Team State Debate

[dstruck]

My opinion differs.  But I am glad we both shared.

[ENoblewrestling]

So what would you rather see in place?  Would our current flawed system that shows a true champion be better if it was replaced by a flawed system (same 5-6 teams will be winning it) that doesn't show a true team champ?  

[PreparetoWin]

Well said Danny....the negativity is so thick in this thread.  You and I are good friends, wrestled together, coached against each other and it makes me proud as to what you have done with your hard work and dedication to postive thinking and attitudes.  It takes a real ggod coach to teach through hard times and adversity instead of throwing your hands up and saying I cant get my kids to be positive cuz they lose to much, so no one else can do it either.  Its much harder to teach kids about life lessons when they are not winning on the mat than to say I cant get my kids to be positive cuz they lose.  If I remember correctly, Jeffersonville was ranked in the state a few years back and they got shutout by that team from Michigan.  No kids were hanging there heads saying well we suck we lost we might as well give up!!! I am glad there arent many coaches who believe that way, but you will always have a few, cuz its easier to have built in excuses why coaches dont teach and have no chance to get better.  Questioning another coaches abilites to be positive, finding easy excuses is just plain easier.  It hides deficiancies when coaches use wins and losses as the only way to fire a team up and keep them positive.  You and I have come from good backgrounds of coaches who find ways to teach about life through wrestling, and make lessons out of hardtimes and how to stay positive during struggles.  I like how you use each class to say "you may not win state this year, but you are an important step for a future team to win and that makes us all winners" that gives kids purpose to work hard for the next class or the class after to know they were part of making them better, making the program better, and if a coach cant teach life lessons and get kids fired up about being part of a bigger picture, maybe a look in the mirror needs to be taken.  Concerning yourself with the losses of this year, isnt beneficial to looking at the successes of building toward the future.  I really hope you continue to spread your positive attitude, you kids and program are top notch, and I wish you nothing but continued success!

[Y2CJ41]

So what would you rather see in place?  Would our current flawed system that shows a true champion be better if it was replaced by a flawed system (same 5-6 teams will be winning it) that doesn't show a true team champ?  

I would like a better opportunity to compete for a state championship.  So I say no to a one class team state and would gladly have the team champions crowned at individual state.  As long as it is a one class team state it does not have my support.

 

I would venture to say that if Garrett wins a state championship at individual state we will be considered the true champions where it counts...in the record book.

[italianmom]

Classing Team State would help Wrestling in Indiana, but I think "explode" might be a bit of an over statement.  I do think classing the whole thing would cause wrestling to reach some new participation levels.  I honestly think if someone were to file a class action lawsuit against the IHSAA they could be forced to class all sports.  At present they do not give all student-athletes the same opportunity and as Title IX has shown us America is all about equal opportunity.  Showing that almost all other states class all sport, and testimony from college coaches saying that kids opportunities for college recruitment are deminished due to fewer classes, would probably make for a very good case.

 

I was told back when my kids were in high school that athletics didn't have to accomodate and they could discriminate if they wanted.  The district felt strongly on this because they felt they had the IHSAA support.  I don't think a class action lawsuit against the IHSAA would work.  Good luck coming up with another plan.

[KarlHungus]

I was told back when my kids were in high school that athletics didn't have to accomodate and they could discriminate if they wanted.  The district felt strongly on this because they felt they had the IHSAA support.  I don't think a class action lawsuit against the IHSAA would work.  Good luck coming up with another plan.

 

It did when a girl and her father sued to get womens pole vault added as an event.

[Coach Willmann]

I don't understand all of the banter.  I will preface by stating I am for class at all levels.  I wrestled at a small school, started my coaching career at a small school, and am now at a large school.  I see the difference in everything.  I've gone through it all.

 

I cannot understand how losing the team tournament is an option for anyone.  Here are some thoughts I have.

1. Who does it hurt if we have it?

2. If we are ever going to get to class wrestling, how does losing a part of our tournament help our cause?

 

I am strongly against the belief that you have to start with strong individuals to build team success.  Program building is so much more than just the individual.  If you focus on the team, individual success will take care of itself.  Danny put it best.  If you teach kids to work hard for each other, then by doing their jobs for the team, their individual success will follow.

 

Is our current system flawed?  Yes

Is awarding the team state champion based on the individual tournament a flawed system?  Yes

Should we replace one flawed system with another? The obvious answer is no!

 

Why isn't there much parody in our state?  Being successful in our sport is taxing on a coach.  I look at the greats like Jim Tonte, Royce Deckard, Trent McCormick, Scott Vlink and I wonder how in the world have they made it this long in our sport?  It takes countless hours, lots of sleepless nights, traveling all over the country, and a great amount of elbow grease to succeed at the level these men do.  If we go back to the way the state tournament was scored before, that doesn't show the true measure of a "team." 

 

A few examples that I have put on here before.

As a team last year we took 9th at the individual state tournament.

We lost 11 dual meets last year just in our area of the state.

 

Lowell won the coaches trophy in 2000.  They did not even make it to the team state tournament that year.

 

Don't let the state tournament disappear because you won't get what you want right away.  I promise that I will fight for a class system.  We must save what we have right now first.

 

[bharmon01]

I was talking with someone yesterday that has a pretty good connection to the IHSAA. He said that even if there was a large turn out for team state he didn't think that would save it. Bobby wants it to go away. When I mentioned the talk about class he said that Track was going to propose a 2 class system this year. This might just be the right time to go in and propose a 2 class system for team state. My source said they don't want to mess with the individual tournament, but they do miss the team scoring. They want to go back to the old way of scoring and crowning a state champion. To be honest I miss watching the team scores flash up like in the old days of MSA . If the majority of the IHSWCA wants class for team state I think this would be a good time to go for it. You can't worry about maybe not getting it. What are we proposing this year? How many of our membership are in favor of class team state? Who will host these sites for team state - sectional, regional, semi-state and state ? Do we have enough officials to cover these sites? These are questions the IHSAA will want answers to.

I don't have a problem with class team state, but what impact will this have on individual state? I think our Individual state tournament is the greatest show the IHSAA puts on and I have had a number of IHSAA members, Principals and ADs tell me the same. They don't want to change it. Friday night opening and Saturday night under the lights are an unbelieveable experience both as a spectator and participant. I like  a one class individual state champion.

[MattM]

Quote from: MattM on Yesterday at 07:55:28 PM

Certain schools seem to be hotbeds of talent and continue to produce top teams each year.  Even in classed sport you see the same teams often make it to state or semi-state every year.  

 

The difference is that the other sports have classes.

 

It's unsupported comments like this that make me want to run a cheese grater on my forehead.  If that is actually true, support it, otherwise stay out of the debate.  Making decisions on your hunches and best guesses is no way to run a state tournament.

 

Support it?  Just look at the teams who are in the IHSAA state finals and semi-finals every year in any sport.  Most of them are the same teams over and over again with a few new ones that find their way into the mix.  Doesn't matter if its 5A or 1A most of the teams are repeats yearly because that area continues to grow and develop sucessful programs.  I'm not claiming they win every year but they are usually in the mix for possible winning teams along with a few other teams that switch out every year or two.  I'm not sure how you can say this is an unsported hunch when it clear in the amount of state finals and semi-state participation some schools have had.  As I said though we do seem more change at the sectional and regional winners since there are more winner so obviously more chances to smeek in.  And those other teams winning a sectional or regiona leac hyear take pride in it.  Thus growing their schools  and communities support in that sport.

[Y2CJ41]

Is there any quantitative proof of this?  Any statistics you want to show to prove your theory?

[Oscar]

Damn !  I am getting dizzy with all this stuff. I see hidden agendas from all sides. Money issues, parity issues,fairness issues,logistics issues and the fact that

 

this whole thing is just a big pain in the ass. The last thing I read tells me this is a done dead deal and given all the issues probably should be. It is giving

 

me a headache and I am sure it is giving Bobby Cox one too.   The old way is easier and the money can be made up at individual state. Every one seemed to

 

be ok with the old way for th first 100 years of Indiana Wrestling. Who dreamed up Tean State? How many other states have this format. It probably was

 

well intended at its inception but too many things have spun out of control. I could take it either way but I would like to see if  the old way might change

 

some things for the better. Here is a  statistic I would like to see. The number of kids who go on to wrestle in college from team state qualifiers vs non team

 

state qualifiers. This is just one reason I see Individual state as more significant and why not make it a bigger and better show and stop spending so much

 

time with the team state thing.

[ENoblewrestling]

in wrestling you could point to the fact that decatur, mishawaka, the region, indy and eville consistantly have top teams and this shows that in these citys and areas wrestling is more popular and that tends to produce results.  How is it that bellmont is always the top team in our area?  Its because it is a hotbed for wrestling, people like it there its spread through the whole county really if you look at a.c. and s.a. If this doesn't have a shred of truth then why is bellmont always so good? In writing this I know that they have great coaches but the fact that wrestling is popular there and thus produces a 'hotbed' for wrestlers.

I think it would be resonable to look at football and the success that comes out of fort wayne, indy, and evansville and say the same.  Indy and fort wayne dominate track.  Look at homestead and park tudor in tennis or burris in volleyball.  I think even with out a millions stats to back it up results show that some areas are hotbeds in certain sports.

[ENoblewrestling]

Damn !  I am getting dizzy with all this stuff. I see hidden agendas from all sides. Money issues, parity issues,fairness issues,logistics issues and the fact that this whole thing is just a big pain in the ass. The last thing I read tells me this is a done dead deal and given all the issues probably should be. It is giving me a headache and I am sure it is giving Bob Cox one too.   The old way is easier and the money can be made up at individual state. Every one seemed to be ok with the old way for th first 100 years of Indiana Wrestling. Who dreamed up Tean State? How many other states have this format. It probably was well intended at its inception but too many things have spun out of control. I could take it either way but I would like see if  the old way might change some things for the better. Here is statistic I would like to see. The number of kids who go on to wrestle in college from team state qualifiers vs non team state qualifiers. This is just one reason I see Individual state as more significant and why not make it a bigger and better show and stop spending so much time with the team state thing.

 

So you don't care about finding the best team? Why even have a team side if a ream doesn't deside it?

[pdub81]

"There isn't much fight in kids if they have little chance for success."  Quote from Y2.

WOW is all I can say after reading that comment.  Coach Struck makes a great post detailing how he motivates his TEAM to be successful and this is what you come back with.  WOW. 

 

I had a 171 freshmen who was 2-17 last year.  The dual against Carmel comes down to him.  He gets beat by 13 pts, but we win the dual meet because he didn't get teched or pinned.  When the ref blew the whistle at the end of the match he raised both his hands like he had just won a state title!  EVERYTIME this kid took the mat he had FIGHT!  Whether it was an individual tourney or a dual it didn't matter.  It's all about how you sell it Y2.  You can continue to be negative towards the idea of TEAM success and how to achieve it, but it comes down to us, the coaches, being good salesmen to pitch an idea about team success that can change the mindset of a community.  The quesiton every one of us has to ask is if we CAN and/or WANT to do it.

 

"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity.  The optimist sees the opporttunity in every difficulty."-Winston Churchill

 

Pat Wilkins

Head Wrestling Coach

Portage High School

[Y2CJ41]

So please enlighten me how I sell to our kids that we are going to win team state when we get beat by two team regional opponents 41-25 and 55-12?  How do you sell it to kids you will make up 43 points in a dual? 

 

At a small school the word team gets thrown out right before conference.  We wrestle all duals during the season until the week before sectional.  We sell the team portion during the regular season, after that it comes down to the individuals.  Once the conference tournament starts it is time for the kids to be selfish and look out for themselves.  If it so happens we have a good day and take home a trophy at conference or sectional that is great, but our goals are to advance as many kids through the state series as possible.

 

The Garrett program would never be where it is today without the individual success we had.  When kids join the team they very rarely want to be the varsity wrestler that doesn't get pinned, but they want to be like Chris Wengerd, Trevor Moe and Zac McCray. Once the individual success came the team success followed because the number of kids in the program rose. 

 

When you already have studs in the room you can build a program with team first, but at small schools you have to generate interest from individual success first.  If you don't generate that interest quickly your program will fail miserably because they can have success in other sports a lot easier.

[Oscar]

So you don't care about finding the best team? Why even have a team side if a ream doesn't deside it?

It is decided by a team. It is just a different way. This is the same way the NCAA decides Team National  Championship. What is good enough for the NCAA should be good enough for the state of Indiana. The old way puts focus on developing the individual to the highest level. The higher you place your individuals the greater the chance for a Championship.It is more of a win - win situation. Individuals are not asked to compromise their best chance at individual accomplishment to accommidate the team to fill the line up in such a way to earn the most points for the team.

Team to team scoring is a whole differnt mathimatical formula than team tournament scoring.  I believe the team tournament scoring may keep the thing more focused in the right place. On the individual kids who are working to get to the next level.

[ENoblewrestling]

So please enlighten me how I sell to our kids that we are going to win team state when we get beat by two team regional opponents 41-25 and 55-12?  How do you sell it to kids you will make up 43 points in a dual? 

 

At a small school the word team gets thrown out right before conference.  We wrestle all duals during the season until the week before sectional.  We sell the team portion during the regular season, after that it comes down to the individuals.  Once the conference tournament starts it is time for the kids to be selfish and look out for themselves.  If it so happens we have a good day and take home a trophy at conference or sectional that is great, but our goals are to advance as many kids through the state series as possible.

 

The Garrett program would never be where it is today without the individual success we had.  When kids join the team they very rarely want to be the varsity wrestler that doesn't get pinned, but they want to be like Chris Wengerd, Trevor Moe and Zac McCray. Once the individual success came the team success followed because the number of kids in the program rose. 

 

When you already have studs in the room you can build a program with team first, but at small schools you have to generate interest from individual success first.  If you don't generate that interest quickly your program will fail miserably because they can have success in other sports a lot easier.

 

Didn't bellmont almost come back from a similar score against yorktown early in the year? They didn't do it but it was darn close.

[ENoblewrestling]

It is decided by a team. It is just a different way. This is the same way the NCAA decides Team National  Championship. What is good enough for the NCAA should be good enough for the state of Indiana. The old way puts focus on developing the individual to the highest level. The higher you place your individuals the greater the chance for a Championship.It is more of a win - win situation. Individuals are not asked to compromise their best chance at individual accomplishment to accommidate the team to fill the line up in such a way to earn the most points for the team.

Team to team scoring is a whole differnt mathimatical formula than team tournament scoring.  I believe the team tournament scoring may keep the thing more focused in the right place. On the individual kids who are working to get to the next level.

 

I've read the ncaa is looking for a way to do a dual championship. The ncaa also finds their football champion without a playoff and through computers and rankings, they font always get it right With this logic should a one one one tournament deside the best basketball team? No matter how you cut it it does not show the best team.  Why would anyone who isn't a stud even matter if that was the situation. Its not in any way a ream championship.

[pdub81]

I am not telling you to sell the idea about winning team state.  I'm saying we all need to sell the idea of team success.  Success means different things to different people and it may vary from year to year.  What you want your kids to think team success is, is up to you and the school's coaching staff.  As far as your Team Regional opponents situation goes, I'd say that we are in a similar situation.  This past year we lost to Crown Point twice before team regionals and Merrillville kicked our butts.  We also knew that if we did win we would've had to face Mishawaka 1st round of Team State.  Mishawaka beat us by 20 or so earlier in the season.  Yet another reason for our guys to potentially give up at Team regional.  We could have easily let the wrestlers concentrate on their individual success and say let's pack it in and forget about the team regional.  But we didn't allow it.  We tried our best to plant the seed of "what-if".  What if we pull off the upset?  What if this guy wouldn't have got pinned, what if we bumped and put in Johnny who fights like hell, but isn't very good?    Maybe he can pull something off!  What if they're having an off day?  What if someone misses weight, or is sick?  You never know with high school kids.  Stuff happens that could make up some pts.  But, did all our selling work?  In the W-L column it didn't work, but what we saw out of our kids that night shows us it infact did work.  We lost to Crown Point by 7pts (our closest margin of defeat in our 3 duals).  Also, just to clarify.......I don't have the answers that are specific to your situation, I'm just a person who likes a challenge and likes to find the positive in things instead of the negative and that comment about kids not having fight bugged me.

 

[indyt]

I can help on this one. The 40-50 to 20 or so score can be changed over time. You preach to your program kids like Coach Wilkins explained to not give up the fall or quality decision and you coach up 3 more wins out of kids who are willing to battle to the end with you cause they see you work your ass off for them to be successful. You do this year in and year out and sooner than you think the love of winning duals for exceeds their individual accolades.

I know it's tough. It was frustrating those first few years at PM. It was disheartening to lose to almost everyone we faced including all the smalls schools, inner city schools, you name it.

We have had so many program kids who are there just to help the team. Kids who will not quit as seniors because they may be called upon one day. You win dual meets with heart not studs. We have never been blessed with studs. In fact, it's amazing to me what believing in your teammates can do for A kid individually As well  It's team first and always should be. It teaches all the things about life we want our kids to know.

[Oscar]

I've read the ncaa is looking for a way to do a dual championship. The ncaa also finds their football champion without a playoff and through computers and rankings, they font always get it right With this logic should a one one one tournament deside the best basketball team? No matter how you cut it it does not show the best team.  Why would anyone who isn't a stud even matter if that was the situation. Its not in any way a ream championship.

Basketball??????  Better tell Iowa that National title don't mean squat. Not me ! I'll send them your regards HA  ;D

[Oscar]

I can help on this one. The 40-50 to 20 or so score can be changed over time. You preach to your program kids like Coach Wilkins explained to not give up the fall or quality decision and you coach up 3 more wins out of kids who are willing to battle to the end with you cause they see you work your ass off for them to be successful. You do this year in and year out and sooner than you think the love of winning duals for exceeds their individual accolades.

I know it's tough. It was frustrating those first few years at PM. It was disheartening to lose to almost everyone we faced including all the smalls schools, inner city schools, you name it.

We have had so many program kids who are there just to help the team. Kids who will not quit as seniors because they may be called upon one day. You win dual meets with heart not studs. We have never been blessed with studs. In fact, it's amazing to me what believing in your teammates can do for A kid individually As well  It's team first and always should be. It teaches all the things about life we want our kids to know.

Not one stud on all those teams ????? HMMMM  Really ?? Spin Baby Spin.You will not and I repeat will not get to team state without a

 

core of studs. Teaching, now I can go for that. Do we teach them how to fill a roster so we can get to team state? Just wondering. Do we teach them the

 

importance of getting an education? If Possible beyond high school. Just wondering?  I really think this team state thing has become a load.I wonder if Bobby

 

 

Cox gives a ...hit(excuse me) about my perspective. Spin Baby Spin.

[PreparetoWin]

Some people will never understand with words in a forum. Its not a fault some people are just more hands on learners than reading words.  Honestly Y2, I listen to alot of what you have to say cuz I think you are very knowledgable and factual..but if you can not figure out how to coach kids about small victories, life lessons, bigger picture (future teams) then what you should do is talk to one of the coaches who have commented on this subject and ask if you can sit in on some practices...or go on some summer trips with some of these coaches who believe that W and L arent the only measuring stick of success.  I believe you will see that if these kids who buy into the small successes, hard work, bigger picture, you will get kids to come back to your practice room and help coach and wrestle with the next generation. These kids might teach your youth program, these kids might recruit for you, they might get there own kids to wrestle years from now.  Many successful programs are generational, by the time the second and third generation of kids get there they are born into wrestling.  Back to point, these kids who bleed the colors of your program becuase you have taught them about life, might only be a 15-20 match winner at best, but sometimes the best coaches arent the best wrestlers.  So now these kids that come back are teaching your positive attitude and technique to youth or whatever.  If you dont have a few kids coming back from college or after work to help out then I would say something is a miss.  I know some very small schools that have generations of farm families that they keep reloading with, or have two or three kids that cant wait to come back and help on their college brakes, or kids that come home to get jobs in their small town and help out when they can with their team.  If this isnt happening maybe your kids arent feeling a positive, life impact from your program...I dont know.  But cant you see how this benefits a program.  I mean keeping your kids together from elementary school all the way to high school with a united team ideology in mind, and these elemntary kids are being taught by someone who has already came through your program and believes what you have taught them.  Its an extension of you.  I really cant comprehend how a program large or small does not have this attitude.  If this doesnt make sense then I would say you need to follow a program who believes this way and see how they do it...also there are alot of good books on how to be a positive influence on a team, even if they are facing what seems like an uphill battle.

[Y2CJ41]

Didn't bellmont almost come back from a similar score against yorktown early in the year? They didn't do it but it was darn close.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.  Plus Bellmont had a different lineup because they shifted many of their wrestlers down a weight class.

[Y2CJ41]

I am not telling you to sell the idea about winning team state.  I'm saying we all need to sell the idea of team success.  Success means different things to different people and it may vary from year to year.  What you want your kids to think team success is, is up to you and the school's coaching staff.  As far as your Team Regional opponents situation goes, I'd say that we are in a similar situation.  This past year we lost to Crown Point twice before team regionals and Merrillville kicked our butts.  We also knew that if we did win we would've had to face Mishawaka 1st round of Team State.  Mishawaka beat us by 20 or so earlier in the season.  Yet another reason for our guys to potentially give up at Team regional.  We could have easily let the wrestlers concentrate on their individual success and say let's pack it in and forget about the team regional.  But we didn't allow it.  We tried our best to plant the seed of "what-if".  What if we pull off the upset?  What if this guy wouldn't have got pinned, what if we bumped and put in Johnny who fights like hell, but isn't very good?    Maybe he can pull something off!  What if they're having an off day?  What if someone misses weight, or is sick?  You never know with high school kids.  Stuff happens that could make up some pts.  But, did all our selling work?  In the W-L column it didn't work, but what we saw out of our kids that night shows us it infact did work.  We lost to Crown Point by 7pts (our closest margin of defeat in our 3 duals).  Also, just to clarify.......I don't have the answers that are specific to your situation, I'm just a person who likes a challenge and likes to find the positive in things instead of the negative and that comment about kids not having fight bugged me.

 

We have had team success, we have won four straight conference titles.  Last year would have been a very special year for our program but we lost a semi-state qualifier before our first match.  We don't have the depth that big schools have and we had to sub that semi-state qualifier in with a first year senior.  Sorry, but even the kids knew an already tough task just got quite a bit tougher.  On top of that losing another kid that would probably have gone to semi-state at conference.  We won our conference tournament with two seniors injury defaulting to 6th and having 4 kids wrestle above their seeds, 5 wrestle to their seeds and one below their seed.  At sectional we had very similar results but with a 2nd place finish as a team.  We had kids step up for the team, we don't have that problem.  We just don't have the depth to replace a semi-state qualifier or two in our line-up when someone goes down.

 

The kids wrestle for the team, but when it really counts they do it for themselves.  You have 14 kids at Portage walking the halls not wrestling that could probably beat Garrett.  The kids walking the halls at Garrett couldn't advance past sectional.  That is the difference and why we emphasize individuals during the state tournament.