Team State Debate

[indyt]

I really do not know the answer to this and I am far to busy today to look it up but I would like to know, just for knowledge of the situation, What is the percentage of the coaches trophy winners that are considered" big schools"(whatever that is-for example Southport is only half the size of BD, Carmel, Penn and Warren roughly).  Also what percent of the teams, say, since, the team state has won the coaches trophy...

 

Some stats if anyone wants to play with numbers.  I agree, get classed team state and wrestling will explode in Indiana. 

[Coach Peck]

 

 

Some stats if anyone wants to play with numbers.  I agree, get classed team state and wrestling will explode in Indiana. 

 

Classing Team State would help Wrestling in Indiana, but I think "explode" might be a bit of an over statement.  I do think classing the whole thing would cause wrestling to reach some new participation levels.  I honestly think if someone were to file a class action lawsuit against the IHSAA they could be forced to class all sports.  At present they do not give all student-athletes the same opportunity and as Title IX has shown us America is all about equal opportunity.  Showing that almost all other states class all sport, and testimony from college coaches saying that kids opportunities for college recruitment are deminished due to fewer classes, would probably make for a very good case.

[indyt]

I  really do think it would explode.  Think about the small school state teams.  They may not make it to state in any sport and now the make it to state in wrestling, place or even win.  Their communities start to rally behind them.  More kids want to wrestle.  Their youth programs take off.  It has a ripple effect across the state.  Schools will not be able to ignore their success.  And you multiply that by the number of teams that make the tournanmet(depending on what format there was).  Clubs would get bigger.  Out of season comp would get better.  I can see all of these types of things happening.  This could be really cool. 

[Y2CJ41]

I  really do think it would explode.  Think about the small school state teams.  They may not make it to state in any sport and now the make it to state in wrestling, place or even win.  Their communities start to rally behind them.  More kids want to wrestle.  Their youth programs take off.  It has a ripple effect across the state.  Schools will not be able to ignore their success.  And you multiply that by the number of teams that make the tournanmet(depending on what format there was).  Clubs would get bigger.  Out of season comp would get better.  I can see all of these types of things happening.  This could be really cool. 

That is only for the small school teams that are fairly successful now.  The ones that aren't successful now are not going to see much if any of a boost.  A sectional cellar dweller now is going to be the same in a classed system.  Our goal should be to help all teams, not just the top tier of the teams in the state. 

 

Like I have stated before around 90 teams are represented at individual state every year.  If we get more teams involved with the individual side, the team side will grow too.  You can't have a good team until you have some good individuals, it is like putting the cart before the horse. 

 

I can tell you from Garrett's standpoint, when we finally broke the ice with our first state qualifier in 2003, it helped with recruiting and being able to show kids what they could do.  We built a good team around some very good wrestlers.  We had great wrestlers before we had a great team.

[infowrestling]

Ok, here are some percentages for the team state series.  I could figure up the coach's trophy information if there was a list of the winners since we went to the Team State format.

 

Class 3A:

23 Schools have made an appearance at Team State.  That is roughly 23 % of that class and 8% of schools that have wrestling.

 

Class 2A:

9 of these schools have made an appearance at Team State.  That is roughly 9% of that class and 3% of schools that have wrestling.

 

Class 1A:

3 of these schools have made an appearance at Team State.  That is roughly 3% of that class and 1% of schools that have wrestling.

[ENoblewrestling]

That is only for the small school teams that are fairly successful now.  The ones that aren't successful now are not going to see much if any of a boost.  A sectional cellar dweller now is going to be the same in a classed system.  Our goal should be to help all teams, not just the top tier of the teams in the state.

 

I disagree.  If it were classed I think that some of the teams that are at the bottom could see a new oppurtunity in a classed system.  We finished in the top half of our sectional and the goal we have is to someday catch teams like Garret, Carrol and Whitko.  Those teams would have or did beat us in duals by around 20 points last year.  

Given that our kids work and push to close the gap and become closer to those teams.  While 20 points is a nice victory its not like we got completley blown out of the gym.  So if our goal would be to close the 20 point gap to those teams, which year to year I feel is a realistic goal then why couldn't the teams that we currently beat by 20, or 30 points look at us and say that we can catch them?  If it were a classed tournament the teams that the lower teams would have to catch would be the middle of the pack teams in the current format.  Are there exceptions?  Yes but that does not always have to be the rule.

Take us and Prarie Heights as an example, last year they beat us by around 20, the year before it was a two point dual.  This year they will be heavily favored and likely a top 5 ranked team in the 1A poll, so with that situation do I think we will never, ever be able to beat PH?  No way we will work hard and someday get them.  Teams have good and bad years, esspeacially at small schools, and I think that classing it, and making the top teams smaller schools would give all teams more hope and more oppurtunity to compete.  

[Y2CJ41]

Just some stats to chew on

In football over the past 15 years, there have been 68 different teams represented at the state finals.  Only one has been there over half the times(8) and that is Bishop Chatard.  30 of the teams have been to state only once and 52 have been there once or twice.

 

That is with 10 state finalist teams each year compared to our 8.  

[Y2CJ41]

I disagree.  If it were classed I think that some of the teams that are at the bottom could see a new oppurtunity in a classed system.  We finished in the top half of our sectional and the goal we have is to someday catch teams like Garret, Carrol and Whitko.  Those teams would have or did beat us in duals by around 20 points last year. 

Given that our kids work and push to close the gap and become closer to those teams.  While 20 points is a nice victory its not like we got completley blown out of the gym.  So if our goal would be to close the 20 point gap to those teams, which year to year I feel is a realistic goal then why couldn't the teams that we currently beat by 20, or 30 points look at us and say that we can catch them?  If it were a classed tournament the teams that the lower teams would have to catch would be the middle of the pack teams in the current format.  Are there exceptions?  Yes but that does not always have to be the rule.

Take us and Prarie Heights as an example, last year they beat us by around 20, the year before it was a two point dual.  This year they will be heavily favored and likely a top 5 ranked team in the 1A poll, so with that situation do I think we will never, ever be able to beat PH?  No way we will work hard and someday get them.  Teams have good and bad years, esspeacially at small schools, and I think that classing it, and making the top teams smaller schools would give all teams more hope and more oppurtunity to compete. 

 

So let me translate this

Garrett beats Busco by 20

Busco beats XXX team by 20

Garrett can probably beat XXX team by 30

 

XXX team thinks they have a shot at Garrett? 

 

What new opportunity would they have, to get beat by teams their own size for once?  Can you tell me how you would coach a bunch of kids that have had very little individual success to team success? 

[Y2CJ41]

Ok, here are some percentages for the team state series.  I could figure up the coach's trophy information if there was a list of the winners since we went to the Team State format.

 

Class 3A:

23 Schools have made an appearance at Team State.  That is roughly 23 % of that class and 8% of schools that have wrestling.

 

Class 2A:

9 of these schools have made an appearance at Team State.  That is roughly 9% of that class and 3% of schools that have wrestling.

 

Class 1A:

3 of these schools have made an appearance at Team State.  That is roughly 3% of that class and 1% of schools that have wrestling.

82 of the 120 appearances at team state have been from 3A schools... that is 68%

[infowrestling]

That is amazing considering that the top 2 teams in number of appearances are 2A. (Bellmont and Mater Dei)

[Y2CJ41]

That is amazing considering that the top 2 teams in number of appearances are 2A. (Bellmont and Mater Dei)

Only 3 teams below 3A have multiple appearances

Yorktown-3

Mater Dei- 13

Bellmont- 13

[Timeinandout]

Just some stats to chew on

In football over the past 15 years, there have been 68 different teams represented at the state finals.  Only one has been there over half the times(8) and that is Bishop Chatard.  30 of the teams have been to state only once and 52 have been there once or twice.

 

That is with 10 state finalist teams each year compared to our 8.  

Y2,

You continue to compare other Indiana sports to wrestling.  That is comparing apples to oranges.  Wrestling is much different than football, baseball, basketball, volleyball, etc.  It is much harder for wrestling teams to pull an upset.  In b-ball one guy can get hot and the other team goes cold...Pike lost to Perry in basketball last year in the sectional after losing by 25 earlier in the year.  Brebuf doesn't win the Volleyball title after being ranked like 4th in the country...beating dozens of 5A schools.  Many of the top 5a football teams lost in the first two rounds of sectionals this year.  In wrestling if you lose to a team 9 matches to 5...it is much harder to make that up.  Before you get on and give me several examples, please tell me you agree that it is much harder to pull the upset over favored teams.  Karl, you can answer this too.

I don't know this answer, but does the Ohio, Illinois, or Michigan classed state tourney have much parity?

[Y2CJ41]

Ohio scores their tournament at individual state and will be beginning a dual team state next year I believe.

 

In Illinois of the 64 possible state champions and runner-ups there were 28 different teams represented the past 15 years.  Two teams have nine appearances while all the others have 4 or less.

 

Note Illinois had two classes for 13 years and has had three classes for the past two years.

[Y2CJ41]

In four classes Michigan has had 120 teams in the state finals(1st and 2nd) with 58 different teams represented over the past 15 years.

[Y2CJ41]

In New Jersey, which is the only state with a classed team state and single class individual state here are the stats

From 1996-2008(13 years)

of 104 potential state finalist teams in 4 classes there were 37 different teams represented

 

This does in some way support the claim that a classed team and single class individual tournament does not breed parity in the team portion.  Their statistics are very close to what ours are in a single class system.

[ENoblewrestling]

So let me translate this

Garrett beats Busco by 20

Busco beats XXX team by 20

Garrett can probably beat XXX team by 30

 

XXX team thinks they have a shot at Garrett? 

 

What new opportunity would they have, to get beat by teams their own size for once?  Can you tell me how you would coach a bunch of kids that have had very little individual success to team success? 

 

The point is that they will be competing against teams their own size, and that fact alone will give them more hope.  Realistically whats more difficult either in reality or perception having to build a team to beat garrett, or a team to beat Homestead?  What I am saying is that at a small school its a lot easier to get the kids to rally around their chances of catching and beating Garrett every year for a sectional title, than it is to catching Homestead.

[AJ]

Only 3 teams below 3A have multiple appearances

Yorktown-3

Mater Dei- 13

Bellmont- 13

 

And either Bellmont or Yorktown will add another appearance due to them being in same Team Regional.

 

 

[Timeinandout]

In four classes Michigan has had 120 teams in the state finals(1st and 2nd) with 58 different teams represented over the past 15 years.

Is it safe to say that we can divide 58 by 4 then and get a number for each class.  So, in the last 15 years, there has only been 14.5 teams represented in the finals of each class.  This is proving my point that there is little parity in the classes.  There is still the top teams making it to the finals more often.  I bet if you take the top 8 teams there would be even less parity.  I would love a class system, but the same teams are going to make it to state.

[Y2CJ41]

The point is that they will be competing against teams their own size, and that fact alone will give them more hope.  Realistically whats more difficult either in reality or perception having to build a team to beat garrett, or a team to beat Homestead?  What I am saying is that at a small school its a lot easier to get the kids to rally around their chances of catching and beating Garrett every year for a sectional title, than it is to catching Homestead.

So you are saying XXX who gets routinely beaten by Garrett by 30+ points is all of a sudden going to have hope?  How is a team going to have hope when they are getting beat by the 2nd or 3rd best team by 20 points too?

 

How do these teams build hope when their individuals have very little success?  

[infowrestling]

Is it safe to say that we can divide 58 by 4 then and get a number for each class.  So, in the last 15 years, there has only been 14.5 teams represented in the finals of each class.  This is proving my point that there is little parity in the classes.  There is still the top teams making it to the finals more often.  I bet if you take the top 8 teams there would be even less parity.  I would love a class system, but the same teams are going to make it to state.

 

Considering that there have only been 3 appearances from the class A teams in 14 years of Team State, I would venture to say, there may be a few new teams at state.

[dstruck]

So let me translate this

Garrett beats Busco by 20

Busco beats XXX team by 20

Garrett can probably beat XXX team by 30

 

XXX team thinks they have a shot at Garrett?  

 

What new opportunity would they have, to get beat by teams their own size for once?  Can you tell me how you would coach a bunch of kids that have had very little individual success to team success?  

 

In respectful response to post #451......

(maybe I misunderstand it)

 

I love wrestling for it's one on one..........but as a coach trying to grow mass numbers of kids to live in our community the team competition is very important to our lives here.

 

This is just what made our program grow (amoung other things)...............

you coach kids that have little individual success to be WONDERFUL TEAM MEMBERS!! Those are the kids that go out there and fight to gain the major decision when they coulda won by 5, or not give up the tech when they are down by 14 and the team needs them.  You teach them to bridge like hell for an extra 30 seconds because somebody needs them!!! You teach them to get that pin on the guy that they have on their back when time is running out, instead of just being happy with the win.   You teach them MORE ABOUT THEIR IMPORTANT ROLL IN OTHERS LIVES and not just thinking about themselves.  You teach them to PAY IT FORWARD and help others out by  helping the team gain 1 extra team point at a time or not lose as many.

 

This kid has WAY MORE REASON to wrestle hard now that is for the team, then if it is just his own record.  If he is  a kid that isn?t very good and going to have a losing record ? now he can validate those wins and losses by saying ? "I might have lost 15 times but I never got pinned when my team needed me, or I never got majored when my team needed me." We teach kids way more about pushing through things in life with team score than I do in an individual one on one match.

 

I have had emense satisfaction seeing my team come and celebrate a kid in a loss for going the extra mile and not getting pinned, it is an awesome celebration matside for a kid that would otherwise feel alone in his loss.

 

Just an opinion -but the team competition has helped our program grow - even in years that "Mater Dei" was unstoppable, our kids were racing , trying to be the first to beat them.

 

See you guys later, I gotta go coach my team.

[Timeinandout]

Considering that there have only been 3 appearances from the class A teams in 14 years of Team State, I would venture to say, there may be a few new teams at state.

 

Let me clarify my arguement.  I am not saying that the same teams will continue to make it if we class teams state.  I am saying that there will be little parity within the classes.  The same top 5 teams will make it each year in each class, and you will mix in a few others.  I am for a classed team state, but many peoples arguement is that the same teams make it every year so why have it.  Wrestling is a sport that rewards the hardest working programs....not saying that others don't work hard.  Penn had like 50 or 60 kids wrestling at the ISWA folkstyle state the past couple years.  They will be a contender.  It is much easier for a football team to get an awesome quarterback or running back to carry a team for a couple seasons.  You can't count on a couple studs to win you a dual in wrestling.  

[ENoblewrestling]

 

 

In respectful response to post #451......

(maybe I misunderstand it)

 

I love wrestling for it's one on one..........but as a coach trying to grow mass numbers of kids to live in our community the team competition is very important to our lives here.

 

This is just what made our program grow (amoung other things)...............

you coach kids that have little individual success to be WONDERFUL TEAM MEMBERS!! Those are the kids that go out there and fight to gain the major decision when they coulda won by 5, or not give up the tech when they are down by 14 and the team needs them.  You teach them to bridge like hell for an extra 30 seconds because somebody needs them!!! You teach them to get that pin on the guy that they have on their back when time is running out, instead of just being happy with the win.   You teach them MORE ABOUT THEIR IMPORTANT ROLL IN OTHERS LIVES and not just thinking about themselves.  You teach them to PAY IT FORWARD and help others out by  helping the team gain 1 extra team point at a time or not lose as many.

 

This kid has WAY MORE REASON to wrestle hard now that is for the team, then if it is just his own record.  If he is  a kid that isn?t very good and going to have a losing record ? now he can validate those wins and losses by saying ? "I might have lost 15 times but I never got pinned when my team needed me, or I never got majored when my team needed me." We teach kids way more about pushing through things in life with team score than I do in an individual one on one match.

 

I have had emense satisfaction seeing my team come and celebrate a kid in a loss for going the extra mile and not getting pinned, it is an awesome celebration matside for a kid that would otherwise feel alone in his loss.

 

Just an opinion -but the team competition has helped our program grow - even in years that "Mater Dei" was unstoppable, our kids were racing , trying to be the first to beat them.

 

See you guys later, I gotta go coach my team.

Well said

[ENoblewrestling]

No matter how you feel about our current set-up and the importance of the team side we would be loosing the best way to determine a team champion. If we loose the duals either as they are now or a possible classed version in the future then we loose any reason to crown a team champion.  If we go back to the old system it would be the same as crowning the basketball champ through a one-on-one tournament.  It doesn't show the best team in any way at all.  The team state is too important to loose if we care at all about a team side to the tournament. 

[Y2CJ41]

I love wrestling for it's one on one..........but as a coach trying to grow mass numbers of kids to live in our community the team competition is very important to our lives here.

Who doesn't?  I would love every kid in the school to participate in wrestling.  You can't build any team success without individual success FIRST.  I have seen firsthand how getting a few state qualifiers can help a program.  The kids know it is much more realistic for them to go to state as an individual than as a team.  

 

This is just what made our program grow (amoung other things)...............

you coach kids that have little individual success to be WONDERFUL TEAM MEMBERS!!

Those are the kids that go out there and fight to gain the major decision when they coulda won by 5, or not give up the tech when they are down by 14 and the team needs them.  You teach them to bridge like hell for an extra 30 seconds because somebody needs them!!! You teach them to get that pin on the guy that they have on their back when time is running out, instead of just being happy with the win.   You teach them MORE ABOUT THEIR IMPORTANT ROLL IN OTHERS LIVES and not just thinking about themselves.  You teach them to PAY IT FORWARD and help others out by  helping the team gain 1 extra team point at a time or not lose as many.

If you have 14 individuals with little success and are wonderful team members, they don't do much.  Those wonderful team members need to be sprinkled in between those wonderful good wrestlers.  You aren't going to win much with 12 below average kids and 2 average kids.  There isn't much fight in kids if they have little chance for success.

 

This kid has WAY MORE REASON to wrestle hard now that is for the team, then if it is just his own record.  If he is  a kid that isn?t very good and going to have a losing record ? now he can validate those wins and losses by saying ? "I might have lost 15 times but I never got pinned when my team needed me, or I never got majored when my team needed me." We teach kids way more about pushing through things in life with team score than I do in an individual one on one match.

Not when the team has little to no chance of success.  The kid isn't going to put forth the effort if it is on the end of a 60-10 loss.

 

I have had emense satisfaction seeing my team come and celebrate a kid in a loss for going the extra mile and not getting pinned, it is an awesome celebration matside for a kid that would otherwise feel alone in his loss.

Not much to celebrate if the team doesn't win or even come close to winning.  Do you celebrate when your team loses 56-0 with only giving up majors?