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Jayruss

Worst draw

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14 minutes ago, grappleapple said:

The first round draws aren't so bad here, but 182 is loaded on one side of the bracket. You have No. 1 Walton, No. 2 Cressell and No. 3 Allred all right there together.

As a newbie, why is this continued to be allowed to happen?  Why is everything else seeded / placed except for the most important day?  

This will be my 3rd state finals watching and this never makes sense to me on why there are these ridiculous draws?  Under the lights should be the best two wrestlers...not one that went through a meat grinder to get there and another that had an easier path.  To be certain, I'm taking nothing away from anyone that has or will get there...just seems like something is wrong with this picture (and especially since everything else is seeded in some manner).

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The only thing that is seeded in some manner is sectionals. Regionals goes totally off of placement. Semistate is blind draws based on your placement just like State.

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57 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

As a newbie, why is this continued to be allowed to happen?  Why is everything else seeded / placed except for the most important day?  

This will be my 3rd state finals watching and this never makes sense to me on why there are these ridiculous draws?  Under the lights should be the best two wrestlers...not one that went through a meat grinder to get there and another that had an easier path.  To be certain, I'm taking nothing away from anyone that has or will get there...just seems like something is wrong with this picture (and especially since everything else is seeded in some manner).

I don't know how you can determine who the "best" wrestlers are. No disrespect to those that do the awesome rankings here, but those aren't gospel. You can't say kid A is ranked higher than kid B, so he must be better. If that was the case, only the No. 1 ranked guy should win each year. Ultimately, the best wrestler in the state tournament that weekend will be the one that wins, no matter who is in front of them.

Edited by grappleapple

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32 minutes ago, grappleapple said:

I don't know how you can determine who the "best" wrestlers are. No disrespect to those that do the awesome rankings here, but those aren't gospel. You can't say kid A is ranked higher than kid B, so he must be better. If that was the case, only the No. 1 ranked guy should win each year. Ultimately, the best wrestler in the state tournament that weekend will be the one that wins, no matter who is in front of them.

Yes of course.  But it's also disingenuous to pretend that there isn't a way to seed it.  There are plenty of stats that could help.  

And I guess that means wrestling should also follow in football's shoes and have a total blind draw sectional as well?  Nothing more awesome than 6A football where 2 of the best teams in the state playing each other week 1 on one side of the 4 team bracket, and 2 teams with a combined 3 wins playing each other on the other side.  And this happens every year.  It stinks that the state finals of wrestling follows a similar course.

But your point is true...the best that weekend gets through.  My issue is more that 2 of them eliminate each other earlier than necessary.  That matters to the IHSAA title race since for some reason it's determined off the individual state tournament. 

Edited by Kookie953

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1 hour ago, grappleapple said:

The first round draws aren't so bad here, but 182 is loaded on one side of the bracket. You have No. 1 Walton, No. 2 Cressell and No. 3 Allred all right there together.

Because of that loaded bracket, if rankings hold true, Brenden Moore or Jamari Washington would have to beat #'s 1, 2, and 3 before facing #4 in the state championship. Not sure it can be statistically harder than that to have a tougher road!! :)

Edited by maligned

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11 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

Yes of course.  But it's also disingenuous to pretend that there isn't a way to seed it.  There are plenty of stats that could help.  

And I guess that means wrestling should also follow in football's shoes and have a total blind draw sectional as well?  Nothing more awesome than 6A football where 2 of the best teams in the state playing each other week 1 on one side of the 4 team bracket, and 2 teams with a combined 3 wins playing each other on the other side.  And this happens every year.  It stinks that the state finals of wrestling follows a similar course.

But your point is true...the best that weekend gets through.  My issue is more that 2 of them eliminate each other earlier than necessary.  That matters to the IHSAA title race since for some reason it's determined off the individual state tournament. 

I'm a stats guy, so I would of course love to see it seeded better. But the way it's designed now isn't THAT bad in how it comes out as long as the two best guys end up on the opposite side of the bracket. If the IHSAA would simply agree to put the two highest ranked semi-state champs in opposite brackets and then randomly draw the rest according to their standard formula, it would be a very simple, very significant upgrade.

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27 minutes ago, maligned said:

I'm a stats guy, so I would of course love to see it seeded better. But the way it's designed now isn't THAT bad in how it comes out as long as the two best guys end up on the opposite side of the bracket. If the IHSAA would simply agree to put the two highest ranked semi-state champs in opposite brackets and then randomly draw the rest according to their standard formula, it would be a very simple, very significant upgrade.

I agree,   but would you seed by ranking or prior year results in the state tournament and maybe head to head within season?

 

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Pistol is “blind” in one eye cause of that rascal Wyoming Cowboy mascot shot my eye out with a with a 357 magnum. That’s way Pistol always mean mugging everybody.  Pistol was quick on the trigger with a quick “draw” Custom made Colt 45 (not the drink fellas, I’m quick at that to) shot that wannabe fake mascot rascal of Pistol drop dead. Woooooo .... Bang ! Bang ! Bang !

The Great John Smith says Congrats and Goodluck to all the IHSAA State Finalists ! 

Pistol Pete 

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1 hour ago, grappleapple said:

I don't know how you can determine who the "best" wrestlers are. No disrespect to those that do the awesome rankings here, but those aren't gospel. You can't say kid A is ranked higher than kid B, so he must be better. If that was the case, only the No. 1 ranked guy should win each year. Ultimately, the best wrestler in the state tournament that weekend will be the one that wins, no matter who is in front of them.

Great point Jeremy.  It aligns with Silas and I's philosophy to a "T".  Being fairly new to the sport of wrestling compared to many on this site (7yrs). I would grow a little more perturbed every year as I would hear parents/coaches/wrestlers complaining about draws, or hoping they had an easy road through.  I can tell you this......that was rarely an issue with the Doah coaches.  Slivka, Gary Jr & Sr each had a "bring it on mentality".  Being cut from that similar cloth, is a major factor of our growing so close off the mat as well.  I'll only add that Coach Barbosa has carried on that same approach. It comes natural for him being from the south side of Muncie. ?  Assistant Coach Walker is no different.

The Allred outlook is simple......Those who worry about the draw are entertaining fear & self doubt.  Hoping for an easy path is reserved for individuals whose bartering for podium spots.  Not for those whose goal is its peak.  Cressel & Walton are both very deserving of all the recognition and success they've worked so hard for.  They're well coached and their college commitments speak for themselves.  However.....these are matches we've wanted all season.  But we'll focus on beating Moore Friday night first.

Bottom line......We love the draw.  Awesome opportunity to make a LOUD statement!  And they'll be dealing with a hungry youngster whose well prepared, well studied, unafraid to lose.....and wrestling free with no pressure. The best 182lb'er in the State will stand on top of the podium this weekend regardless of their bracket pairings.  And it could be any 1 of 16 young men in the bracket.  We genuinely wish everyone competing a great week of practice, continued good health and to just enjoy the moment.  Go to war, have fun and score points.  Never lose sight of how much of a blessing it is to be there.

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1 hour ago, maligned said:

I'm a stats guy, so I would of course love to see it seeded better. But the way it's designed now isn't THAT bad in how it comes out as long as the two best guys end up on the opposite side of the bracket. If the IHSAA would simply agree to put the two highest ranked semi-state champs in opposite brackets and then randomly draw the rest according to their standard formula, it would be a very simple, very significant upgrade.

Great post and great idea.  Makes a lot of sense.  

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Here's critieria Ohio uses to seed their District champions in order to separate top 3 placers in the state tournament.

D. Returning OHSAA State Placers that finished either 1st, 2nd or 3rd the previous year will be separated in accordance with their previous place provided they qualify for the State Individual Tournament as a District Champion.
E. If Returning State Placers are from the same district, the wrestler(s) only loss must be to a top three (3) state placer from last year.

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As far as State seeding goes it would be pretty simple I would think for criteria for the top 2 only guys.

Last years placing at that weight.

Last years placing at another weight.

If neither one of those 2 things come into play.  Do like we do now.  I get it you will get some stud freshman come through or a kid that go beat out in the ticket round last year.  But at least we don't see 2 kids that were under the lights last year see each other in the semi finals and this takes any judgement calls out of the equation.

 

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Just wondering how do they do it now. i mean we all know 1-4 and 2-3 but how do they pick what semi-state you draw into your 1-4 2-3. Hat for each weight or is it a rotation? 

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27 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

As far as State seeding goes it would be pretty simple I would think for criteria for the top 2 only guys.

Last years placing at that weight.

Last years placing at another weight.

If neither one of those 2 things come into play.  Do like we do now.  I get it you will get some stud freshman come through or a kid that go beat out in the ticket round last year.  But at least we don't see 2 kids that were under the lights last year see each other in the semi finals and this takes any judgement calls out of the equation.

 

Say both wrestlers placed fifth. They are wrestling at 170 pounds - but they placed fifth at 152 and 160 pounds the year earlier. What happens?

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1 hour ago, RKS22 said:

Eli Dickens and Manzona Bryant is rough.

LJ Burdon beating Dickens was a big surprise to me.. but he wrestled awesome Saturday and showed that being a freshman/ sophmore state champion to beating these caliber wrestlers has been fun to watch.. his dad is good ppl 

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2 hours ago, grappleapple said:

Say both wrestlers placed fifth. They are wrestling at 170 pounds - but they placed fifth at 152 and 160 pounds the year earlier. What happens?

I would say 160 gets the number 1 and 152 gets the 2.  Or at that time since they met the first criteria they could look for past years performance and if there is nothing there than possibly win percentage.

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Didn’t say anything about being soft.  My point is that we aren’t the only ones that  set up a tournament the way we do. You can hardly seed the sectionals because too many coaches are trying to get a competitive advantage as opposed to separating the best wrestlers. No way could you come up with a system to separate the kids at semi-state or state that anybody would agree to. 

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