Team State Debate

[KarlHungus]

They haven't officially taken away team state yet. So why are so many people on here willing to give up on it?? Since we all agree that we need to try and keep team state going, lets focus more on ideas to keep it going and worry about what we can replace it with AFTER it actually gets taken away.

 

When the new commish says its on life support and many ADs have left it for dead after their most recent regional meetings, I am fairly certain that it is done in its present format after this year. 

[ENoblewrestling]

buscowrestling,

If you are worried about dilution of the state tournament, why are you for a diluted team series?  Won't winning a sectional title mean less to the Churubusco community if it was a classed sectional title?  Won't everyone be telling you "well you couldn't do it in a single class sectional?"

 

The team is different in my opinion.  The team takes 14, indivdual takes one.  I have stated this before. For the team series I feel there is a disadvantage by having less kids as it takes 14 wrestlers to compete.  You are more likely to have 14 good wrestlers at a large school than a small school.  

 

In the indivdual it is one on one.  I dont feel it matters what school one man comes from.  We have had a lost of champions, placeers, and qualifiers at small schools.  There are more at big schools, but in my opinion that is because they are statistically more likely to.  You always say that it should be a 50/50 ratio if 50% of the entries are from small schools.  I see those same numbers and see the 75%, 25 % ratio we currently have as being fair because 75% of the top atheletes would likely go to big schools, because 75% of the total population go to big schools.  I know you dont agree with taht but that is how that stat looks to me and several others.  I dont think either of us are wrong, just see the stats in different ways.  No one has answered my team state question yet.

[ENoblewrestling]

When the new commish says its on life support and many ADs have left it for dead after their most recent regional meetings, I am fairly certain that it is done in its present format after this year. 

 

that may be what you and Y2 want, but i would bet its not what a majority of the coaches want

[KarlHungus]

that may be what you and Y2 want, but i would bet its not what a majority of the coaches want

 

What makes you say that?  I have never said I wanted the state to take the team tournament away.  The fact of the matter is that it probably doesn't matter what you, me, Y2 or any coach wants at this point. 

[KarlHungus]

  No one has answered my team state question yet.

 

The team state dual meet format is the best but not the only way to determine a state champion.  And yes I have answered that question in various ways over the previous few pages. 

 

If a one class team state is done after this year (as all indications seem to be pointing too), energy is better spent in my opinion on the future rather than chasing windmills and hanging onto the past.

[Y2CJ41]

The team is different in my opinion.  The team takes 14, indivdual takes one.  I have stated this before. For the team series I feel there is a disadvantage by having less kids as it takes 14 wrestlers to compete.  You are more likely to have 14 good wrestlers at a large school than a small school. 

 

In the indivdual it is one on one.  I dont feel it matters what school one man comes from.  We have had a lost of champions, placeers, and qualifiers at small schools.  There are more at big schools, but in my opinion that is because they are statistically more likely to.  You always say that it should be a 50/50 ratio if 50% of the entries are from small schools.  I see those same numbers and see the 75%, 25 % ratio we currently have as being fair because 75% of the top atheletes would likely go to big schools, because 75% of the total population go to big schools.  I know you dont agree with taht but that is how that stat looks to me and several others.  I dont think either of us are wrong, just see the stats in different ways.  No one has answered my team state question yet.

The team is exactly the SAME!

 

Will classing the team portion not water down what it means to be a sectional, regional or semi-state team champion?  Will it not water down what it means to make it to team state?  Will it not give those "champions" a false sense of achievement because they might not be the "true" champions?  How will Perry or Mishawaka feel when they don't have to beat Mater Dei for a title?  What if it is a general consensus that MD is a better team? 

 

Plain and simple classing team state will water it down and dilute it the same way you say classing individual will.

[ENoblewrestling]

The team is exactly the SAME!

 

Will classing the team portion not water down what it means to be a sectional, regional or semi-state team champion?  Will it not water down what it means to make it to team state?  Will it not give those "champions" a false sense of achievement because they might not be the "true" champions?  How will Perry or Mishawaka feel when they don't have to beat Mater Dei for a title?  What if it is a general consensus that MD is a better team?  

 

Plain and simple classing team state will water it down and dilute it the same way you say classing individual will.

 

Thats not the point of what I was making.  The point that I was making was that in the team tournament you are at a disadvantage because you need 14 guys.  in the indivdual you need one, you, thus one man is not any worse off than any other one man.  It is on them.  Do you think that big national tournaments should be classed too then?  If you go to Fargo and wrestle for a small school, or small club should you be put into your own lesser division.  Should we class it by state?  If the biggest tournament in America doesn't need classed why do we need it here?

[RightKnight]

There would be one great thing that would come out of a class system for both team and individual. It would take these terrible programs with terrible coaching. {coaches who can?t handle parents, are in conflict with the football team, run kids off the team, who cannot fill a squad, you all know the excuses.}  This includes some of the loudest voices pushing for a class system.  The AD?s would be forced to have a conversation with their wrestling coaches that would go something like this. [AD] I previously bought the line that we aren?t any good because we are a small school {even there are tons of examples of small programs who do great things} but now all things are equal (cheapened) you still aren?t competitive so we are going to have to let you go.  [Coach] gasp! Wait What I still have excuses Oh please listen to them they are plentiful.

[Y2CJ41]

Thats not the point of what I was making.  The point that I was making was that in the team tournament you are at a disadvantage because you need 14 guys.  in the indivdual you need one, you, thus one man is not any worse off than any other one man.  It is on them.  Do you think that big national tournaments should be classed too then?  If you go to Fargo and wrestle for a small school, or small club should you be put into your own lesser division.  Should we class it by state?  If the biggest tournament in America doesn't need classed why do we need it here?

Awww yes, my favorite rebuttal of all time.  The goal of a national tournament such as Fargo should be way different than the goal of a state tournament.  

 

Of course you are still the one that wants to water down and dilute the team series too, so why not just give every team a ribbon because that is exactly what you are trying to do when you dilute it and make it classed.

[Y2CJ41]

There would be one great thing that would come out of a class system for both team and individual. It would take these terrible programs with terrible coaching. {coaches who can?t handle parents, are in conflict with the football team, run kids off the team, who cannot fill a squad, you all know the excuses.}  This includes some of the loudest voices pushing for a class system.  The AD?s would be forced to have a conversation with their wrestling coaches that would go something like this. [AD] I previously bought the line that we aren?t any good because we are a small school {even there are tons of examples of small programs who do great things} but now all things are equal (cheapened) you still aren?t competitive so we are going to have to let you go.  [Coach] gasp! Wait What I still have excuses Oh please listen to them they are plentiful.

I am not sure if you think that is a good thing or bad thing, but I personally would feel that would be good for the sport when ADs want their wrestling squads to succeed and get rid of poor coaches. 

[KarlHungus]

Thats not the point of what I was making.  The point that I was making was that in the team tournament you are at a disadvantage because you need 14 guys.  in the indivdual you need one, you, thus one man is not any worse off than any other one man.  It is on them.  Do you think that big national tournaments should be classed too then?  If you go to Fargo and wrestle for a small school, or small club should you be put into your own lesser division.  Should we class it by state?  If the biggest tournament in America doesn't need classed why do we need it here?

 

If your goal is for our state tournament to be more like Fargo then we would class it by age divisions.  I don't think anyone would support that.

[KarlHungus]

There would be one great thing that would come out of a class system for both team and individual. It would take these terrible programs with terrible coaching. {coaches who can’t handle parents, are in conflict with the football team, run kids off the team, who cannot fill a squad, you all know the excuses.}  This includes some of the loudest voices pushing for a class system. 

 

Sigh....and the effort to make it personal continue.  I wouldn't call Coach Tonte and Perry Meridian or Coach Snyder and Mishawaka bad coaches or programs and they are loudly pushing for a class system.

[ENoblewrestling]

Awww yes, my favorite rebuttal of all time.  The goal of a national tournament such as Fargo should be way different than the goal of a state tournament.  

 

Of course you are still the one that wants to water down and dilute the team series too, so why not just give every team a ribbon because that is exactly what you are trying to do when you dilute it and make it classed.

 

Isn't the goal of a national tournament and a state tournament to find the best wrestler?  they are both pretty damn prestigious if you ask me.  The  middle of the winter small school tournament, or the early spring open should be were some you lower yor expectations a bit.  The state finals are open to everyone and the best deserve to be recognized for that.  Also Ive explained why I feel classed team and individual events are different.

[KarlHungus]

Isn't the goal of a national tournament and a state tournament to find the best wrestler? 

 

Not in 40+ states its not.  It's to find the best wrestler in each class.

[KarlHungus]

  Also Ive explained why I feel classed team and individual events are different.

 

But you haven't explained why you think it's OK to dilute what it means to be a team state champ.  Saying that it takes 14 to win a classed state championship does not change the fact that a classed team state championship is a diluted state championship.

[ENoblewrestling]

But you haven't explained why you think it's OK to dilute what it means to be a team state champ.  Saying that it takes 14 to win a classed state championship does not change the fact that a classed team state championship is a diluted state championship.

 

It's reall the idea that in one you are at a disadvantage and in the other you are not.  While I also agree that diluting our indivdual state tournament is a bad thing, it is more because of my feeling that all indivduals haver a chance in the tournament and that they can get to the podium if they work hard.  If they are at such a disadvatage what would happen if a guy like Stein or Phillips or Howe went to a big school?  Would they be somehow better?  Were is their disadvantage.  What about Mccray if he hadnt had to wrestle his whole life at such a disadvataged school would he have won many state titles?  What if these guys went to Mishawaka, would they be national champs too? 

By the way in all honesty I want you both to know that I dont really think that.  I wrestle both of your teams during the year and feel that your wrestlers are well coached, and hard working.  I dont see the big disadvantage your talking about.  You may not win every event, but your always competitive.  The odds are that you will loose to bigger schools, this isnt because of some disadvantage, but instead because the odds simply are that smaller schools will have less top level atheletes.

[RightKnight]

I apologize if this was taken personally. My frustration with this issue resulted in what appeared to be a very personal attack. I do see people blame external sources for problems within their programs.  

[Y2CJ41]

Isn't the goal of a national tournament and a state tournament to find the best wrestler?  they are both pretty damn prestigious if you ask me.  The  middle of the winter small school tournament, or the early spring open should be were some you lower yor expectations a bit.  The state finals are open to everyone and the best deserve to be recognized for that.  Also Ive explained why I feel classed team and individual events are different.

I guess over 40 states don't meet that criteria

[Y2CJ41]

It's reall the idea that in one you are at a disadvantage and in the other you are not.  While I also agree that diluting our indivdual state tournament is a bad thing, it is more because of my feeling that all indivduals haver a chance in the tournament and that they can get to the podium if they work hard.  If they are at such a disadvatage what would happen if a guy like Stein or Phillips or Howe went to a big school?  Would they be somehow better?  Were is their disadvantage.  What about Mccray if he hadnt had to wrestle his whole life at such a disadvataged school would he have won many state titles?  What if these guys went to Mishawaka, would they be national champs too?  

By the way in all honesty I want you both to know that I dont really think that.  I wrestle both of your teams during the year and feel that your wrestlers are well coached, and hard working.  I dont see the big disadvantage your talking about.  You may not win every event, but your always competitive.  The odds are that you will loose to bigger schools, this isnt because of some disadvantage, but instead because the odds simply are that smaller schools will have less top level atheletes.

McCray would probably have never stepped on the football field at a 5A school and wouldn't have been a regional qualifier for the track team.  Therefore he would have had more time to devote to wrestling during the offseason.  I would say that if he would have been able to have some better results if he would have been able to focus solely on wrestling.  Phillips and Stein would probably have some better practice partners to push them every day.  If those guys went to a school like Mishawaka they might have had more success because they would be surrounded by more quality wrestlers.  I am sure Zac would have been better if every day he had to bang with Al White or Dick Morin amongst the other Mishawaka studs around his weight.  Wrestling those types of kids day in day out will improve you beyond having to go 10+lbs in either way to find a good partner.

 

Why do kids seek out wrestling the BEST kids in the state in the offseason?  If wrestling the crappy wrestlers every day did as much for you as wrestling some of the best, then kids wouldn't drive hours to practice with other tough kids.

[KarlHungus]

It's reall the idea that in one you are at a disadvantage and in the other you are not.

 

If Yorktown and Mater Dei can compete for a single state title why are all the other small schools at a disadvantage?

 

Penn HS has been holding preseason workouts since the start of the school year.  Do those individuals have advantages over individuals at schools where all the wrestling coaches are also football coaches?

 

While I also agree that diluting our indivdual state tournament is a bad thing, it is more because of my feeling that all indivduals haver a chance in the tournament and that they can get to the podium if they work hard.  If they are at such a disadvatage what would happen if a guy like Stein or Phillips or Howe went to a big school?  Would they be somehow better?  Were is their disadvantage.  What about Mccray if he hadnt had to wrestle his whole life at such a disadvataged school would he have won many state titles?  What if these guys went to Mishawaka, would they be national champs too? 

 

No one says they don't have a chance if they work hard.  Howe got substantially better because he trained at Overtime where he had practice partners at his level.  Phillips does the same at CIA.  No one is saying others can't do the same.

 

Is there an advantage to individuals being in Mishawaka or Penn or Crown Point's room and not have to spend the time and money that Howe and Phillips and Sliga do to find practice partners at their level?  I would say yes.  Would Jordan Hamilton benefited if he had to wrestle Tyler Willis or Sean McMurray every day?

 

[ENoblewrestling]

McCray would probably have never stepped on the football field at a 5A school and wouldn't have been a regional qualifier for the track team.  Therefore he would have had more time to devote to wrestling during the offseason.  I would say that if he would have been able to have some better results if he would have been able to focus solely on wrestling.  Phillips and Stein would probably have some better practice partners to push them every day.  If those guys went to a school like Mishawaka they might have had more success because they would be surrounded by more quality wrestlers.  I am sure Zac would have been better if every day he had to bang with Al White or Dick Morin amongst the other Mishawaka studs around his weight.  Wrestling those types of kids day in day out will improve you beyond having to go 10+lbs in either way to find a good partner.

 

Why do kids seek out wrestling the BEST kids in the state in the offseason?  If wrestling the crappy wrestlers every day did as much for you as wrestling some of the best, then kids wouldn't drive hours to practice with other tough kids.

 

First off I think your overstating this whole big school kids only wrestle thing.  I have never seen McCray play football, but im gonna guess he could find a spot on at most schools regaurdless of size, hes a big guy.  Also track is one class so a regional qualifier is a regional qualifier (kind of like wrestling).  There are a ton of kids who are great wrestlers who do more than just wrestle its about what they want to put into it.  Small school kids can have that same oppurtunity that other kids have to wrestle in the top offseason clubs.  Agsain your room apparently didn't hurt him to much.

[tspray1]

Once again .. Don't want this to get lost in the shuffle.

 

 

Why not start from scratch and go in and propose both Class for Team and Individual.  If you don't I fear that you will be fighting this same fight in 5 years.

 

Here is some info to chew on  State of Wisconsin is similar in size to Indiana in population and school numbers.

 

They have 3 classes, and their Individual state tournament goes on for 3 weeks (Indiana likes the 3 week idea)  They go Regional, Sectional and State.  With Team state 1 week after the Individual state for a total of 4 weeks.

 

You qualify for the Team Sectional by winning your Individual Regional's. 

 

There are 16 Regionals in Division 1,  16 Regionals in Div 2, and finally 16 Regionals in Div 3. 

 

The winners in Div 1 move on to 8 Sectionals with the winner of those sectional moving on to state for a grand total of 8 D1 Teams at state.

 

Div 2 has 16 Winners moving on to 4 Different Sectionals, (they will wrestle 2 dual meets on a Tuesday night to move on to State for a grand total of 4 D2 Teams going to state.

 

Div 3 is the same setup as Div 2.

 

 

State money figures from last year in Wisconsin

 

Individual Regional (all classes) $77,867

Individual Sectional (all classes) $104,804

Individual State (all classes) $489,526

 

Team Sectionals (all classes) $29,864

Team State (all classes) $60,049

 

I have tons more information that I dont care to type atm but if you have questions you can post them or pm me..

[KarlHungus]

Small school kids can have that same oppurtunity that other kids have to wrestle in the top offseason clubs.  Agsain your room apparently didn't hurt him to much.

 

Thats not the point.....the point is that he would likely have been better if he were in Mishawaka's room, with Mishawaka's schedule, or with Mishawaka's 8 assistant coaches.  (not sure on the number but its quite a few)

[ENoblewrestling]

If Yorktown and Mater Dei can compete for a single state title why are all the other small schools at a disadvantage?

 

Penn HS has been holding preseason workouts since the start of the school year.  Do those individuals have advantages over individuals at schools where all the wrestling coaches are also football coaches?

 

No one says they don't have a chance if they work hard.  Howe got substantially better because he trained at Overtime where he had practice partners at his level.  Phillips does the same at CIA.  No one is saying others can't do the same.

 

Is there an advantage to individuals being in Mishawaka or Penn or Crown Point's room and not have to spend the time and money that Howe and Phillips and Sliga do to find practice partners at their level?  I would say yes.  Would Jordan Hamilton benefited if he had to wrestle Tyler Willis or Sean McMurray every day?

 

Its not as though all of these big schools have a Tyler Wllis or a Sean McMurray for every kid to wresle. Ive always felt Jordan had some pretty good practice partners in our room.  I wish he would have made the descion to wrestle in some more top offseason clubs, that would have helped, but I think he managed to do pretty well despite our "disadvantages".  We have been having conditioning since school started.  If I were coaching football my assitants could have run it.  I also feel that our track, and football programs make our wrestlers better and stronger atheletes all year around, allthough rigt now I feel like our football teams success might be hurting our wrestlers early on but Ill take that if we can keep winning.

[Y2CJ41]

First off I think your overstating this whole big school kids only wrestle thing.  I have never seen McCray play football, but im gonna guess he could find a spot on at most schools regaurdless of size, hes a big guy.  Also track is one class so a regional qualifier is a regional qualifier (kind of like wrestling).  There are a ton of kids who are great wrestlers who do more than just wrestle its about what they want to put into it.  Small school kids can have that same oppurtunity that other kids have to wrestle in the top offseason clubs.  Agsain your room apparently didn't hurt him to much.

At a 5A school they rarely need 5'6" 160lbs linebackers, so he would be less inclined to play football and wrestle year round.  The same goes for track, they wouldn't have NEEDED him for the trail leg of the 4X100 relay to qualify for regional.  If he wrestles at Mishawaka he improves because he has higher quality wrestlers closer to his weight.  At Garrett he has always had to go 15+lbs above or below to find a quality partner.  Wrestling at 145lber in practice that he outweighs by 20lbs and he can out muscle helps him, but not as good as having a 152lber to wrestle with.  The same goes for the top end where he would have to wrestle someone that is 25lbs+ more than him to get a good workout.