Mattyb Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 46 minutes ago, MountieMod said: Again, my issue is with the rule and not personal. I'm sure your wrestler is a good kid. But if a wrestler is so injured that he has to call injury time in every single match, then IMO he should not be medically cleared to compete. And I don't think a high school wrestler competing with a serious Injury makes him a warrior, I think it makes him a victim. Different cultures I guess I’m trying to be nice about this with you. Clearly your kid has knee issues also. He had two very large knee sleeves on!! Is that just for looks? With that said, the issues popped up again Friday night. He made it that far.. he wasn’t going to quit after that. According to your post, im guessing your kid would have called it a season??? He did all he could and had to default in placement match when he couldn’t go anymore. By keeping going he helped the team win it. He’s feeling ok today and had no regrets and can’t wait for his ring. So to recap your concerns… 1. He took multiple injury times In the win against your son… that’s false 2. He took injury times during the match when he was about to get turned… false only stoppages were potentially dangerous calls by the best ref in the state. Injury time was taken after the knee was bent all crazy. Once it was stable he continued and continued to take shots in the third. 3. Now your issue is the culture of my family of hoe we handled this injury this season. I assure you my son had the best doctors, trainers avg physical therapist possible. You can’t just say… “nothing personal” and then question my kids integrity, my family culture and my parenting. That’s the definition of personal… Sour grapes much??? Again I’m trying ti be civil but you’re making it difficult. Let’s get this knee right and Caden will give him a rematch in a few months. Would that make you happy? I promise he will be a lot better then. I’m over this discussion. Again, super proud of my kid my state champs. Edited February 20 by Mattyb HWTDAD, maligned, Tcarter and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountieMod Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, Mattyb said: I’m trying to be nice about this with you. Clearly your kid has knee issues also. He had two very large knee sleeves on!! Is that just for looks? With that said, the issues popped up again Friday night. He made it that far.. he wasn’t going to quit after that. According to your post, im guessing your kid would have called it a season??? He did all he could and had to default in placement match when he couldn’t go anymore. By keeping going he helped the team win it. He’s feeling ok today and had no regrets and can’t wait for his ring. So to recap your concerns… 1. He took multiple injury times In the win against your son… that’s false 2. He took injury times during the match when he was about to get turned… false only stoppages were potentially dangerous calls by the best ref in the state. Injury time was taken after the knee was bent all crazy. Once it was stable he continued and continued to take shots in the third. 3. Now your issue is the culture of my family of hoe we handled this injury this season. I assure you my son had the best doctors, trainers avg physical therapist possible. You can’t just say… “nothing personal” and then question my kids integrity, my family culture and my parenting. That’s the definition of personal… Sour grapes much??? Again I’m trying ti be civil but you’re making it difficult. Let’s get this knee right and Caden will give him a rematch in a few months. Would that make you happy? I promise he will be a lot better then. I’m over this discussion. Again, super proud of my kid my state champs. I'm sure you are proud of your son. I don't think anything about the above post indicates that you're trying to be nice about this, and you just made it personal by calling out my kid, which I had not done. If you read my post, I did not question your integrity, I said that my kid and our program do not take injury time for strategic reasons. I hate the injury time rule, and always have. Until they impose some kind of cost for calling your own injury time, some wrestlers and teams will.continue to abuse the rule. That said, even if there is a legitimate injury, I still believe there has to be a cost for being unable to continue the match. And yes, we have been in your shoes, and no he did not continue because some things are more important. If the adults charged with safe guarding your athlete's health and well-being tell you he shouldn't go, he shouldn't go. And no, I don't have sour grapes. Our wrestler's are taught to be accountable and he lost the match. It still doesn't mean that I have to like the rule. Good luck to you and your son. I hope he has a safe surgery and recovery. Mattyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, MountieMod said: I Until they impose some kind of cost for calling your own injury time, some wrestlers and teams will.continue to abuse the rule. That said, even if there is a legitimate injury, I still believe there has to be a cost for being unable to continue the match. And yes, we have been in your shoes, and no he did not continue because some things are more important. If the adults charged with safe guarding your athlete's health and well-being tell you he shouldn't go, he shouldn't go. Think about injury time outs in the sporting world. In most cases, you're not penalized for taking an injury time out. Why should wrestling be different. And even pro athletes call their own time outs. Lets not jump on wrestlers. Generally, the only penalty for injuries in team sports is you have to come out of the game for one play. The only kind of penalty i can think of is in football like under two minutes where you get a ten second run off for an injury when clock is still running. . Wrestling actually is odd and punitive in itself as it does have a penalty on 2nd and 3rd timeout. Examples Look at other individual sports: Tennis, the ATP rules allows 3 injury time outs then disqualified on fourth. But no point penalties, and endurance and momentum is very important in tennis. Boxing- You're TKO'd with injury. But arguably, the point in Boxing is to hurt the other guy. Keep in mind you do have time-outs between periods. Gymnastics- If you get hurt on a routine, you go or dont go. You do get two vaults. Racing-Track and field, Swimming, cycling- You just lose. No time to make up for injury Golf- You get plenty of time for trainer to come out. Time and endurance aren't factors. MMA-see boxing Fencing- 5 minute medical break. No penalty Jumping Track and field- Plenty of time to see trainer until next Jump. Just on clock (Long, High, Pole vault) Billiards- No Penalty, but the referee can set a shot clock if he considers slow play and can determine how long injury goes. Bowling- no penalty. Just reasonable amount of time until next frame to decide to go or not. Edited February 20 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Professor Morgan Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Pretty sure MMA and boxing have a recovery time for like eye pokes and nut shots Wrestling Scholar and Beamaker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamGarcia Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Like it, Hate it, Love it, Turn it, Shake it, Flip it, Stomp it, Talk it, Walk it … whatever you wanna do with it . Injury Time/Blood Time will always be a rule in HS Folkstyle Wrestling Folks . Refs has the wrestlers well being 1st and foremost in matches .Thats wrestling for ya folks , always has, always been . It’s never ever gonna change . HWTDAD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 53 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said: Think about injury time outs in the sporting world. In most cases, you're not penalized for taking an injury time out. Why should wrestling be different. And even pro athletes call their own time outs. Lets not jump on wrestlers. Generally, the only penalty for injuries in team sports is you have to come out of the game for one play. The only kind of penalty i can think of is in football like under two minutes where you get a ten second run off for an injury when clock is still running. . Wrestling actually is odd and punitive in itself as it does have a penalty on 2nd and 3rd timeout. When have we ever wanted to be compared to other sports? That's how we ended up with no wrestlebacks. For the record I honestly didn't key in on any injury calls this weekend I thought were gamesmanship. I was just stating I have been seeing it a lot recently and feel we need to do what we can to minimize and curb it as much as possible. Personally, I had a wrestler who got a bloody nose every match and we were never able to use our conditioning to break an opponent which drove me nuts, I can't stand breaks in the flow of the matches but that is the style I enjoy watching and coaching. MUSKEEWRESTLER, piscis1956, CainBones and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Cooper Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 Well this topic went a bit sideways. The intent of my original post and topic was that we as coaches have a responsibility to see that injury time isn't abused. There is a difference between an injury and using the injury timeout to collect your thoughts, breath, escape a situation, etc. If we as a wrestling community are ok with using injury timeout as a strategy, well then my friends, we are no better than basketball and that's a direction I would rather not take. Also, single class wrestling sucks, there, that should get this topic headed in the right direction... Galagore, aoberlin, HWTDAD and 2 others 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 6 hours ago, Darrick Snyder said: Everyone can have an opinion on whether or not Caden should have wrestled with his knee injury....or whether or not Preston should have wrestled with his completely torn ACL. At Brownsburg, we listen to doctors with medical degrees. After meeting with multiple doctors (who have medical degrees and aren't googling it), both wrestlers were told they could push through the season if they chose....and get it fixed after the season. It was their decision with guidance from their family. We will continue to listen to people who get paid to be actual doctors. Every year for the last fifty (that is about my length of recollection) people always gripe about misuse of injury time. I think that sometimes injury time is abused, but there is nothing to be done about that except maybe scoring one point any time an injury time is taken when the Official determines a score is imminent. Other than that I fear we begin to penalize a kid who is injured and that should not happen. I thinik most coaches, if they wil admit it, have had a kid who faked it to get a rest. I remember once back in the early eighties when my guy was wretling in the Regional and in the middle of a flurry he began to scream. The Official stopped the action, and I quickly moved to him. I told him to lie still and asked him where he was injured,. He looked up and said, "I'm not injured coach I just need a break." I wanted to kill him, ir was embarassing eventhough no one knew. I told him to lay there until I helped him up. I got him up and had him walk around, and then he went back to wrestling. The "break" did not help as he got beat fairly soundly. THe next week at praxctice I made him run each day. He asked why and I told him it he needed a break during the match he must not be in shape. There may have been others, but nearly as blatant. HWTDAD, No One Famous, piscis1956 and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamGarcia Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 19 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said: Well this topic went a bit sideways. The intent of my original post and topic was that we as coaches have a responsibility to see that injury time isn't abused. There is a difference between an injury and using the injury timeout to collect your thoughts, breath, escape a situation, etc. If we as a wrestling community are ok with using injury timeout as a strategy, well then my friends, we are no better than basketball and that's a direction I would rather not take. Also, single class wrestling sucks, there, that should get this topic headed in the right direction... So….. @Chris Cooperwhere does the picture of a dead horse should pop up at . Now before they come MUSKEEWRESTLER and HWTDAD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Ratliff Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 It's a difficult situation. On one hand, it's designed to protect a wrestler and determine if they can continue wrestling. One the other hand, some wrestler's use injury time like an Iranian with a shoe untied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 #1 calling out individual kids is something that you need to refrain from or else there will be a forced vacation from posting. #2 ask Coach Peck said, it comes up every year. The solution is hairy as you cannot penalize a kid for being hurt with points. The way NCAA does it with choice of position for the injury time is the best way to do it in my gracious opinion. While this isn't a punishment via points it gives the other wrestler an advantage that they must make use of. Momma2Dickmans, Justin Ratliff, MUSKEEWRESTLER and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indypharmd Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Very interesting twists on this thread... Interesting take by some posters criticizing some wrestlers and their parents for making decisions to compete this season vs. not due to injuries... A few thoughts... these athletes only get 4 years to compete in HS for the sport they've trained in since most were 4 years old. To give up a season when a physician says it's your choice, it's not surprising most chose to continue competing... There's no medical red shirt in high school sports. Guys like Preston Haines who missed a season that he'd likely have been the state champ, know what it feels like to miss out, so no surprise he wanted to continue... Parker Reynolds defied statistics with his recovery, read Gregg Doyel's IndyStar article for info there... Guys like Reynolds, Brewer, Haines did all they could to compete to help the team win the title this year and didn't want to let their teammates and coaches down. Additionally for what it is worth, Brewer wrestled lights out at Evansville and you could tell that his lower extremity issue wasn't affecting him as much on that Saturday as it was at state... So, if a poster wants to opine about the rule, i get it. Casting shade at athletes from certain schools to further your gripe is probably not necessary at all and makes issues personal imo... HWTDAD and Alex Skipper 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcjcjc Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 23 hours ago, The Professor Morgan said: Pretty sure MMA and boxing have a recovery time for like eye pokes and nut shots Those would be similar to recovery time not injury time, though the DQ, no decision, default stuff differs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestleman101 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 23 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said: Think about injury time outs in the sporting world. In most cases, you're not penalized for taking an injury time out. Why should wrestling be different. And even pro athletes call their own time outs. Lets not jump on wrestlers. Generally, the only penalty for injuries in team sports is you have to come out of the game for one play. The only kind of penalty i can think of is in football like under two minutes where you get a ten second run off for an injury when clock is still running. . Wrestling actually is odd and punitive in itself as it does have a penalty on 2nd and 3rd timeout. Examples Look at other individual sports: Tennis, the ATP rules allows 3 injury time outs then disqualified on fourth. But no point penalties, and endurance and momentum is very important in tennis. Boxing- You're TKO'd with injury. But arguably, the point in Boxing is to hurt the other guy. Keep in mind you do have time-outs between periods. Gymnastics- If you get hurt on a routine, you go or dont go. You do get two vaults. Racing-Track and field, Swimming, cycling- You just lose. No time to make up for injury Golf- You get plenty of time for trainer to come out. Time and endurance aren't factors. MMA-see boxing Fencing- 5 minute medical break. No penalty Jumping Track and field- Plenty of time to see trainer until next Jump. Just on clock (Long, High, Pole vault) Billiards- No Penalty, but the referee can set a shot clock if he considers slow play and can determine how long injury goes. Bowling- no penalty. Just reasonable amount of time until next frame to decide to go or not. You just compared wrestling to tennis, golf, and bowling...? HornetSloan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachJoyce Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 This weekend I watched a kid signal for injury time while close to getting taken down, the ref didn't see it/didn't stop it, the kid ended up defending back to neutral (no takedown), then continued to wrestle the next 1+ minute of the match. My thoughts on how to curb some of this: Referee Injury time/stoppage = No penalty Wrestler/Coach calls for Injury time = Opponent has choice on reset (just as with a second injury time in current rules). MUSKEEWRESTLER and Rugger44 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet Coach Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 It is up to the coaches (the adults in the situation) to try to teach the proper lessons such as integrity, accountability, and character. I know many coaches will teach kids to take advantage of the way the rule is written to gain an advantage and they believe this is the right lesson to teach (use any advantage you can to gain an edge even if it goes against the integrity of the rule as long as you aren't "breaking" any rules). I disagree with this mindset, I believe you should uphold the spirit and integrity of the rule. A win is not worth sacrificing the life lessons that this great sport teaches such as perseverance, discipline, self accountability, character, and integrity. You do not take "blood" time, unless there is blood, and you don't take "injury" time unless there is an injury. If you call getting out of an unfavorable situation, or taking a breather because you're tired an injury, we have a vastly different definition of what an injury is, and we have a vastly different opinion on what we should be teaching our athletes. We are in the business of developing good humans first, and great athletes as a byproduct of teaching such lessons. If you are teaching the other way around, I believe you are doing your student-athletes a disservice. Just one coach's humble opinion. MUSKEEWRESTLER, Chris Cooper, TrueRegionFan and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 59 minutes ago, wrestleman101 said: You just compared wrestling to tennis, golf, and bowling...? I try to be inclusive as were comparing individual sports. Its not as ridiculous as billiards, which you apparently can get hurt in. There was some irony intended. But, tennis and wrestling are more similar then you think when it comes to controversies over injuries. They're the two sports where you see controversies over injury timeouts, even more in tennis There's been some a few moments in tennis where some big momentum swings occurred. As documented in the move "King Richard", which was about Serena's and Venus dad, Richard Williams. In Venus' 1st pro tournament, she was playing #1 world player Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario. Venus destroyed Sanchez-Vicario in the 1st set. The veteran Sanchez-Vicario took an extended injury timeout, while the anxious Venus Williams waited. This totally affected the match, and she ended up winning the match. Edited February 21 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said: Edited February 21 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 52 minutes ago, CoachJoyce said: My thoughts on how to curb some of this: Referee Injury time/stoppage = No penalty Wrestler/Coach calls for Injury time = Opponent has choice on reset (just as with a second injury time in current rules). A lot of times the referee stoppage/"wrestler call out" is the same thing. For example, If a kid is yelling, "my knee, my knee". Then the ref susequently stops it for injury, who called the injury time out under your proposed rule? Edited February 21 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 I watched a wrestler call injury time by waiving his finger after walking back to the center of the mat (after they went out of bounds). The coach then brought him water and they just stood there. No trainer or inhaler, nothing, took nearly the whole 1.5 minutes then say he was ready to continue. Not sure how you want to perceive or manage that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, CoachJoyce said: This weekend I watched a kid signal for injury time while close to getting taken down, the ref didn't see it/didn't stop it, the kid ended up defending back to neutral (no takedown), then continued to wrestle the next 1+ minute of the match. My thoughts on how to curb some of this: Referee Injury time/stoppage = No penalty Wrestler/Coach calls for Injury time = Opponent has choice on reset (just as with a second injury time in current rules). As logical as this sounds I would hate for a referee to be on the hook to determine if the athlete is injured during action. That seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen and refs have enough to deal with. Beamaker, Wrestling Scholar, RAJR and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said: I try to be inclusive as were comparing individual sports. Its not as ridiculous as billiards, which you apparently can get hurt in. There was some irony intended. But, tennis and wrestling are more similar then you think when it comes to controversies over injuries. They're the two sports where you see controversies over injury timeouts, even more in tennis There's been some a few moments in tennis where some big momentum swings occurred. As documented in the move "King Richard", which was about Serena's and Venus dad, Richard Williams. In Venus' 1st pro tournament, she was playing #1 world player Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario. Venus destroyed Sanchez-Vicario in the 1st set. The veteran Sanchez-Vicario took an extended injury timeout, while the anxious Venus Williams waited. This totally affected the match, and she ended up winning the match. But what you are referring to is calling for injury time during a stoppage. That is a lot different than calling for an official to stop live action for injury time. It is my understanding that in tennis, a player can't turn to the official and call time-out in the middle of playing for a point. If they are injured during play, they have to play though it &/or concede the point & can only then call for injury time during a stoppage. There is a big difference between a wrestler calling for injury time during live action verses calling for it during a current stoppage. It is still against the spirit of the rule if there is no injury, but a big difference just the same. And just FYI, it is in the NFHS wrestling rules that it is unethical to call for injury time if there is no injury. So any coach who would teach using the one allowed injury timeout without penalty as being smart or strategic is without a doubt wrong & unethical. piscis1956 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawdiggity Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 51 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: As logical as this sounds I would hate for a referee to be on the hook to determine if the athlete is injured during action. That seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen and refs have enough to deal with. Agree. Serious question though - could the referee stand next to the injured coach and athlete? If they are discussing an injury or anything of that nature (examining them, stretching them, using an inhaler) and the conversation is about something medical let it continue. However if the discussion is about anything non-medical (example - match advice or strategy) and they are just drinking water and talking or even just catching their breathe then the ref has the ability to ask “is something injured”. Limit the discussion to assisting an injury. If not, call time and have them wrestle. And I know there are lots of ways this TOO can go sideways. Just curious if this has ever been discussed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, randalllynch said: I watched a wrestler call injury time by waiving his finger after walking back to the center of the mat (after they went out of bounds). The coach then brought him water and they just stood there. No trainer or inhaler, nothing, took nearly the whole 1.5 minutes then say he was ready to continue. Not sure how you want to perceive or manage that. This is what I am referring to when I spoke about the difference between calling for injury time during live action or a current stoppage. It is still wrong to do if there is no injury but is far less egregious than calling for it during live action if there is no injury. But if it is asked for, an official has to grant it. And for others to judge whether it is justified or not is pure speculation. Many times an injury is not necessarily obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 3 minutes ago, Lawdiggity said: Agree. Serious question though - could the referee stand next to the injured coach and athlete? If they are discussing an injury or anything of that nature (examining them, stretching them, using an inhaler) and the conversation is about something medical let it continue. However if the discussion is about anything non-medical (example - match advice or strategy) and they are just drinking water and talking or even just catching their breathe then the ref has the ability to ask “is something injured”. Limit the discussion to assisting an injury. If not, call time and have them wrestle. And I know there are lots of ways this TOO can go sideways. Just curious if this has ever been discussed? Coach then learns to tweak the conversation: "Be sure to be careful with that [insert made up injury] as you work for [insert desired match strategy adjustments]..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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