Team State Debate

[KarlHungus]

I will talk to Coach Schoettle and or Coach Tonte  today or tomorrow and get back with you. Are you sure he didn't say he would support class team state before he would want team state dropped all together?

 

I quoted him directly from a post earlier today.

[Y2CJ41]

I will talk to Coach Schoettle and or Coach Tonte  today or tomorrow and get back with you. Are you sure he didn't say he would support class team state before he would want team state dropped all together?

So are you saying the only reason Tonte would want a classed team series was if the single class one was in jeopardy of being dropped?

[Big Hawaiian]

3-8 and lost to Indy Northwest ain't exactly tearin it up.  What position did Chico play?

Check out Conference Indiana in football and pick out the gimmies and let me know, and even though they were playing with those undersized linebackers Walpole & Clem and 145lbs noseman Aue, I never heard excuses from them!

Chico played noseman and tackle on defense and tackle on offense.

[Y2CJ41]

Oh now they need to go both ways to debunk that statement,lol! How about 140lbs-145lbs Aue at noseman,lol Needless to say they are playing against much bigger foes but they are wrestlers, and I doubt they prided themselves or considered themselves a weak team!

Just stating a fact, lets not let them get in the way.  Also another fact is our other state qualifier last year was a two-way starter on the football team too.

[PreparetoWin]

I really wish everyone could stop....just stop....in between all the back and forth of discussions that arent really doing any good for the futute of wrestling, kids and teams, there have been some really good ideas.  Someone that is well respected in the wrestling community needs to take the reins and start off by taking an actual survey strickly on TEAM STATE SERIES, thats it! Start with ideas for a temporary fix of what we have, single class, with goals and statagies of how to increase income, participation and fan base, multiclass.  This is the issue in front of us now, this is the issue that needs to be immediantly addressed, this is the issue that coaches, ADs and principals need to be unified on.  Trying to scrap everying and start over will never get approved, we all know it.  But if we can go in unified, with specific ideas and goals to fix what we have and then a short term plan to make it better...this is what might work.  Lets start talking about this specifically and leave everything else out....no matter what your personal agenda or opinion, this is what is best for kids and that should be enough for you to agree to disagree on all other topics and get this problem addressed.  Everyone has to be drained of reading 24 pages, with only maybe 2 pages actually trying to make the situation that is right in front of us better.  Regaurdless of your feelings of individual state, which we have all read over and over, everyone knows....lets move on to something that we can actually rally around as a group.  Even if you dont like the idea of Class Team State, its the only solution that is going to work for all parties....except it and figure out how we can make it work.  Everything else is just wasted breath and jibber jabber right now.  Lets get someone to send out the prestamped questionairre, lets get some solid quantifiable information, and then the coaches board can put it into a proposal to bring to the powers that be. Lets take the higher road and come together and give this a real shot.

[ENoblewrestling]

I really wish everyone could stop....just stop....in between all the back and forth of discussions that arent really doing any good for the futute of wrestling, kids and teams, there have been some really good ideas.  Someone that is well respected in the wrestling community needs to take the reins and start off by taking an actual survey strickly on TEAM STATE SERIES, thats it! Start with ideas for a temporary fix of what we have, single class, with goals and statagies of how to increase income, participation and fan base, multiclass.  This is the issue in front of us now, this is the issue that needs to be immediantly addressed, this is the issue that coaches, ADs and principals need to be unified on.  Trying to scrap everying and start over will never get approved, we all know it.  But if we can go in unified, with specific ideas and goals to fix what we have and then a short term plan to make it better...this is what might work.  Lets start talking about this specifically and leave everything else out....no matter what your personal agenda or opinion, this is what is best for kids and that should be enough for you to agree to disagree on all other topics and get this problem addressed.  Everyone has to be drained of reading 24 pages, with only maybe 2 pages actually trying to make the situation that is right in front of us better.  Regaurdless of your feelings of individual state, which we have all read over and over, everyone knows....lets move on to something that we can actually rally around as a group.  Even if you dont like the idea of Class Team State, its the only solution that is going to work for all parties....except it and figure out how we can make it work.  Everything else is just wasted breath and jibber jabber right now.  Lets get someone to send out the prestamped questionairre, lets get some solid quantifiable information, and then the coaches board can put it into a proposal to bring to the powers that be. Lets take the higher road and come together and give this a real shot.

 

Couldn't agree more.  Ive brought this idea up several times during this thread, yet it still goes back to fighting  about indivdual state.  Ive let myself get involved in it as well.  We should start a new thread on saving team state and go from there.  Ok start it after I post this.

[ChuckHurley]

This is only the second time I have posted on this board. I posted the following data in 2005 and still had it on my PC. Just raw data.

 

From March 2005...

I thought I would do some research and show a nationwide comparison.  Here are all the states broken down by population, number of high school wrestlers in that state, number of schools with a wrestling team, and number of classes.  Some of this is internet research combined with Y2CJ41's information.

Alabama 4,447,100 State Pop.; 1,747 # of Wrestlers; 72 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Alaska 626,932 State Pop.; 1,056 # of Wrestlers; 73 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

Arizona 5,130,632 State Pop.; 4,977 # of Wrestlers; 168 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

Arkansas 2,673,400 State Pop.; No high school wrestling state tournament.

California 33,871,648 State Pop.; 22,007# of Wrestlers; 731 # of schools; 1 # of Classes

Colorado 4,301,261 State Pop.; 5,078 # of Wrestlers; 226 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

Connecticut 3,405,565 State Pop.; 2,545 # of Wrestlers; 115 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

Delaware 783,600 State Pop.; 917 # of Wrestlers; 39 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

*Note: 2 Classes for team state, but 1 Class for individual state tournament.

District of Columbia 572,059 District Pop.; 15 # of Wrestlers; 1 # of schools; No high school wrestling State/District tournament.

Florida 15,982,378 State Pop.; 7,284 # of Wrestlers; 315 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Georgia 8,186,453 State Pop.; 6,442 # of Wrestlers; 276 # of schools; 5 # of Classes

Hawaii 1,211,537 State Pop.; 1,026 # of Wrestlers; 49 # of schools; 1 # of Classes

Idaho 1,293,953 State Pop.; 2,282 # of Wrestlers; 105 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

Illinois 12,419,293 State Pop.; 14,679 # of Wrestlers; 397 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

Indiana 6,080,485 State Pop.; 8,495 # of Wrestlers; 311 # of schools; 1 # of Classes

Iowa 2,926,324 State Pop.; 6,393 # of Wrestlers; 300 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Kansas 2,688,418 State Pop.; 4,762 # of Wrestlers; 188 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

Kentucky 4,041,769 State Pop.; 1,561 # of Wrestlers; 71 # of schools; 1 # of Classes

Louisiana 4,468,976 State Pop.; 1,224 # of Wrestlers; 68 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Maine 1,274,923 State Pop.; 952 # of Wrestlers; 52 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Maryland 5,296,486 State Pop.; 3,886 # of Wrestlers; 162 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

*Note: Maryland combines classes 4A/3A and 2A/1A together for both their individual and team state.  Maryland crowns 4 team as champs = 1 team for each class in team tourney (2) & 1 team for each class in individual tourney (2).

Massachusetts 6,349,097 State Pop.; 3,804 # of Wrestlers; 153 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

Michigan 9,938,444 State Pop.; 11,342 # of Wrestlers; 470 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

*Note: Michigan also has a separate Championship for schools in the Upper Peninsula, so it's like actually 5 Classes.

Minnesota 4,919,479 State Pop.; 8,605 # of Wrestlers; 344 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Mississippi 2,844,658 State Pop.; 41 # of Wrestlers; 2 # of schools; No high school wrestling state tournament.

Missouri 5,595,211 State Pop.; 6,449 # of Wrestlers; 209 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Montana 902,195 State Pop.; 1,871 # of Wrestlers; 86 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Nebraska 1,711,263 State Pop.; 4,322 # of Wrestlers; 232 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

Nevada 1,998,257 State Pop.; 1,885 # of Wrestlers; 69 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

New Hampshire 1,235,786 State Pop.; 670 # of Wrestlers; 33 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

New Jersey 8,414,350 State Pop.; 8,137 # of Wrestlers; 328 # of schools; 6 # of Classes

*Note: NJ has 4 classes for public schools and 2 classes for private schools.

New Mexico 1,819,046 State Pop.; 1,484 # of Wrestlers; 58 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

New York 18,976,457 State Pop.; 12,013 # of Wrestlers; 462 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

North Carolina 8,049,313 State Pop.; 7,529 # of Wrestlers; 289 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

*Note: NC separates all 4 classes for their Team Dual State tournament, but their Individual State tournament combines class 1A & 2A.  Thus, the NC Individual State Championship has three champions: 4A, 3A, and 2A/1A.

North Dakota 642,200 State Pop.; 958 # of Wrestlers; 74 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

Ohio 11,353,140 State Pop.; 12,580 # of Wrestlers; 521 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Oklahoma 3,450,654 State Pop.; 2,500 # of Wrestlers; 129 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

Oregon 3,421,399 State Pop.; 4,904 # of Wrestlers; 196 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Pennsylvania 12,281,054 State Pop.; 8,748 # of Wrestlers; 486 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

Rhode Island 1,048,319 State Pop.; 834 # of Wrestlers; 33 # of schools; 1 # of Classes

South Carolina 4,012,012 State Pop.; 3,608 # of Wrestlers; 108 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

South Dakota 754,844 State Pop.; 1,398 # of Wrestlers; 82 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

Tennessee 5,689,283 State Pop.; 3,634 # of Wrestlers; 147 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

Texas 20,851,820 State Pop.; 7,585 # of Wrestlers; 199 # of schools; 1 # of Classes

Utah 2,233,169 State Pop.; 2,871 # of Wrestlers; 94 # of schools; 5 # of Classes

Vermont 608,827 State Pop.; 234 # of Wrestlers; 23 # of schools; 1 # of Classes

Virginia 7,078,515 State Pop.; 6,000 # of Wrestlers; 237 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Washington 5,894,121 State Pop.; 7,785 # of Wrestlers; 273 # of schools; 4 # of Classes

West Virginia 1,808,344 State Pop.; 1,213 # of Wrestlers; 72 # of schools; 2 # of Classes

Wisconsin 5,363,675 State Pop.; 7,288 # of Wrestlers; 348 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

Wyoming 493,782 State Pop.; 1,080 # of Wrestlers; 50 # of schools; 3 # of Classes

[Y2CJ41]

Here is a more recent update

http://indianamat.com/stuff/statebreakdown.html

[indyt]

I totally agree. There are some really neat ideas out there to pump up wrestling and why not use the big stage at the end of the year at team state. Wow that would be cool. What an ending to what's going to be a great year. Let's bring a weekend of fun, fortified excitement to Center Grove and Indy at team state weekend. Let the ideas flow people!!!!!!

 

Btw, big h does not represent my views.  I speak for myself and our program

[PreparetoWin]

nice info chuck and y2...that is some info we can actually wrap our hands around.  Would you be willing to post that on the save team state thread that was started...hopefully we can start over with just good ideas and information like. Thanks

[Drooke]

1.   The team state tournament is in jeopardy.  This is a financial issue.  Attendance has decreased from 5000-6000 to an all-time love of 1250 last year.  I believe it runs deeper than just the economy or Ev. Mater Dei making the final 8.  If we want to save the tournament we must be in attendance. - Cale Hoover

 

I won't be in attendence for Team State this upcoming season but I would be interested in buying some tickets.  It would be quite impressive if the wrestling community stood up together and made a statement with purchasing tickets even if they couldn't attend either.  A small portion from school fundraisers could be used for this purpose.  If people are interested in this idea perhaps someone might be willing to to take the lead and actually be a recepient for the tickets where he/she could dole them out to youth groups or other organizations in the community.  Wrestlers are fighters, lets show the IHSAA just how much we care about Team State!

 

What Say You?

 

[Big Hawaiian]

I totally agree. There are some really neat ideas out there to pump up wrestling and why not use the big stage at the end of the year at team state. Wow that would be cool. What an ending to what's going to be a great year. Let's bring a weekend of fun, fortified excitement to Center Grove and Indy at team state weekend. Let the ideas flow people!!!!!!

 

Btw, big h does not represent my views.  I speak for myself and our program

 

Never claimed to have spoke for anyone check the quote,and I said I was not aware and would ask! If you would like to talk to me about something the phone works,lol

[Y2CJ41]

Once again .. Don't want this to get lost in the shuffle.

 

 

Why not start from scratch and go in and propose both Class for Team and Individual.  If you don't I fear that you will be fighting this same fight in 5 years.

 

Here is some info to chew on  State of Wisconsin is similar in size to Indiana in population and school numbers.

 

They have 3 classes, and their Individual state tournament goes on for 3 weeks (Indiana likes the 3 week idea)  They go Regional, Sectional and State.  With Team state 1 week after the Individual state for a total of 4 weeks.

 

You qualify for the Team Sectional by winning your Individual Regional's. 

 

There are 16 Regionals in Division 1,  16 Regionals in Div 2, and finally 16 Regionals in Div 3. 

 

The winners in Div 1 move on to 8 Sectionals with the winner of those sectional moving on to state for a grand total of 8 D1 Teams at state.

 

Div 2 has 16 Winners moving on to 4 Different Sectionals, (they will wrestle 2 dual meets on a Tuesday night to move on to State for a grand total of 4 D2 Teams going to state.

 

Div 3 is the same setup as Div 2.

 

 

State money figures from last year in Wisconsin

 

Individual Regional (all classes) $77,867

Individual Sectional (all classes) $104,804

Individual State (all classes) $489,526

 

Team Sectionals (all classes) $29,864

Team State (all classes) $60,049

 

I have tons more information that I dont care to type atm but if you have questions you can post them or pm me..

I know it is dated data, but in 2003 the IHSAA made $132,000 off both the team and individual state tournament series.  I can only imagine the fun we could have making the IHSAA $200,000 or 300,000 or gasp... 400,000 a year!  Wisconsin has 344 schools with wrestling, about 35 more than Indiana and about 800,000 less people in the state.

[indyt]

A few things,  I am so happy there is so much talk about this. It really shows we care. I am optimistic so I believe there is still a chance. Tomorrow we can either debate over this proposal or this way of running the team state but the bottom line right from Bobby himself is this.  We have to agree to succeed in these two areas

1. We have got to pull together and get our teams, coaches and fans to the team state. Be creative. Make it a weekend trip with a big clinic, something. We have to boost the attendance and prove it's worth

 

2. We can not send jv teams out to compete. Don't get me wrong. I can see why it's been done in the past. IHSAA will never understand it. Compete, use it to build., like jeffersonville has 

 

This will change how they see us and it

 

 

I POSTED THIS SEVERAL WEEKS AGO AND I SAID SOMETHING AT THE ANNUAL CLINIC ABOUT IT.  BOBBY WANTS TO SEE US COMPETE AND HE WANTSS TO SEE US OUR FANS, TEAMS AND WRESTLERS FILL THE STANDS. HE IS NOT HIP ON THE COACHES TROPHY.  I DONT UNDERSTAND HOW HE FEELS ITS FLAUNTED BUT THIS IS WHAT HE SAYS AND HAS BEEN SAYING.  FIX THIS AND WE HAVE A TEAM STATE.  FROM HIS MOUTH, IT IS NOT DEAD BUT RATHER ON LIFE SUPPORT.

[Matt2mat]

My oldest son attends UIndy as a Sports Management major, and he told me that IHSAA Assistant Commissioner, Theresia Wynns was a guest speaker in his Governance in Sports class today.  I know that she's not in charge of wrestling, but he said the question about Team State was proposed to her, and her response was that this will probably be the last year for it.  I personally hope that's not the case.

 

I just thought it was interesting that this subject is not only being discussed amongst the high school wrestling community, but it is also a topic of discussion at the college level.

[Jimtown 138]

My oldest son attends UIndy as a Sports Management major, and he told me that IHSAA Assistant Commissioner, Theresia Wynns was a guest speaker in his Governance in Sports class today.  I know that she's not in charge of wrestling, but he said the question about Team State was proposed to her, and her response was that this will probably be the last year for it.  I personally hope that's not the case.

 

I just thought it was interesting that this subject is not only being discussed amongst the high school wrestling community, but it is also a topic of discussion at the college level.

 

Interesting...

[XCard]

WOW! Glad I had 10.5 hours to read through most of the posts.  Actually it helped that the same thoughts were just reiterated in the most recent posts.  Well, y2, Karl, tspray, I think I am on board with the classing of both the individual and team.  I have always wanted to see the Team portion classed.  I am seeing the benefits classing the individual would have as well.  I actually think classing the individual would help in getting wrestlebacks implemented as well.  Karl, I know you are in favor of a 3 class system, but I say let's crawl before we can walk.  I would say a two class system would be a good start.  If we are getting 11,000 now to the Individual tourney, I think it is only logical to say that our attendance would go up with the addition of more wrestlers, which equals more revenue, which equals happy IHSAA.  For the Team portion, I say you would want to have 8 teams from each class participating.  I think we have seen the benefit of successful individuals affecting the long term performance but also interest to a paticular team.  Take Perry for instance, according to Coach Tonte was not very good but turned it around.  As the program begun having more success, it generated interest in the wresting program which is backed by the increase in numbers over the years.  Everyone wants to be part of a SUCCESSFUL program(which sometimes is interperted as WINNING by kids).  I think long term the popularity of the sport would grow under a classed individual tourney.  I would definitely miss the good ole days of the 14 matches at the end of the night Saturday, but heck it is still pretty electric in the semis when 2 matches are going on at the same time, wait that is 4 now.  I think we could still have a pretty electric atmosphere there with 2 State Title matches going on at once.  Heck I bet the folks at Conseco could even spotlight both mats for us if we asked them nicely.

 

 

Please forgive me if I am jummping around or not making much sense right now.  I am a little tired and ready to go home in a few.  Karl and Y2 on another note.  I do agree with some of the posts as well that your comments can be condescending  and sarcastic.  Those replies in my eyes are no better than the personel attacks made at you from certain individuals on the board.  Hey, your board though so I guess you are entitled to it.  ;D

 

Y2 nd Karl, question for both of you.  It seems that you both can be critical of the IHSWCA at times.  Have any of you considered  tryng for a position on the board?

 

Oh yeah this post was about Team State,  I am Pro keeping it around and PRO classing it now.

[BlackshirtD]

I think all this talk is interesting, but in the end I think you need to take it one step at a time..and it could be a lengthy process. Team State..obviously what do you have to do to fix it...butts in seats..what puts butt in seats? More teams involved classed or not. Classed seems to make the most sense. I would definetly not propose more than 2 classes the first time around. As far as the individual..this is the one that would be quite difficult to get changed. The Ihsaa is not going to be inclined to tinker with something that they know they will make a decent amount on. The arguement of the classes there to add more fans is logical, but could be a fleeting thing..like the hoops tourney attendance. What I mean is the fans that went every year without even having a team in the finals..they stopped going they they had before because it lost it's specialness. For my money there is nothing greater than the individual finals. It is a show that people go to see and to tinker with it might ruin it for the casual fan.  I think there will come a day when the IHSAA will have to class it. I just don't think that is a topic that spending the energy on at this time is very beneficial. Walk first..do what you have to class and save the team state..I have felt, and I do feel the INDIVIDUAL portion should remain in tact...that being said some arguements have opened my ears..but I believe and I think there are many more that truly believe tinkering with the individual finals would be a mistake...I know people that don't even care for wrestling but still go down for the spectacle of the finals..It's a great event...I absolutley respect all of your opinions on classing individual state..and I understand...but I just think if the energy is focussed on the team state aspect..and get it to catch on...maybe you sell it to the naysayers like myself for the individual. You can show numbers all you want about other states and their incomes from their tournament, but I would imagine the IHSAA in their lust for the mighty dollar would have explored this financially already. I appreciate the passion for the classing, but I also feel like if you don't share that opinion on this board you are made to feel like a lesser contributer, or somehow less of a fan, or even ignorant and I don't think that is going to help convince people to change their minds on this.  All I'm saying is it seems like the wheels are spinning on this topic..Saving the team state should be paramount..and if it is agreed for the most part that classing it could do such a thing then ALL of the focus should be on that aspect for now..sell that to the Indy boys first..then..once things are rolling..get your energy on the individual one if neccessary. I just have a feeling if you can't get the team classed and most importantly saved..you won't get the other one. It's like all or nothing to some people on here and the same people who want to grow the sport seem like well if they are not going to class the team then they SHOULD just end it..that seems self serving to me and has nothing to do with growing the sport. Never stop fighting for what you believe in..but when it's not falling the way you want...and if you really want to make change..start small..small victories lead up to winning the war. Work on wrestlebacks if that what you see fit..work on the Ihsaa on travel restrictions that prohibit teams from competing all over...do whatever you can to make it better..little by little..but man it just seems like on here if you don't think the idividual tourney should be classed then you are dumb..just like the IHSAA is...and if you don't class the team state then it's not worth having...and if you are going to class it then automatically class the individual one...Love it for what is is, not for what it is not..but strive to make it better in the future..but give it a future first.

[Oscar]

Team State Wrestling is just for fun and it will come down to $$$$$$$. Does it help grow the sport? Probably, but it is only open to a few teams. Mostly 5A and Private schools who legally or illegally(This is obviously a grey area) recruit,entice ,encourage or whatever you want to call it, the top wrestlers to their school. The old way kept the sport more pure and did not lend itself to sometimes unethical practice one would have to adopt in order to have a chance to get to team state. The only way  I am going to team state is if my school sponsers it and then I get to attend for FREE. $$$$$$$$. There are other ways to grow our sport. Healthier growth I Hope.

 

Let Us put it to a vote. 311 schools in a 1 Class system. Each school gets ONE vote. Bye Bye Team State

[Sponge Bob]

Is it about Dollars or is it about what the sport should be.Teaching good values like integrity, hard work, sportsmanship and ethics. Team State is mostly about egotism. Get rid of team state along with the egos. Let the kids have the sport back. It can all be decided at Conseco. If you raise the cost of admission by$1 per session you could make more added dollars  than you make at team state. It is an economic no brainer. I recall one of the commentators on this board once tell me no one cares about anything but first place anyway. One Champion One Day. Makes sense to me.

[ENoblewrestling]

Is it about Dollars or is it about what the sport should be.Teaching good values like integrity, hard work, sportsmanship and ethics. Team State is mostly about egotism. Get rid of team state along with the egos. Let the kids have the sport back. It can all be decided at Conseco. If you raise the cost of admission by$1 per session you could make more added dollars  than you make at team state. It is an economic no brainer. I recall one of the commentators on this board once tell me no one cares about anything but first place anyway. One Champion One Day. Makes sense to me.

 

How is team state about egotism.  Doesn't the team aspect of wrestling teach all of the things you listed and more?  It also deals with every kid on the team not just the studs.  Are the good kids the only ones we care to work for?

[Y2CJ41]

If you're not first, you're last.  That is my motto.

[Sponge Bob]

How is team state about egotism.  Doesn't the team aspect of wrestling teach all of the things you listed and more?  It also deals with every kid on the team not just the studs.  Are the good kids the only ones we care to work for?

 

I am reading a little between the lines. I am referring to Ethics when it comes to bragging rights for schools and coaches. This idea of chasing a state championship as a team leads to some unethical behavior that has nothing to do with what is best for the kids. I would like to go back to the old way and see what happens. The idea of creating a circus to fill the seats seems a little silly to me.

[CoachW33]

Is it about Dollars or is it about what the sport should be.Teaching good values like integrity, hard work, sportsmanship and ethics. Team State is mostly about egotism. Get rid of team state along with the egos. Let the kids have the sport back. It can all be decided at Conseco. If you raise the cost of admission by$1 per session you could make more added dollars  than you make at team state. It is an economic no brainer. I recall one of the commentators on this board once tell me no one cares about anything but first place anyway. One Champion One Day. Makes sense to me.

 

 

Alright so having a team championship creates an ego issue? SO according to your post getting rid of team state and putting in solely on the wrestlers would correct this ego issue we have? Sounds a little backward to me. As an individual you get that it's all about me mentality and you only worry about yourself. With a team atmosphere you may still have SOME of this. However, I believe much of it depends on the attitude of the coach and how he brings his team along. If the head coach builds a team first approach within the team there will be less room for an ego to grow.  I just thought it was an interesting approach you took stating that by taking away a TEAM portion of state and making it all about the INDIVIDUAL, you would help wrestlers with their ego issues.

 

 

I am reading a little between the lines. I am referring to Ethics when it comes to bragging rights for schools and coaches. This idea of chasing a state championship as a team leads to some unethical behavior that has nothing to do with what is best for the kids. I would like to go back to the old way and see what happens. The idea of creating a circus to fill the seats seems a little silly to me.

 

You still run into the individual egos here. Coaches still measure their success in part by how many kids they can get to state and how many they can get on a podium. Remember the team state as it currently stands only affects 20 teams at best. The ethical issue needs to be dealt with by the schools AD and administration. Getting rid of team state WILL NOT help this issue. To think otherwise is just silly.

[tillhund200]

Rumors of Team State being eliminated have again surfaced.  I have heard it is a done deal and I have heard it has yet to be decided.  I could not possibly be more adament about the importance of team state for our sport.  For me, it could not be more clear cut.  I have heard only minimal discussion about this on here and wanted to bring it to everyone's attention.  I know there are some coaches that for some reason are against team state, but overwhelmingly the coaches I have talked to want to keep team state. 

 

Please do NOT turn this into a wrestlebacks vs. Team State Debate...I am in favor of both.  Losing one does not guarantee the other.  AD's were told those are separate issues.

 

We are just talking about whether our TEAM STATE CHAMPIONS should be determined by an Individual State Tournament or by a Team State Tournament.

 

Here is my argument in favor of team state - it is very long and your commets are appreciated. 

 

   Darrick Snyder

Head Wrestling Coach

Mishawaka High School

 

RE:  Team Wrestling State Finals

 

To Whom It May Concern,

 

Why is the Team Wrestling State Finals so important to our sport?: 

 

1.) Everyone agrees, including the IHSAA, that wrestling in dual meets are important to the growth of our sport.  Why would any team even wrestle in dual meets if the true state champions aren't going to be determined by Team State?  Teams that want to compete for state championships would have to go back to long Saturday Individual Tournaments where we will gain no new fans and lose current ones.  This is going to cause our sport to NOT grow and eventually diminish.

 

2.) I have heard it stated that Team State takes away from the luster of the Individual State Tournament.  I completely disagree with this statement.  Participants at Individual State have a chance to win an INDIVIDUAL State Championship.  There are still 10,000 plus people in attendance.  It remains an incredible environment.  I would argue that if any luster is lost, it is because of the change of venue.  Conseco is a very impressive arena, but everyone that I have talked to feels there was something about Market Square Arena that made it a notch better. 

 

3.)  If the Team State Tournament is abolished, 112 fewer wrestlers will experience the

thrill of competing in a State Tournament.  This is not counting all of the JV wrestlers that bust their tails for us, to be included in Team State...they get to warm-up with the team, walk in the parade of champions, sit mat side, knowing they could be bumped into the lineup for one reason or another.  They may not wrestle, but they still get to experience the thrill of the State Finals.  They WILL remember it FOREVER. 

 

Mishawaka brings fifty wrestlers to Team State.  I know teams like Mater Dei and Perry Meridian bring more...so we are talking approximately 300 kids experiencing something they will remember forever, as opposed to a handful of the elite kids in the room.

 

4.) No matter how hard some of our wrestlers train, they will NEVER place at state.  Right now the worst guy in a team?s lineup is just as important as the best guy....and gets just as much, or more, attention.  I wish I had a team full of state placers, but I do not.  So if the state tournament is eliminated, wouldn't coaches obviously focus on the best kids that can help them win a state championship? What is the motivation of a kid that is not at the level to make it to Individual State?  Some of my most focused and motivated guys are the least talented, but they know that they could be the difference in us making it to Team State or possibly winning the championship.  They are just as important as the State Champion in my room. I would never neglect anyone in my room, but I have sixty plus guys on the team right now and only so many coaches.  I have never been in a room where everyone gets equal attention.  That would be completely impossible.  Right now in most rooms, average kids (which by far make up most of our rooms) get just as much or more attention than the best few kids.  If we do away with Team State, the focus would turn away from most kids and be back on a few.  Why wouldn't it?  No one will be neglected in most rooms, but the world isn't perfect.  We do not have one coach per kid, so the focus for any coach that I know will always be on which wrestler can win the school a State Championship.

 

5.) A team full of forfeits with four studs could be declared the TEAM State Champions.  This doesn?t make sense and is bad for the reputation of our sport.  A weak team has won individual state and has been declared Team State Champions or Runners-up when they clearly did not have the best TEAM.  Example: The 1999 State Runner-up Jeff Team...  fifth at Sectional and five forfeits, and they got TEAM State Runner-up.  I mean no disrespect to that team and their few studs, that I am sure were awesome, but this is not good for our sport. 

 

Would anyone say that having a team with a few studs that can win a Team State Championship, despite having few numbers and several forfeits, be good for our sport?  It will decrease the number of kids that go out....and will take us away from the Team aspect that makes the most popular sports so well liked.  We will also be ruining a rare chance to teach our student-athletes crucial life skills such as cooperation, team work, collaboration, etc.  These are skills that are too rare and important to disregard. 

 

If the TEAM State Champions are going to be determined by the Individual State Tournament, so much for working at creating a team to win state or make it to state.  All I need are three or four studs to win state.  Forget about all the hard working average kids?we will all have to focus on getting our 4 best kids ready to win a state title.  I can forfeit half the weights and still be state champions.  It is embarrassing to our sport to have Individual State determine the Team State Champions.  This is going to cause our sport to NOT grow and eventually diminish.

 

6.) Having a real TEAM State Championship makes wrestling more of a TEAM sport.  Look at the most successful sports - football, basketball, baseball - what do they all have in common?  They are TEAM sports! People like rooting for a team and watching teams compete against each other, head to head, to declare the champion. The less popular sports - swimming, gymnastics, etc. - are individual in essence and less popular.  This is not a coincidence. 

 

Getting rid of Team State would make our sport less popular to the general public and eliminate one of the most exciting days of wrestling we can offer.  Isn't this what we should be trying to avoid?   How much sense does it make, and how is it beneficial, to eliminate one of our finest days? 

 

I think our sport is in the process of growing, but it takes time and patience.  We have more kids out at Mishawaka than we have ever had in the last 20 years.  All of our area schools' numbers are up, every coach I have talked to says their numbers have increased.  The numbers are absolutely up because of the Team aspect of TEAM STATE.  Our current wrestlers are going to grow up eventually - make friends, have babies...doesn't anyone see that this is going to cause more people to get exposed to wrestling and possibly become fans?...but it takes time.  A lot of time!  I think fans understand more about wrestling than we think.  My wife is learning...still learning some scoring...pretty much knows who has more points and likes it when we pick guys up and turn them.  She has become a fan because of me.  Getting more wrestlers on our teams and going through our programs will lead them to possibly becoming fans later, or may give them the opportunity to expose someone else to wrestling who could become a fan.  There is no way that eliminating Team State will help the growth of our sport, so why do it?

 

7.) We need to realize that not everyone is a wrestling fanatic.  If we want to make our sport grow, Team State is the key!  I don't think anyone would say watching two state placers bang it out for fifth place at Individual State isn't exciting.  It is still important for those guys, coaches and fans...but what about everyone else on the team?  Our concern shouldn't be motivating the best guys...they are already motivated...that's why they are the best...and there is the individual state for them to shine at.  But how many guys are we going to lose if we get rid of team state?  I know I would definitely lose a good deal of them. 

 

Multiple times a year, I hear guys tell me that the only reason they put themselves through such a hard season is for the team.  Those type of kids will STOP wrestling.  Did our staff help our past state champions and placers?  Absolutely!  Were they self-motivated too - definitely.  But I do not have a bunch of guys like Josh Harper and Travis Thomas that eat rusty nails and chew on broken glass!  I have a handful of them, but to the majority it is a sport and not a lifestyle.  For the average guy to fall in love with the sport and help its growth, there has to be the TEAM State Championship. 

 

8.) The IHSWCA sponsoring a dual meet tournament that determines the Coaches Team State Champions would not mean anything.  The team tournament needs to be the one recognized by the IHSAA or it isn't going to mean much to make it or win it.  I know we will focus on whatever declares the true state championship. 

 

Again, we have won the Coaches Trophy at Individual State the last 4 out of 5 years.  It is nice and a cool trophy, but that is about it...no excitement...no rings, no parade, nothing...just a nice trophy. 

 

We all want to win the true state championship, if that is at Individual State Tournament, that is the only one that matters...Any coach who wants to win the State Championship will need to:  drop every dual meet they can...focus on their few best kids...that's what they will have to do to win the true state championship.  You win state while most of your guys are at home ? makes no sense and will kill our sport.

 

I love working with the average kids who bust their tails, who comprise most of our teams, especially because they are the ones that often make the difference at team state.

 

9.)   Has anyone considered why numbers have gone down?  The economy is very poor currently...this is playing a huge role.  Also, last year was a unique year...Mishawaka was huge favorites.  I think teams didn't bring a huge crowd because we were such big favorites.  Yorktown was the only team truly considered to have a shot and they are a small school.  I am not trying to appear arrogant?just trying to be honest and explain the low attendance.  I believe the numbers will go up this year as there is no clear cut favorite.  Several teams will have a realistic chance to win.

 

10.) I would be in favor a class team state.  This would give more teams a chance to qualify and win.  It would also generate more fans and money.  Michigan?s Team State is classed and VERY well attended.  THE IHSWCA MUST COME TOGETHER AND FIGHT TO KEEP TEAM STATE OR OUR ENTIRE SPORT WILL SUFFER!

 

A testimony about how incredible Team State is:

I talked to Ian Hinton a couple of hours before he wrestled for the Individual State Championship a few years back.  I asked him if he was nervous and he said, ?Oh yeah, we match up terrible with Merrillville.?  I laughed and told him that I was talking about his individual match and he replied, "Winning Team State is way more important to me than winning Individual State. Coach, if I had to pick, I would be okay with losing tonight... as long as it meant we would win next week as a Team". 

 

We have to remember that it shouldn't be about doing what is best for our team, but what is BEST FOR THE SPORT OF WRESTLING AND ITS GROWTH. 

 

If we didn't have team state since I started coaching, Mishawaka would have been ?state champions? the last 4 out of 5 years.  Even with that being said, I would NEVER want to get rid of team state.  Winning one true Team State Title at Team State means so much more than four the old way would have.  I am not trying to be a "know it all", but even if it was better for our school, which it very well could be, I would still want Team State because it is going to help our sport grow.  Eliminating it would greatly hurt the popularity, growth, involvement and excitement of our sport.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Darrick Snyder

Mishawaka High School

Head Wrestling Coach

 

Darrick, you?re preaching to the choir, if we do away with team state Mishawaka will just be joining the ranks of most schools in Indiana. The vast majority of us in Indiana especially smaller school haven?t had that building tool ?team State? in our programs for years. Some of us never did. Most coaches have understood at best, they might win a sectional championship and then maybe get a couple kids off to state.

Don?t get me wrong I would like to see this problem resolved.

Your argument is that team state helps build and maintain a strong program at Mishawaka. So in order for the team state championship to be motivational tool for other schools you first have to make it obtainable. That brings us back to classes. Not having classes is one thing that makes Indiana different from most other states. Lots of coaches would hate to see that change made but, we are talking about the survival of team state and the growth of our smaller wrestling programs. With that I believe we?re in agreement. 

 

It?s the little wheels that make the big wheels turn.

 

Gary Kleinknight