Team State Debate

[indyt]

We can do this back and forth all day but I just want to know, what is it you are willing to live with?  Live with losing team state for what reason?  Do you have some insight that they are going to class individual if we lose team state?  What is it you are willing to live with and why?  Has someone told you the route to go is to take something away that you think is not that important to most teams and you will get what you want?  Class.  What is your status quo by the way?  Perception is you taking what I say and not saying it.  If I tell you to look at last years posts and see what I say that is not perception is it?  Thats reality.  Twist and bend if you may.  Whats best for wrestling, be it one team, twenty teams or forty teams.  I just was fortunate to step into the big school of Perry Meridian that dominates in all these other sports and win because we are 5a.  It gets old hearing the same stuff.  Sorry if I am ranting but dont turn what I say as truth of my word to perception.  It makes me upset and I turn into the hulk:)  ok, thats perception!!  Nobody has really seen that.

Well maybe Jacob last year but thats another subject!!!  Look I am not wanting to bicker.  I would love for our coaches to find a way to do whats best for Indiana Wrestling.  This does not solve much when someone says something positive for kids and it gets broken down for no good reason other than to break it down. 

[Jimtown 138]

After the coaches association meetings I sent coach snyder some ideas I had about showing unity with our association on this topic.  I "signed up" to be on the comitee to save team state.  I think we are waiting on word back about when we can meet and things like that.  

either way here are some of the ideas that I proposed to Derrick.  

 

This summer I got married.  My wife and I sent out a couple of hundred invites with pre- stamped returns.  we recieved a couple of hundred responces back in fairly short order. So with that in mind-

 

1.  Send out a letter to each wrestling coach in the state explaining the importance of first keeping team state, then classing it.  With the letter we put a prestamped "postcard" that they sign, and check off that they want to keep team state, and then check again if they are for the eventual classing of team state.  If we dont recieve a responce we call the coach until we get one.  In a few weeks I really think we could get 90% of the coaches to respond to this.

 

2.  We send out a letter to every principal and A.D. in the state explaining what we want.  If we can get the coaches letters back we could show that we have a 90%  backing for keeping team state.  They are representing us, if this is what we can all agree upon as being best for the sport I think they would be more inclined to back us.

 

 

Nice idea. This is how things get rolling. At least then there would be a voice for the community...

[CoachW33]

Nice idea. This is how things get rolling. At least then there would be a voice for the community...

 

Who will be the Coach to take this idea, or another, and get the ball rolling?

[indyt]

There will be a committe formed

[tspray1]

Why not start from scratch and go in and propose both Class for Team and Individual.  If you don't I fear that you will be fighting this same fight in 5 years.

 

Here is some info to chew on  State of Wisconsin is similar in size to Indiana in population and school numbers.

 

They have 3 classes, and their Individual state tournament goes on for 3 weeks (Indiana likes the 3 week idea)  They go Regional, Sectional and State.  With Team state 1 week after the Individual state for a total of 4 weeks.

 

You qualify for the Team Sectional by winning your Individual Regional's.  

 

There are 16 Regionals in Division 1,  16 Regionals in Div 2, and finally 16 Regionals in Div 3.  

 

The winners in Div 1 move on to 8 Sectionals with the winner of those sectional moving on to state for a grand total of 8 D1 Teams at state.

 

Div 2 has 16 Winners moving on to 4 Different Sectionals, (they will wrestle 2 dual meets on a Tuesday night to move on to State for a grand total of 4 D2 Teams going to state.

 

Div 3 is the same setup as Div 2.

 

 

State money figures from last year in Wisconsin

 

Individual Regional (all classes) $77,867

Individual Sectional (all classes) $104,804

Individual State (all classes) $489,526

 

Team Sectionals (all classes) $29,864

Team State (all classes) $60,049

 

I have tons more information that I dont care to type atm but if you have questions you can post them or pm me..

 

[indyt]

Coach Spray, I would like to hear more

[Y2CJ41]

This year is a proposal year for us.  We can't propose "saving" team state as it is.  That would be hilarious if we went in and re-proposed bringing back team state after they just axed it. 

 

We have to go in with a proposal for classed team state and hopefully individual too.  If anyone here is against growing wrestling in this state please tell me, because the best way to grow this sport is give more kids recognition for their hard work and dedication. 

[KarlHungus]

We can do this back and forth all day but I just want to know, what is it you are willing to live with?  Live with losing team state for what reason?  Do you have some insight that they are going to class individual if we lose team state?  What is it you are willing to live with and why?  Has someone told you the route to go is to take something away that you think is not that important to most teams and you will get what you want?

 

I have no special insight as to what the state might do or the coaches might do.  My ample gut tells me that it just might take losing team state to spur enough coaches to actually join the coaches association so that changes might occur.

 

I am willing to live without team state for the same reason, it might be the only way to get real changes.  I completely understand why you can not live without team state.

 

Things being taken away have often been an impetus for change all the way from the taxation without representation to taking freedom of heath care choice.

 

What is your status quo by the way? 

 

It's not my status quo, the status quo is the status quo.  A single class team and individual tournament is the status quo.

 

Perception is you taking what I say and not saying it.

 

I'm not sure what this means?

 

If I tell you to look at last years posts and see what I say that is not perception is it?  Thats reality. 

 

I have seen some posts where you endorse a a classed team state but compared to the number of posts since team state has been threatened it is quite small in number.  The perception might be that self-interest is what is driving the increased output of posts? Hell, I don't blame you one bit.  If I would have built a program of Perry Meridian's stature from ground zero, I would be fighting tooth and nail too.  All I am saying is that trying to get broad based support from coaches is not going to be easy for reasons previously mentioned.

 

Whats best for wrestling, be it one team, twenty teams or forty teams.  I just was fortunate to step into the big school of Perry Meridian that dominates in all these other sports and win because we are 5a.  It gets old hearing the same stuff.

 

No one is attacking you or the your program.  Anyone who knows his butt from a whole in the ground knows you and your staff have built a fine program with a lot of blood sweat tears and time. 

 

We just happen to disagree on what is best for the long term future of the sport.  I, like you, would love for our coaches to figure out what is best for wrestling in Indiana.

 

[KarlHungus]

Why not start from scratch and go in and propose both Class for Team and Individual.  If you don't I fear that you will be fighting this same fight in 5 years.

 

 

Best idea I have seen all week

[indyt]

Yes, I agree on some of these things Karl.  I know you are not attacking us.  I have been around the IHSAA enough and if you walk in and say we want this done and we want it done this year.  Well, it doesnt go well and in my opinion losing something to rally the troops is not the way to go because its like the IHSAA just took our honey and we start swarming around with no direction.  We have no honey and the next thing you know they knock down the nest.  Why not be proactive and rally now, keep something and  develop a plan.  If it fails, what did you lose?    If your idea fails, you did lose something, although, as you have explained not as important to some as others.  But it does effect some 120 or so kids on a certain day in Indiana.  We just differ on whats the most important but I think we both want to see improvements.  I dont like our current system with team as well.  We should have kept tow teams out of sectional, IMO.  It drew more interest.  It drew more crowd.  I am telling you, the idea of walking into the IHSAA with a plan that we want class and team and we want it now-WILL NOT WORK, they dont budge so quickly.  IMO

[ENoblewrestling]

I have no clue as to why we have to class both, They are two seperate things.  There are litterally two to three people on this post who are pushing for both to be one in the same and they are not.  Originally this post was about saving team state, then the thread was "hijacked" and now we are talking about classing both, as if we cant do one without the other?

Classing the team side is something that I think would get close to 100% approval.  I would guess that classing the indivdual side would get about 50/50 at best.  Why should we dillute something that we can all agree on with something that is heavily debated?  They are not the same thing.  I know im not the only one who feels this way.  

Again this is about saving team state, we can do this and class it without the indivdual tournament having to change. It doesnt matter how you feel about the classing of the individual side, the team state is too important to loose just because some people want to have the indiviual side classed.

To those of you who want to class the indidual side, and dont seem to either care, or want the team state, how will we deside a team champion?  I have asked this several times and would like to see your answer.  What is the best way to deside the team champion?  Is it with a team tournament, or through the indivdual tournament.  If it is with the team tournament then lets work to keep it alive and leave our personal agendas behind for the time being.  There is no way that we can get 100% aggreance on the classing of the indivdual tournament right now.  We could on the team state, unless you dont see it as either important or the best way to deside our champoions.  So which is it?  The team series or the indivdual tournament desiding the team champ?  If its the team side lets quit bickering and work together to save it, then you can start to work on the indivdual side another day.

[tspray1]

My response to you Busco is why is the system in Indiana not producing better results than the diluted ones you are talking about.  Also I would argue that these Diluted States are making more money as well.

 

I no longer advocate for anything in terms of class.. I fought this battle for many years when it was not the popular thing to do a only to be kicked repeatedly.  I am only adding some stats that will help others push forward.

 

Oh and btw money talks

[Y2CJ41]

Yes, I agree on some of these things Karl.  I know you are not attacking us.  I have been around the IHSAA enough and if you walk in and say we want this done and we want it done this year.  Well, it doesnt go well and in my opinion losing something to rally the troops is not the way to go because its like the IHSAA just took our honey and we start swarming around with no direction.  We have no honey and the next thing you know they knock down the nest.  Why not be proactive and rally now, keep something and  develop a plan.  If it fails, what did you lose?    If your idea fails, you did lose something, although, as you have explained not as important to some as others.  But it does effect some 120 or so kids on a certain day in Indiana.  We just differ on whats the most important but I think we both want to see improvements.  I dont like our current system with team as well.  We should have kept tow teams out of sectional, IMO.  It drew more interest.  It drew more crowd.  I am telling you, the idea of walking into the IHSAA with a plan that we want class and team and we want it now-WILL NOT WORK, they dont budge so quickly.  IMO

What would you suggest the IHSWCA do this year then?

 

Do you suggest that after they tell us that the team series is no more to go back in there in the spring and propose getting the team series back?  To me that seems pretty ridiculous if that is what you or anyone else is suggesting.

[Y2CJ41]

I have no clue as to why we have to class both, They are two seperate things.  There are litterally two to three people on this post who are pushing for both to be one in the same and they are not.  Originally this post was about saving team state, then the thread was "hijacked" and now we are talking about classing both, as if we cant do one without the other?

Classing the team side is something that I think would get close to 100% approval.  I would guess that classing the indivdual side would get about 50/50 at best.  Why should we dillute something that we can all agree on with something that is heavily debated?  They are not the same thing.  I know im not the only one who feels this way. 

Again this is about saving team state, we can do this and class it without the indivdual tournament having to change. It doesnt matter how you feel about the classing of the individual side, the team state is too important to loose just because some people want to have the indiviual side classed.

To those of you who want to class the indidual side, and dont seem to either care, or want the team state, how will we deside a team champion?  I have asked this several times and would like to see your answer.  What is the best way to deside the team champion?  Is it with a team tournament, or through the indivdual tournament.  If it is with the team tournament then lets work to keep it alive and leave our personal agendas behind for the time being.  There is no way that we can get 100% aggreance on the classing of the indivdual tournament right now.  We could on the team state, unless you dont see it as either important or the best way to deside our champoions.  So which is it?  The team series or the indivdual tournament desiding the team champ?  If its the team side lets quit bickering and work together to save it, then you can start to work on the indivdual side another day.

You have yet to answer my question.  Does getting more state qualifiers help a program?

[ENoblewrestling]

My response to you Busco is why is the system in Indiana not producing better results than the diluted ones you are talking about.  Also I would argue that these Diluted States are making more money as well.

 

I no longer advocate for anything in terms of class.. I fought this battle for many years when it was not the popular thing to do a only to be kicked repeatedly.  I am only adding some stats that will help others push forward.

 

Oh and btw money talks

 

I am not saying that your ideas are completely horrible, I am saying that I personally don't agree with them.  I just think it is really important to save the team state is all, and I don't think that throwing in classing the indivdual side with it is the way to go about that goal.

[KarlHungus]

Yes, I agree on some of these things Karl.  I know you are not attacking us.  I have been around the IHSAA enough and if you walk in and say we want this done and we want it done this year.  Well, it doesnt go well and in my opinion losing something to rally the troops is not the way to go because its like the IHSAA just took our honey and we start swarming around with no direction.  We have no honey and the next thing you know they knock down the nest.  Why not be proactive and rally now, keep something and  develop a plan.  If it fails, what did you lose?    If your idea fails, you did lose something, although, as you have explained not as important to some as others.  But it does effect some 120 or so kids on a certain day in Indiana.  We just differ on whats the most important but I think we both want to see improvements.  I dont like our current system with team as well.  We should have kept tow teams out of sectional, IMO.  It drew more interest.  It drew more crowd.  I am telling you, the idea of walking into the IHSAA with a plan that we want class and team and we want it now-WILL NOT WORK, they dont budge so quickly.  IMO

 

What guarantees would coaches have that team or individual class would ever be proposed?

[Y2CJ41]

I am not saying that your ideas are completely horrible, I am saying that I personally don't agree with them.  I just think it is really important to save the team state is all, and I don't think that throwing in classing the indivdual side with it is the way to go about that goal.

So you are a proponent of going to the IHSAA after they kill the team state and begging for it back? 

[ENoblewrestling]

You have yet to answer my question.  Does getting more state qualifiers help a program?

 

Yes getting more qualifiers is a good thing for a program as of right now.  If we classed it I think that the dillusion of talent would stand out and people would notice.  Its like a stated earlier, lets say it was classed.  lets say i had a really good day at semi-state and Richards, Hamilton (twice), Mcparlan, Hill, Siddons, Nicodemus, and Thompson (regional qualifier, but a solid small school light weight) make it to state in a two class system.  Wouldn't people question the validity of the accomplishment?  Wouldn't they wonder how "tough" it is to make it to state under the new circumstances if a team that in its history had eight qualifiers, and now has eight in two years.  people are not stupid they would start to question the validity of the accomplisment.

I was blessed in my first two years as a coach witha few wrestlers I was fairly certain would make it to state.  This year I don't have that luxury.  I have a few that may make it, but nothing as certain as what I felt Hamilton was.  Is that the systems fault, or mine, the programs, the kids?  I dont think the system is to blame this season if I dont get anyone to state.  

So that is my answer, yes I agree that more staters is good for a program, but I dont feel that lowering the definition of what a stater is, is the answer to getting more staters.  O.K.  I answered your question, now its your turn, which is the best way to deside a team state champion a team tournament, or the indivdual tournament?

[ENoblewrestling]

So you are a proponent of going to the IHSAA after they kill the team state and begging for it back? 

 

I think that I can speak for myself, and what I believe coach Tonte, and coach Snyder feel about the issue.  I believe that we can save the team tournament before the IHSAA kill it.  They havent taken it away yet.  I say work to save it before it is gone.

[Y2CJ41]

Yes getting more qualifiers is a good thing for a program as of right now.  If we classed it I think that the dillusion of talent would stand out and people would notice.  Its like a stated earlier, lets say it was classed.  lets say i had a really good day at semi-state and Richards, Hamilton (twice), Mcparlan, Hill, Siddons, Nicodemus, and Thompson (regional qualifier, but a solid small school light weight) make it to state in a two class system.  Wouldn't people question the validity of the accomplishment?  Wouldn't they wonder how "tough" it is to make it to state under the new circumstances if a team that in its history had eight qualifiers, and now has eight in two years.  people are not stupid they would start to question the validity of the accomplisment.

I was blessed in my first two years as a coach witha few wrestlers I was fairly certain would make it to state.  This year I don't have that luxury.  I have a few that may make it, but nothing as certain as what I felt Hamilton was.  Is that the systems fault, or mine, the programs, the kids?  I dont think the system is to blame this season if I dont get anyone to state.  

So that is my answer, yes I agree that more staters is good for a program, but I dont feel that lowering the definition of what a stater is, is the answer to getting more staters.  O.K.  I answered your question, now its your turn, which is the best way to deside a team state champion a team tournament, or the indivdual tournament?

So are you saying that since the football team won a diluted sectional title is it not good for their program?  Are people questioning the validity of it or are they celebrating the accomplishment and going to pack the stands to watch them play for a diluted regional title?

 

[tspray1]

All the Ihsaa cares about is will it make enough money to be worth having?

 

Busco to the idea that Class wrestling dilutes the state.  I have many examples that can prove this theory wrong and, I think it is pure paranoia on the part of people who think this.  Might it be this way in the beginning maybe..

 

I will give 1 example... Cullen Morrissey (Oconto Falls) DIV 2 State title team.  Cullen Placed 2nd in the state meet in Div 2 this past season.  he also placed 2nd in folkstyle nationals last year as well as 4th place in fargo Junior Freestyle and 4th place Junior Greco.  Cullen also went undefeated on the National Champion Junior Greco team in the duals.

 

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

buscowrestling,

If you are worried about dilution of the state tournament, why are you for a diluted team series?  Won't winning a sectional title mean less to the Churubusco community if it was a classed sectional title?  Won't everyone be telling you "well you couldn't do it in a single class sectional?"

[KarlHungus]

I think that I can speak for myself, and what I believe coach Tonte, and coach Snyder feel about the issue.  I believe that we can save the team tournament before the IHSAA kill it.  They havent taken it away yet.  I say work to save it before it is gone.

 

You have more faith than I.

[JB1212]

They haven't officially taken away team state yet. So why are so many people on here willing to give up on it?? Since we all agree that we need to try and keep team state going, lets focus more on ideas to keep it going and worry about what we can replace it with AFTER it actually gets taken away.

[KarlHungus]

I am not saying that your ideas are completely horrible, I am saying that I personally don't agree with them.  I just think it is really important to save the team state is all, and I don't think that throwing in classing the indivdual side with it is the way to go about that goal.

 

I think that is precisely what we should do.  Go to the IHSAA with stats like tspray had for a similar sized state along with playing up the increased participation and recognition.  More money + more participants in the state tournament + more recognition for programs and individuals = a winning formula.

 

If all we want to do is save the status quo, nothing will ever change.