MattM Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Thats not the point..... The point does keep twisting and changing so it is getting hard to follow. If its not a point to be discussed then it should be brought up. What were the main point that are are being discussed and evaluated again? If he wrestles at Mishawaka he improves because he has higher quality wrestlers closer to his weight. At Garrett he has always had to go 15+lbs above or below to find a quality partner. Wrestling at 145lber in practice that he outweighs by 20lbs and he can out muscle helps him, but not as good as having a 152lber to wrestle with. The same goes for the top end where he would have to wrestle someone that is 25lbs+ more than him to get a good workout. And I could imagine at most schools not named Perry or Mishawaka you would need to go up or down a few weight classes to find a talented enough individual to push a state qualifier to where they need to be. Numbers in the room doesn't always mean you are getting upper level talent around that specific weight class. Sure that a valid point for a quality practice partner but not seeing it a a great point to show class individual is a must. Some of the other point seem to be much better for that argument. And yes we should could have used him in all those sports so the next guy like him you get please send them down here Joe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Once again .. Don't want this to get lost in the shuffle. Why not start from scratch and go in and propose both Class for Team and Individual. If you don't I fear that you will be fighting this same fight in 5 years. Here is some info to chew on State of Wisconsin is similar in size to Indiana in population and school numbers. They have 3 classes, and their Individual state tournament goes on for 3 weeks (Indiana likes the 3 week idea) They go Regional, Sectional and State. With Team state 1 week after the Individual state for a total of 4 weeks. You qualify for the Team Sectional by winning your Individual Regional's. There are 16 Regionals in Division 1, 16 Regionals in Div 2, and finally 16 Regionals in Div 3. The winners in Div 1 move on to 8 Sectionals with the winner of those sectional moving on to state for a grand total of 8 D1 Teams at state. Div 2 has 16 Winners moving on to 4 Different Sectionals, (they will wrestle 2 dual meets on a Tuesday night to move on to State for a grand total of 4 D2 Teams going to state. Div 3 is the same setup as Div 2. State money figures from last year in Wisconsin Individual Regional (all classes) $77,867 Individual Sectional (all classes) $104,804 Individual State (all classes) $489,526 Team Sectionals (all classes) $29,864 Team State (all classes) $60,049 I have tons more information that I dont care to type atm but if you have questions you can post them or pm me.. These are interesting facts, I dont think that our coaches association would be able to agree on it. Our state is split at best on the issue of classing the individual side. If we dont want it we pry shouldn't push for it as a propossal. Just because a vocal minority is pushing for it , it doesnt mean that the majority of the state feel it is the best for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Its not as though all of these big schools have a Tyler Wllis or a Sean McMurray for every kid to wresle. Ive always felt Jordan had some pretty good practice partners in our room. I wish he would have made the descion to wrestle in some more top offseason clubs, that would have helped, but I think he managed to do pretty well despite our "disadvantages". We have been having conditioning since school started. If I were coaching football my assitants could have run it. I also feel that our track, and football programs make our wrestlers better and stronger atheletes all year around, allthough rigt now I feel like our football teams success might be hurting our wrestlers early on but Ill take that if we can keep winning. Mishawaka had quite a few guys around his weight to wrestle with along with as Karl stated about 8 assistant coaches. At Mishawaka he could wrestle with state champion Pat Day every day instead of semi-state qualifier Braxton Siddons. I will take the kid that bangs with a state champ every day over one that wrestles a semi-state qualifier every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Sigh....and the effort to make it personal continue. I wouldn't call Coach Tonte and Perry Meridian or Coach Snyder and Mishawaka bad coaches or programs and they are loudly pushing for a class system. When did Coach Tonte start supporting a call for class wrestling, because last conversation I had with him that was not the case so are you sure of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Its not as though all of these big schools have a Tyler Wllis or a Sean McMurray for every kid to wresle. Ive always felt Jordan had some pretty good practice partners in our room. I wish he would have made the descion to wrestle in some more top offseason clubs, that would have helped, but I think he managed to do pretty well despite our "disadvantages". We have been having conditioning since school started. If I were coaching football my assitants could have run it. I also feel that our track, and football programs make our wrestlers better and stronger atheletes all year around, allthough rigt now I feel like our football teams success might be hurting our wrestlers early on but Ill take that if we can keep winning. The difference is that Penn has many of their top kids conditioning whereas small schools top kids are benefiting from that early season work. Our 103 lber. lettered this year on special teams on an 8-4 football team. Do Penn and Mishawaka depend on their 103 to letter for them or are they probably wrestling and conditioning for the past 3 months? Pretty good partners is different than being in Mishawaka's room. All wrestling coaches at many schools also coach football. Why do you think Jordan did not train much in the wrestling off season like an Andrew Howe or Sean McMurray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 These are interesting facts, I dont think that our coaches association would be able to agree on it. Our state is split at best on the issue of classing the individual side. If we dont want it we pry shouldn't push for it as a propossal. Just because a vocal minority is pushing for it , it doesnt mean that the majority of the state feel it is the best for us. There are a lot more people that are for a class individual state than you know. Most don't want to be drug into this and have their programs scrutinized or do not like to be called lazy when they are a supporter of a classed system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 When did Coach Tonte start supporting a call for class wrestling, because last conversation I had with him that was not the case so are you sure of this? Earlier today and over the past few years actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Our state is split at best on the issue of classing the individual side. I don't think we have any idea what the coach's think about classing the individual tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Big Hawaiian: Was coach Tonte lying to us or you? If someone who is wiser than I can go back to over last year you can see that I was all for it then as well. I admitted that originally we did not want class only because we wanted to be the team to beat EMD. Someone else a lot tougher than us got it done. I have always said a class team state would be awesome for the state, communities and wrestling (as well as a big pocket book for the IHSAA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Mishawaka had quite a few guys around his weight to wrestle with along with as Karl stated about 8 assistant coaches. At Mishawaka he could wrestle with state champion Pat Day every day instead of semi-state qualifier Braxton Siddons. I will take the kid that bangs with a state champ every day over one that wrestles a semi-state qualifier every day. Ok that is the situation for one team. You could say the same for Yorktown, whats their advantage? The better the team the better the practice partners. We beat several 4 and 5 a schools last year what is our advantage over them? If we start to use this Mishawaka example we are really talking about the level of talent on a team not the size of the school. Should we start classing that way? Mishawaka has alot more talent in the room than almost any other team in the state. Why not compair the disadvantage to a bad or even mediocore 5a room, I think its about the indivdual wrestlers situation more often than not as compaired with the team they wrestle for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 At a 5A school they rarely need 5'6" 160lbs linebackers, so he would be less inclined to play football and wrestle year round. The same goes for track, they wouldn't have NEEDED him for the trail leg of the 4X100 relay to qualify for regional. If he wrestles at Mishawaka he improves because he has higher quality wrestlers closer to his weight. At Garrett he has always had to go 15+lbs above or below to find a quality partner. Wrestling at 145lber in practice that he outweighs by 20lbs and he can out muscle helps him, but not as good as having a 152lber to wrestle with. The same goes for the top end where he would have to wrestle someone that is 25lbs+ more than him to get a good workout. Well at 5APerry Meridian Nick Walpole 5"9 wrestled 140lbs-145lbs linebacker, Eric Aue 140lbs-145lbs noseman, Kevin Clem 152lbs-160lbs linebacker.Walpole- State Champ,Aue- 4th place(I think),Clem- State Runner-up. Debunks that theory.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Big Hawaiian: Was coach Tonte lying to us or you? I believe he is talking about the team side there, I dont see anything about the individual side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 The point does keep twisting and changing so it is getting hard to follow. If its not a point to be discussed then it should be brought up. What were the main point that are are being discussed and evaluated again? And I could imagine at most schools not named Perry or Mishawaka you would need to go up or down a few weight classes to find a talented enough individual to push a state qualifier to where they need to be. Numbers in the room doesn't always mean you are getting upper level talent around that specific weight class. Sure that a valid point for a quality practice partner but not seeing it a a great point to show class individual is a must. Some of the other point seem to be much better for that argument. And yes we should could have used him in all those sports so the next guy like him you get please send them down here Joe. Buscowrestling specifically asked about him wrestling at Mishawaka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Well at 5APerry Meridian Nick Walpole 5"9 wrestled 140lbs-145lbs linebacker, Eric Aue 140lbs-145lbs noseman, Kevin Clem 152lbs-160lbs linebacker. State Champ, 4th place(I think), State Runner-up. Debunks that theory.... Where they two way starters along with playing most special teams? If so Perry must have some pretty weak teams to have those guys on the field for most of the game. Having a 145lbs linebacker is not going to bode well for a 5A team's chances of doing much damage in the play-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 The difference is that Penn has many of their top kids conditioning whereas small schools top kids are benefiting from that early season work. Our 103 lber. lettered this year on special teams on an 8-4 football team. Do Penn and Mishawaka depend on their 103 to letter for them or are they probably wrestling and conditioning for the past 3 months? Pretty good partners is different than being in Mishawaka's room. All wrestling coaches at many schools also coach football. Why do you think Jordan did not train much in the wrestling off season like an Andrew Howe or Sean McMurray? Ill bet your 103 lbs wrestler is much stronger from offseason workouts than if he had just wreslted. Very few rooms regaurdless of size are as good Mishawakas room. Jordan was a bit burnt out on the sport when summer rolled around, and chose to focus on football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Ok that is the situation for one team. You could say the same for Yorktown, whats their advantage? The better the team the better the practice partners. We beat several 4 and 5 a schools last year what is our advantage over them? If we start to use this Mishawaka example we are really talking about the level of talent on a team not the size of the school. Should we start classing that way? Mishawaka has alot more talent in the room than almost any other team in the state. Why not compair the disadvantage to a bad or even mediocore 5a room, I think its about the indivdual wrestlers situation more often than not as compaired with the team they wrestle for. There is a higher probability of bigger schools producing more quality individuals and therefore more quality practice partners. You can bring up Yorktown but for every Yorktown there are at least 5 big schools just as good. And half the schools that wrestle are smaller than Yorktown. McCray or Hamilton were better off in their rooms than a bad 5a but the bad 5a has the potential to produce more quality individuals for a McCray or Hamilton to work with. That is why Mishawaka is used as an example, but you could say Penn, Crown Point, Merrillville, Portage, Cathedral, Perry Meridian, New Castle, Castle or many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Buscowrestling specifically asked about him wrestling at Mishawaka. I did do that, I now see the flaws in that part of my argument. The point I was making was that McCray had a lot of success in your room regardless of the size of your school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Ill bet your 103 lbs wrestler is much stronger from offseason workouts than if he had just wreslted. That is because all his wrestling coaches coach football and can't get him in the room from August to October. At Penn they are working out and getting mat time in the fall. Very few rooms regaurdless of size are as good Mishawakas room. That is why I brought up other wrestlers from other big school programs that he would have benefited wrestling every day with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 That is because all his wrestling coaches coach football and can't get him in the room from August to October. At Penn they are working out and getting mat time in the fall. That is why I brought up other wrestlers from other big school programs that he would have benefited wrestling every day with. I would still argue that helps your 3 pounder. He could have gotten better wrestling Stein, Castner, Bratcher, Duckworth, McCray.... there are a lot of solid small school guys as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 I did do that, I now see the flaws in that part of my argument. The point I was making was that McCray had a lot of success in your room regardless of the size of your school. With no disrespect to Y2 or garrett, McCray is probably a two time placer and 3 time qualifier if he wrestles at Mishawaka. And with no disrespect to you, Hamilton is probably the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Where they two way starters along with playing most special teams? If so Perry must have some pretty weak teams to have those guys on the field for most of the game. Having a 145lbs linebacker is not going to bode well for a 5A team's chances of doing much damage in the play-offs. Oh now they need to go both ways to debunk that statement,lol! How about 140lbs-145lbs Aue at noseman,lol Needless to say they are playing against much bigger foes but they are wrestlers, and I doubt they prided themselves or considered themselves a weak team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 I would still argue that helps your 3 pounder. Sure it helps him...its far better than having him at home eating potato chips. Relative to the Penn 103 however, he is still at a disadvantage. He could have gotten better wrestling Stein, Castner, Bratcher, Duckworth, McCray.... there are a lot of solid small school guys as well. I realize that.....The point is that the likelyhood of him having good partners goes up with the size of school. There is a reason that the overwhelming majority of the top teams are big schools, it is because they have the overwhelming majority of top individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Oh now they need to go both ways to debunk that statement,lol! How about 140lbs-145lbs Aue at noseman,lol Needless to say they are playing against much bigger foes but they are wrestlers, and I doubt they prided themselves or considered themselves a weak team! I'm pretty sure Y2 said both ways because that is what the kid in question did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Earlier today and over the past few years actually. I will talk to Coach Schoettle and or Coach Tonte today or tomorrow and get back with you. Are you sure he didn't say he would support class team state before he would want team state dropped all together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Oh now they need to go both ways to debunk that statement,lol! How about 140lbs-145lbs Aue at noseman,lol Needless to say they are playing against much bigger foes but they are wrestlers, and I doubt they prided themselves or considered themselves a weak team! 3-8 and lost to Indy Northwest ain't exactly tearin it up. What position did Chico play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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