.

 

This is why I think most of what you say is unsupported garbage.  I did 5 minutes of research and it is clear there is much more parity in basketball than wrestling.

 

Much like when you tried to say the the coach's trophy was not a team award and that the IHSAA did not feel it was a slap in the face.  You were proven conclusively wrong on both accounts.  Why?  Because you post what your hunches are or what you are predisposed to think rather than look for something substantial to back whatever claim you are making at the time.  Normally I ignore it because I do think you have a passion for the sport and I respect that but in this case I think your hunch is so baseless that it had to be addressed.

[Timeinandout]

Boys basketball state finalists 2006-2010

 

34 of a possible 40 state finalists are from different schools.

 

No school made more than 2 appearances in the last 5 years.

 

Girls basketball state finalists 2006-2010

 

28 of 40 from different schools

 

Wrestling state finalists 2006-2010:

 

18 of a possible 40 finalists from different schools.

 

6 schools made 3 or more appearances in the last 5 years.

 

This is why I think most of what you say is unsupported garbage.  I did 5 minutes of research and it is clear there is much more parity in basketball than wrestling.

 

Much like when you tried to say the the coach's trophy was not a team award and that the IHSAA did not feel it was a slap in the face.  You were proven conclusively wrong on both accounts.  Why?  Because you post what your hunches are or what you are predisposed to think rather than look for something substantial to back whatever claim you are making at the time.  Normally I ignore it because I do think you have a passion for the sport and I respect that but in this case I think your hunch is so baseless that it had to be addressed.

 

Karl, compare wrestling stats from other states.  Basketball is much different than wrestling.  Y2 posted that Michigan has had 58 different finalists in the past 15 years.  That is 14.5 different finalists in each of the 4 classes.  So every year, one of the teams wrestling for the title has been there before.  I think a classed team state would level the playing field and give smaller schools a level playing field, but there will still be a lot of regulars at the state tournament...not a bad thing.  I hear people say, "the team state is stupid because it only is for about 10-20 teams."  Yeah, the best teams.  I like a Cindarella Story as much as the next guy, but it is difficult to do in wrestling.  Indyt stated that you can teach kids to stay off there back, etc.  I have coached and seen a lot of wrestling in my day, and for about 90% of the matches I attend I know who is going to win before it starts.  I can't say that in most other sports. 

[KarlHungus]

Karl, compare wrestling stats from other states.  Basketball is much different than wrestling.  Y2 posted that Michigan has had 58 different finalists in the past 15 years.  That is 14.5 different finalists in each of the 4 classes.  So every year, one of the teams wrestling for the title has been there before.  I think a classed team state would level the playing field and give smaller schools a level playing field, but there will still be a lot of regulars at the state tournament...not a bad thing.  I hear people say, "the team state is stupid because it only is for about 10-20 teams."  Yeah, the best teams.  I like a Cindarella Story as much as the next guy, but it is difficult to do in wrestling.  Indyt stated that you can teach kids to stay off there back, etc.  I have coached and seen a lot of wrestling in my day, and for about 90% of the matches I attend I know who is going to win before it starts.  I can't say that in most other sports. 

 

I was specifically replying to MattM contention the same teams play for state titles in other sports.

[KarlHungus]

Well, class team state and MD, Yorktown, Delphi and other schools that don't share the losing mentality of some of the proponets of teams state on this board are going to be there every year and destroy the teams with losing mentalities year after year after year.  No different than now. 

 

 

Class state and there will still be people that have no clue what they are talking about....that's the way the world turns.

[Y2CJ41]

I am now against class wrestling.  Today we went undefeated against Mishawaka at a JV tournament.  Better watch out Mishawaka, here comes GARRETT!!!

[XCard]

One thing I think needs to happen if the Team State portion is going to stick around is to start holding the A.D.s responsible as well.  Cocahces need to preach what they are preaching on this board to them.  I pose a question to the handfull of schools that have made the trip to Team State, has your school ever provided buses for fans interested in going down and supporting your school?  Maybe this can help with the attendance issue and more fans would go if they had ample transportation to make the trip to Indianapolis.  I guess after reading the article,  I can see why they have concerns about the attendance.  Three local schools in the torunament and the attendance is that low does not say a whole lot for the fan support of the tournament.

 

If they did decide to class the tournament, whether it be two or three classes, I believe you have to keep the qualifing number for each class at 8.  It would not make much sense to class the tournament, let's say for example into two classes, and allow for four teams to qualify at each.  The whole goal in classing the Team poriton is to give the oppurtunity to some of the smaller schools and boost attendance.

 

If this proposal to class the Team portion is a success, then I definitely think the next logical step would be to class individual portion.  I have been against it for many years, but have come to terms that a classes individual portion could only help us progress.  As y2 has pointed out, you can apply the same prinicples that are argued for the team portion and apply them to the individual portion.

[Oscar]

After getting out for the first weekend of Indiana High School wrestling and mingling with the crowd I am convinced more than ever we should

 

discontinue the team state tournament. It seems we have drifted away from what drew myself and many others to this sport in the first place. It was a

 

place to compete where size did not matter and earning a spot on the team was decided by your own willingness to work hard. My sole focus was to be a state

 

champion and my coach helped me work towards that goal. I hear all too often today from kids who say they are being cohersed to do things like cut

 

weight unnecessarily to accommodate the "team". In the end they begin to associate the sport with an unpleasant experience and this can not be good for

 

the sport. Way back when, when I was in High School we had a great team. No we did not win a team state title but we were a bunch of kids just having a

 

great time and enjoying the sport as kids being kids. I have great memories and feelings for the sport and I never won a single title. This just does not seem

 

to be the case today. The coaches all too often ask kids to do things to accommodate the "team" in the elusive chase for a team state title. Lets just get back

 

to the old traditional way of deciding this thing. First in the room where an unbiased wrestle off decides who should fill the spot, and

 

not some coaches idea of how to fill his roster to give him the best chance to make it to team state, then on the mat where the coach can not be during the

 

match. There is a lot to be said for tradition. We need to go back to the old way. The one that tradition follows and give this thing back to the kids. So kids

 

can be kids again and come away with positive feelings for this sport.

[Timeinandout]

Oscar,

Do you honestly believe that a kid won't cut weight to make the varsity squad?  Back when you wrestled, the traditional way, did kids not lose weight because they wanted to have a better team?  I hear stories about great dual meets with standing room only during your traditional era. 

 

 

[Oscar]

Timeinandout

 

To answer your first question. No.    That is a decision that the kid should make with guidance from his parents and a responsible coach. You seem to miss

 

my point. Traditional for me means long standing. Maybe a 100 years before my time and a 100 years after my time. Not just my time. To answer your

 

second question. Again -- No.      They did, however, lose weight to make the varsity team because that is how you get better. First by working harder to

 

give yourself the opportunity to face the other kids who where working harder across the state to make their varsity line up. You are only allowed one

 

entry per weight class per school so you had to make the varsity line up to compete for a state title individually. The team part came from

 

friendship and community not from some idea of chasing a Team State Championship. To address your last statement. You heard right. The

 

one I remember was Cathedral vs Blomington South. It was a great traditional rivalry. I think it still is today. Sorry  "T" but I long for the day when kids

 

can be kids again.

[ENoblewrestling]

Oscar have you ever been to the team state championships? They are a great experiance and something that the kids enjoy a lot. Its very obvious if you have ever seen them that the kids care aboout winning a team title as much or more than the coaches do.  You are essentially arguing that being selfish and not caring about your team and your teams scores is good for a kid, and better for the sport?

[Timeinandout]

Oscar,

During your mingling this first weekend, what was said that makes you not want a team state?

[Oscar]

Oscar have you ever been to the team state championships? They are a great experiance and something that the kids enjoy a lot. Its very obvious if you

have ever seen them that the kids care aboout winning a team title as much or more than the coaches do.  You are essentially arguing that being selfish and not caring about your team and your teams scores is good for a kid, and better for the sport?

The answer to your first question is-- yes . Many times. I would have agreed with you years ago before I began to see some things develop. Now I

 

feel differently. A team is a family and a family is built in a community and around frienships. I do not suggest any selfishness but this sport is built

 

around individual hard work so it is hard to seperate the perception of selfishness. It is just that a perception. Again at one time I would have bought it but

 

now I see differently. What you suggest is exactly the kind of argument that is used to manipulate kids and sometimes parents in to believing you do

 

things for the team whether they are good,right,unethical or not. My idea of team just differs in this case. That is the best I can do to explain.

[Oscar]

Oscar,

During your mingling this first weekend, what was said that makes you not want a team state?

 

 

It was mainly just a confirmation of what I have already suspected which leads me to believe we need to make some changes. I spoke to at least a

 

dozen different people. I am a student of psychology and I am constantly trying to read people. I did have one deja vu moment about "do it for the team"

 

that really flipped my switch. It is a little complicated. That is the best I can do. I think you can figure it out. 

[ENoblewrestling]

Oscar just because you have an odd idea of a team doesn't mean that we should get rid of it. Coaches have always tried to build strong teams, even when you wrestled.  Don't you think that coaches have always wanted to position their team to win conference, and sectionals?  Coaches change their lineup to win regular season duals.

Every coach wants to get their best lineup out there and will try to position their team to have the best chance of winning, always has happened, and will continue to as well.  If an event happens the first thing posted is the team score, wrestling has and will always have a team aspect to it.

Finally not to steal from others playbook on this one, but if your ability to read people is yor basis for why loosing team state would be a good thing then your argument is looking pretty week.

[Oscar]

Oscar just because you have an odd idea of a team doesn't mean that we should get rid of it. Coaches have always tried to build strong teams, even when you wrestled.  Don't you think that coaches have always wanted to position their team to win conference, and sectionals?  Coaches change their lineup to win regular season duals.

Every coach wants to get their best lineup out there and will try to position their team to have the best chance of winning, always has happened, and will

 

continue to as well.  If an event happens the first thing posted is the team score, wrestling has and will always have a team aspect to it.

 

 

Finally not to steal from others playbook on this one, but if your ability to read people is yor basis for why loosing team state would be a good thing then

 

your argument is looking pretty week.

 

 I said I was trying to read people. The operative word is "trying". I never claimed to have all the answer. My read this weekend was that even

 

some of those who have had experience particpating in team state would not be that upset to see it go. The individual state tournament is were it all

 

happens and that can include crowning a team state champion as it did before the trial time of the team state tournament. Can you crown individual

 

state champions from the team state tournament format? No you can not. Can you crown a team state champion from the individual tournament? Yes

 

you can? Do you bring in more revenue from team state or individual state? Can you make up revenues by improving individual state and increasing the

 

fees. ? These are the real questions the IHSAA will be looking at. Not my or your opinion of whether we should keep it or not. If I had a vote, and I do not, I

 

would vote to go back to the individual format to crown the team champion. I have expressed my concerns to some people who do have an influence on the

 

process.What ever prevails I will just have to go along.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MattM]

Boys basketball state finalists 2006-2010

34 of a possible 40 state finalists are from different schools.

No school made more than 2 appearances in the last 5 years.

Girls basketball state finalists 2006-2010

28 of 40 from different schools

Wrestling state finalists 2006-2010:

18 of a possible 40 finalists from different schools.

6 schools made 3 or more appearances in the last 5 years.

This is why I think most of what you say is unsupported garbage.  I did 5 minutes of research and it is clear there is much more parity in basketball than wrestling.

 

Much like when you tried to say the the coach's trophy was not a team award and that the IHSAA did not feel it was a slap in the face.  You were proven conclusively wrong on both accounts.  Why?  Because you post what your hunches are or what you are predisposed to think rather than look for something substantial to back whatever claim you are making at the time.  Normally I ignore it because I do think you have a passion for the sport and I respect that but in this case I think your hunch is so baseless that it had to be addressed.

 

 

First it helps if you take what I actually say instead of what you need to take form it to try and prove your own point.  I did not say just state finals.  I said ?Certain schools seem to be hotbeds of talent and continue to produce top teams each year.  Even in classed sport you see the same teams often make it to state or semi-state every year.  The variety of team winning  is much more noticeable at the sectional and regional levels where along with these annual favorite a few other teams also advance.?  If you look back over the last 10 years at other class sports not just basketball you will see this happen many times.  I?m not claiming certain teams will always win the state championship but it easy to see certain areas have consistently developed teams can contend regularly to make it to the semi-finals and finals of their sport over a long period of time.  And yes obviously new teams make it in each year to face these teams and sometimes beat them in the semi-finals.  When you see some teams make it to the semi-finals or finals 4 out of 10 years or higher (some 8/10, 9/10, and even 10/10) it?s a little more than a luck game or a few special players for their junior and senior season. Heck the only reason a few are just at 4 or 5 is because they were eliminated in regional finals by another team on this list.  The discussion you want to base this discussion over was Smooth saying  ?The same 10-12 teams occupy those eight spots every year at Center Grove.? And my response was ?the same situation happens in most sports?  ?Even in a class system you see many of the same teams make it to the semi-state and state level?.

 

Here are those stats you need. 

 

Over the last 10 years the amount of teams that have made the semi-finals of Girls Volleyball and Boys Football

 

Girls Volleyball

4A  16 different team of the 40 spots  (5 schools with 3 or more appearances)

3A  20 different teams of the 40 spots (4 schools with 3 or more appearances)

2A  13 different teams of the 40 spots (4 schools with 3 or more appearances)

1A  13 different teams of the 40 spots (7 schools with 3 or more appearances)

 

Boys Football

5A 17 different teams of the 40 spots (8 schools with 3 or more appearances)

4A 17 different teams of the 40 spots (7 schools with 3 or more appearances)

3A 16 different teams of the 40 spots (5 schools with 3 or more appearances)

2A 18 different teams of the 40 spots (5 schools with 3 or more appearances)

1A 19 different teams of the 40 spots (3 schools with 3 or more appearances)

 

In all of these cases just a few teams equaled 50% or more of the total  semi-finals apperances  When you count the number of teams that start the first round of sectionals that is not so much parity compared to your basketball numbers.  Heck I don?t know maybe basketball is the oddity here but I think my statment about seeing reoccuring teams at the top level regularly in most sports is far from "garbage."  As mentioned in an early post if we look at wrestling in another state it looks to also be the case that not as much parity exists.  I didn?t bother looking into Girls Softball or Boys Baseball but I would venture to say those 1o year numbers are a little closer to my findings than your 5 year study on basketball.  I also didn?t bother looking into all the none class sports but I would again venture to say if they have a true team advancement system in most sports you will see repeated team names constantly in semi-state or state competition. There is no secret to it some area are just good at certain sports and have long 10 year or more streak of producing quality teams that are at the level of competing for semi-state or state title.  I?m not sure how that is hard accepted.

 

This is why I've said before you and your buddy occasionally get so tied up in your side of the argument that you pick only certain statements and/or try to find the best angle you can to help your side without looking at all the info possible.  I did a few minutes of research and it is clear there is so much less parity in these sports than in your example of basketball.  Next, the amount of teams with 3 or more appearances may not have a major effect here.  Since in some case several team will share this honor evenly.  But in other cases a one or two teams may have 7-9 appearances while the rest listed have only one or two.  Which means in the end it may equal out to the same number of total teams.  So the smaller number of most appearances actually can show constant regular appearances at the semi-final level too as would be the case with Muncie Central and Burris in their respected volleyball classes.  Also I?m not saying it will dramatically change in thing but your data has some holes in it.  Your basketball numbers just come from teams that  made the championship final game in the last 5 years while your wrestling numbers includes every team that make it to the final 8 in the last 5 years.  You also cloud your data by pooling 4 split up classes together in basketball which automatically increased the chances of more teams making the list since the 4 groups can not eliminate each other along the way.  Again it may not make a difference in the numbers and you many not have even realized this when putting your data together but it still has an effect on the outcome.  Since those numbers proved what you were looking for through you didn?t bother to notice that discrepancies in the data or even to investigate other sports to see of they had similar findings.  I guess I won?t stoop to calling what you put together  ?garbage? but it is not great for comparing based on the differences in how the results calculated. 

 

Using your 5 year model of just the championship finalists, wrestling would be 6 different teams of the 10 spots (2 schools with 3 or more appearances)

A slightly higher percentage of different teams compared to your earlier data.

So we can atleast compare, my 1o year data of semi-finalists would say wrestling 14 different teams of the 40 sports (6 teams with 3 or more appearances)

 

I?m not saying this is a reason to not have a class team event.  Since I said after that there is still much more variety of winners as the sectional and regional level and thus that is how schools can use a class system to grow their sport.  However, then I mention we have to get more wrestling teams to take more value and pride in what winning a team sectional or competing in team Regional represents.  May in the wrestling community just act the only worth wild accomplishment is team state finals period where in other sport winning a team sectional or regional is a big deal for the team and for the community.  For us to sustain even a class team state system we have to get more teams to see  that winning at any level of the team event can is a feather in the cap and can be used to grow the sport in their community.

 

 

Secondly, as far as the Coaches Trophy goes I didn?t say the IHSAA wasn?t upset about it.  I really don?t know if they are or not.  I said the IHSAA shouldn?t equal the Coaches Trophy to a Team State Title since the coaches trophy usually does not go to the team that even makes the dual championship finals.  My ?hunch? would be the IHSAA even knows a lack of connection exists and it wasn?t a big deal to them until they realized it could be used as another factor in trying to prove we didn?t need team state.  I said something to the effect of the Trophy shouldn?t equal a team state championship since it was base on the performance of a few individuals that weekend.  So, I see the award as being for the coach (name of the trophy) who prepared the best individuals for that day.  You, IHSAA, and anyone else can look at the trophy any way you want but to me the criteria of the trophy compared to a dual championship if two different things.  I have always maintained that the preparation, planning, procedure, and results of the individual event is completely different from what teams do for a dual championship the outcome of individuals at one event shouldn?t be looked at as the same as outcome of a dual event.  I agree basing a dual title on the individual scores would help middle size and even smaller schools make the top 10.  But that still doesn?t equal it being called a team state championship in my book.  Just like I don?t agree you should bases a team state championship on a few individuals? results in any sport because in some cases not much of the team even participated.  Heck a few years back in Texas one girl alone won two team state titles in a row in track and field team.  You know when that can happen calling it a team state based on a few individual results is just a little off.

 

 

Lastly, I?m not sure why you are so vested in proving me wrong when (A) its easy for most people to see without stats that certain area have developed into powerhouses in specific sports and usually will continue to be for a long period of time.  ( we both have agreed for awhile that classing the team side of thing would help to grow the sport by allowing for new areas to grow and develop as they found more team success. © we both know that figuring out how many difference teams have made it to state or even semi-state doesn?t really do much for the growth of the sport since it effects only a small number of teams period.  Four teams per year per class get to the semi-finals isn't a large impact.  But we both also understand that in a class or none class system more teams supporting and valuing sectional and regional level success is where the biggest effect can be felt since they involve so many more teams.

[KarlHungus]

nice work

[Oscar]

I have been hearing about the disbandment of the TEAM STATE for awhile now, as Coach McCormick stated...it's a done deal.

 

We can debate about this until the cows come home, the bottom line is: IT'S OVER.

 

Wrestling will NEVER be viewed as a sport of importance in Indiana as long as the culture of the IHSAA continues to be narrow, stubborn, and ignorant.

 

Unfortunately, fellas, they could care less!

I decided to go back to the beginning and start reading through this discussion and I got as far as page two and read this.I think the cows are home . What do you think?        

 

Moooooooooooo !!

[mikev]

without a doubt, the individual format should stay as it is......crowning a "true" state champion is the best way to go.......but from a team standpoint, i feel it would greatly benefit the sport of wrestling to do the team format in a classed system......the exposure that will get added to alot of different schools, big and small alike, is invaluable in promoting and growing our sport.....it will help build traditions for many schools that cannot get there as it is now.......look what it does for football........it can and would be the same for wrestling......

[Y2CJ41]

without a doubt, the individual format should stay as it is......crowning a "true" state champion is the best way to go.......but from a team standpoint, i feel it would greatly benefit the sport of wrestling to do the team format in a classed system......the exposure that will get added to alot of different schools, big and small alike, is invaluable in promoting and growing our sport.....it will help build traditions for many schools that cannot get there as it is now.......look what it does for football........it can and would be the same for wrestling......

So watering down the team aspect of the tournament will grow the sport, but watering down the individual aspect won't?

 

I think we should go back to where only the top two from semi-state make it to state.  Heck I would be for just the semi-state champions go to state.  I don't understand why we even give out placements beyond first place because if you aren't the champ you are nothing.

[Timeinandout]

So watering down the team aspect of the tournament will grow the sport, but watering down the individual aspect won't?

 

I think we should go back to where only the top two from semi-state make it to state.  Heck I would be for just the semi-state champions go to state.  I don't understand why we even give out placements beyond first place because if you aren't the champ you are nothing.

Stop it Y2.  I just punched my computer again.  Personally, I don't mind a classed individual, but just to get you going again I can argue.  Winning state at a small school class is not "equal".  For example, Lets say there were 3 classes.  Each class had a 100 teams.  The average school population for the 3 classes are 400, 800, and 1200.  That means there are 40000 kids in the small class, 80000 kids in the med. class, and 120000 kids in the large class.  The large class individual has to be better than a lot more kids. 

[Y2CJ41]

It is usually a general consensus that the team that wins the 5A football crown that they are the best team too.

 

In wrestling however, we get the luxury of potentially seeing many of these matches during the season or in the offseason at ISWA/HYWAY events.  We will also be able to see these individuals at national tournaments and be able to see who is the best via tournament results like those.

 

This would make regular season duals and tournaments more exciting when you could have cross-class match-ups.  Events like the Triacoff and Al Smith would be neat too, to see how the teams stack up against the other teams from different classes. 

[hammer]

Stop it Y2.  I just punched my computer again.  Personally, I don't mind a classed individual, but just to get you going again I can argue.  Winning state at a small school class is not "equal".  For example, Lets say there were 3 classes.  Each class had a 100 teams.  The average school population for the 3 classes are 400, 800, and 1200.  That means there are 40000 kids in the small class, 80000 kids in the med. class, and 120000 kids in the large class.  The large class individual has to be better than a lot more kids. 

 

I still can't figure out why those people that are completely against a classed individual tournament get ticked off when someone mentions only advancing champions on each level.  If someone was a Sectional runner up and went on to win State, how would we know that they were the real champion?  If classing is so bad, let's go back to only winners advancing.  We could eliminate a round of the tournament, too, and then we could advance Regional champs to State.