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Seeding Meeting Change???

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18 minutes ago, buscowrestling said:

The random drawing of rat tails was discussed, and agreed upon by the coaches.  I was under the impression that the new rules would have that wording put in. 

 

That wording was put in although I have no clue when it or these other items were added since the Winter Bulletin was updated yesterday afternoon.  If you scores down to the bottom of the Winter Bulletin it show a sectional bracket with instructions to assign the dawn in kids to lines 4 and 13 of the 16 man bracket.  This eliminates the from drawing into a top seed.  However, the wording of it points out the reason is to ensures the top seeds get a semi-final opponent.

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So punishing wrestlers that made weight that can’t control if their opponent sends someone out.  I’ve seen multiple times this year where a team forfeited to a kid even though they had a wrestler in that weight.

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17 minutes ago, AJ said:

Coaches actually agreed to the random drawing of the rat tail matches??????  What this agreement a slim majority or an overwhelming majority??

I need to clarify my statement.  The coaches agreed to place the wrestlers in the manner that Y2 had brought up.  The way I wrote it seems like we agreed to having them randomly drawn in.

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7 minutes ago, Joker said:

How will this be enforced? Broadcast sports among others mentioned a few weeks back that many schools are forgeting, to busy or for whatever the reason not inputting results here or let alone track wrestling. 

No different than before.  If none of the wrestlers have met any criteria (head to head, common opponents, semi-state quarterfinalist) then the next criteria is winning % of actual matches wrestled.  Previously a record could be inflated by taking forfeits.  Now, that inflated record due to forfeits just won't get that kid a seed over a more deserving kid who has actually beat kids.

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2 minutes ago, mikemorgan said:

So punishing wrestlers that made weight that can’t control if their opponent sends someone out.  I’ve seen multiple times this year where a team forfeited to a kid even though they had a wrestler in that weight.

Mike-

You're not punishing that kid at all.  He still gets the win, still gets his hand raised, still gets the team points, etc.

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2 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

No different than before.  If none of the wrestlers have met any criteria (head to head, common opponents, semi-state quarterfinalist) then the next criteria is winning % of actual matches wrestled.  Previously a record could be inflated by taking forfeits.  Now, that inflated record due to forfeits just won't get that kid a seed over a more deserving kid who has actually beat kids.

I believe he means, how will we know if coaches are actually giving the correct record?

Although, what has ever stopped coaches from submitting the wrong record....

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4 minutes ago, decbell1 said:

I believe he means, how will we know if coaches are actually giving the correct record?

Although, what has ever stopped coaches from submitting the wrong record....

Gotcha... I guess my reply is it’s still the same as before.  

If a coach was going to try and cheat by giving false info on matches won, he was probably cheating before giving false info on the kids record.

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2 hours ago, Chris Cooper said:

If one of the kids are going to be drawn in, wouldn't you rather have the kid who didn't win a higher number of matches wrestled be the kid that is drawn in.

Why should the better kid who has beat more wrestlers be penalized because his opponent didn't wrestle anyone.

Here is a scenario that is 100% true and going to happen in a couple weeks.

My kid is 15-6 right now(10-6 with forfeits taken out), other team's kid is 14-6(13-6 with forfeits taken out). We are 1-1 with common opponents. When we wrestled this team they forfeited to our guy so our win doesn't count. The kid wrestled later in the day. So now my kid is being punished for having too many forfeits and on top of that, the other team not wrestling against us and preventing us from a head to head.

How many times will this happen vs. the kid with 10 forfeits snagging a seed?

We had a top 10 strength of schedule last year and we averaged 3.4 forfeits per wrestler and had one with 8 forfeits.

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30 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

Mike-

You're not punishing that kid at all.  He still gets the win, still gets his hand raised, still gets the team points, etc.

Except my win doesn't count on my record. 

Tell me how this encourages teams to continue to schedule schools that routinely forfeit multiple weights?

Was this change initiated by all coaches vote or just the regional reps? I thought ALL changes had to be done by a coaches vote. 

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8 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Except my win doesn't count on my record. 

Tell me how this encourages teams to continue to schedule schools that routinely forfeit multiple weights?

Was this change initiated by all coaches vote or just the regional reps? I thought ALL changes had to be done by a coaches vote. 

If you know a team has multiple FFs, how can you schedule them? I would like to know what this looks like in a few years. Our better kids will be fine, even taking out the FFs. But I agree about the 3-6 seeded kids. 

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Here is a scenario that is 100% true and going to happen in a couple weeks.

My kid is 15-6 right now(10-6 with forfeits taken out), other team's kid is 17-6(13-6 with forfeits taken out). We are 1-1 with common opponents. When we wrestled this team they forfeited to our guy so our win doesn't count. The kid wrestled later in the day. So now my kid is being punished for having too many forfeits and on top of that, the other team not wrestling against us and preventing us from a head to head.

How many times will this happen vs. the kid with 10 forfeits snagging a seed?

We had a top 10 strength of schedule last year and we averaged 3.4 forfeits per wrestler and had one with 8 forfeits.

Joe, in this scenario, the other kid would get the seed with the forfeits added into his win percentage.  He gets the seed either way.

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I guess this topic could be inter woven with another topic then..................because if the coaches send their kid out there against a much more dominant opponent instead of giving a FF and then the dominant opponent takes him down 27 times in a match you guys will not be happy with that either.  So the coach saves the kid from that and just FF's and now you are not happy with that.  I thought this was a sport for tough kids (not basketball) where we all know what we are getting into (coaches and wrestlers).  IF a kid is in the weight class on a team then he should wrestle if he is there and do the best he can.  If the dominant wrestler takes him down 27 times in a match and the kid doesn't like it he should do something to stop getting taken down. 

It seems we are trying to protect the weak and punishing the stronger kids (i.e. penalizing for too many TD's, and for someone FF'ing to them).  How about just stepping to the line and wrestling and making stronger better members of society out of these boys ? 

I am sure this is going to draw some nasty comments back at me but come on people !!!!

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3 hours ago, tyquhp13 said:

I had to look up the definition for "oligarchy" :D

Although not many - one of the advantages of being a Social Studies teacher :)

The FF thing is what it is - I get the thinking/reasoning behind it. Just seems to be a little bit of a hassle/over-reach to me. Oh well...

Now, don't get me started on sectional realignments! 

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29 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

Joe, in this scenario, the other kid would get the seed with the forfeits added into his win percentage.  He gets the seed either way.

Fat fingers, the other kid is 14-6 currently. We could have had a head to head, but he didn't wrestle us. Now my kid gets punished. Even if they have the same record that forfeit burns my kid. Two kids similar records, one didn't wrestle us when we presented him. My kid is being punished because he drew forfeits against teams like Penn, Elkhart Memorial, Hobart, etc. 

There are way more scenarios of a kid getting screwed by this than one having 10+ forfeits and snagging seeds.

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3 hours ago, Mattyb said:

Some schools are throwing small schools a bone and keeping them on their schedules with the hope to keep their wrestling programs alive. By wrestling a team with a bunch of open weights, it hurts a school. I can see programs not being able to get duals and dying because of this. This is BAD for wrestling.

And Danny,.... Sometimes a forfeit does show who the better wrestler is when you have coaches unwilling to send kids out against better kids. Coaches need to start coaching those kids up and put them on the mat. I see this way too much.  

Yeppers.  I was thinking the same thing.  This is going to hurt struggling programs get duels.

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57 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

Joe, in this scenario, the other kid would get the seed with the forfeits added into his win percentage.  He gets the seed either way.

Yes, he would - because they ducked Joe's guy. Had he not forfeited and then wrestled later in the day, who knows.

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33 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Fat fingers, the other kid is 14-6 currently. We could have had a head to head, but he didn't wrestle us. Now my kid gets punished. Even if they have the same record that forfeit burns my kid. Two kids similar records, one didn't wrestle us when we presented him. My kid is being punished because he drew forfeits against teams like Penn, Elkhart Memorial, Hobart, etc. 

There are way more scenarios of a kid getting screwed by this than one having 10+ forfeits and snagging seeds.

Sorry we were not "ducking" you. We had the flu bug go through and didnt find out till 4:30 in the morning of Team State. Penn doesnt "duck" anyone to save our records. 

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22 minutes ago, crosstownrivals said:

Sorry we were not "ducking" you. We had the flu bug go through and didnt find out till 4:30 in the morning of Team State. Penn doesnt "duck" anyone to save our records. 

That is a good point also actually.  So your kid has the flu bug and would probably lose the match anyways.  The kid that receives the forfeit gets penalized for another kid not being able wrestle.

In any other sport if someone is sick or injured does that hurt the other team in the play offs?

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Adding to MattyB post with my two cents, this is bad for Indiana wrestling.  This will result in a drop in quality competition mat time for good kids from smaller, developing programs.  Teams will be dropped or strong teams will pull out of duals with small teams to avoid being penalized for forfeits.  Developing teams will find it harder and harder to get back onto a schedule that exposes their talented kids to other quality talent that pushes and raises their skill level.   A greater rift will be formed between large programs and small programs resulting in a stagnation in the smaller program talent development.  As a whole, this hurts those kids in that situation and has an overall impact of lowering the depth of Indiana wrestling talent.

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14 minutes ago, Clan Campbell said:

Adding to MattyB post with my two cents, this is bad for Indiana wrestling.  This will result in a drop in quality competition mat time for good kids from smaller, developing programs.  Teams will be dropped or strong teams will pull out of duals with small teams to avoid being penalized for forfeits.  Developing teams will find it harder and harder to get back onto a schedule that exposes their talented kids to other quality talent that pushes and raises their skill level.   A greater rift will be formed between large programs and small programs resulting in a stagnation in the smaller program talent development.  As a whole, this hurts those kids in that situation and has an overall impact of lowering the depth of Indiana wrestling talent.

Oligarchy - a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique.

Their thought process is designed around their "powerhouse" programs...not the also-rans of the world. Get better and get on our level, or get trampled on! 

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Honestly they have stated this many many times. They only care about crowning a State Champion so really we should just do away with seed meeting and go Connersville on this thing.

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