Class Wrestling Question

[Galagore]

1 minute ago, blueandgold said:

This isn’t total wrestlers on each level, but it’s 2023 NCAA Qualifiers in Division I, and Illinois produced over four times as many which I think is an indicator.

 

So about 4 and half times as many from IL than from IN

[blueandgold]

40 minutes ago, M109R said:

Not trolling , provide facts that it will grow the sport in Indiana instead of comparing us to a neighboring state that is twice the size . 

I feel like @Galagore and @Y2CJ41 and numerous others have provided plenty of those facts by giving firsthand accounts of issues going on in their schools and pointing to the increased participation numbers due to events such as Classed Team State or 1A/2A State. Kids will do something if they feel like they have a shot to be successful. Your school says you’re from Penn and I went to Perry Meridian, both 4A schools. Why does it matter so much to you that 4A schools need to wrestle the Churubusco kid with a 17-17 record in the first round of the regional who won’t make a difference to either of our paths to a state title or interrupt our point totals for a team title? Is it because by dividing us into classes, you’re afraid to start seeing more big schools taken out at the regional and semi-state levels?

[M109R]

I think the EC Semistate would get easier if you removed small schools like Rochester, the few studs at New Prairie , Hanover Central and a host of others. 

[Y2CJ41]

1 hour ago, M109R said:

Not trolling , provide facts that it will grow the sport in Indiana instead of comparing us to a neighboring state that is twice the size . 

Provide facts that class wrestling will hurt the state.

[Y2CJ41]

17 hours ago, M109R said:

Never said he did . My point was that 90% of kids good enough to win  a state title have been wrestling since a very young age . You better than most should know this , that's why when they introduce a finalist at state or say the Al Smith . They say he's a 9 time ISWA Folkstyle state champion . That dude was winning titles at 7-9 years old . It really wouldn't matter what high school he goes to .IMO Jeffrey Huyvaert will be a multiple Indiana state champion . Do you think he got that good by going to New Prairie ? 

You keep mentioning these state champions like they are just everywhere.

 

The thing you fail to realize is that we have approximately 4000 high school wrestlers in this state. Only 14 become state champions, that is .35% if you are good at math. 

 

The people beating the drum of class wrestling don't give a hoot about those 14 kids. Those kids will be successful in the sport no matter what. If we only allow the champs from sectional, regional, and semi-state to advance to state, these guys will likely still win. These guys aren't the ones people are concerned with.

 

What people are concerned with are the 1500ish wrestlers at small schools. What those small school wrestlers represent are people learning the great lessons of the sport. The more people that can participate in wrestling and have a good experience in doing so will be better for everyone. The more kids that participate in athletics at the high school level overall is good for society. Those kids represent the future referees, coaches, wrestling parents, and wrestling fans. If they do not have a good experience in wrestling they will not continue to support the sport and it will die. As shown every year, the forfeits at the small school levels are rising at a steady pace. One of the best ways to help that is to make the playing field level for those athletes. Why would they choose to wrestle when football, basketball, baseball, etc are all classed and they enjoy way more success in those sports? Why work hard, cut weight, get beat up, wear a singlet, etc and have very little success? That's a simple question and I'm sure you'll say something about kids and society being weak, but that's a copout without looking at something as simple as classing the sport.

 

There are 45 other states that have class wrestling, why are we one of the last ones on this boat? It definitely is not making our wrestlers better as we have been hovering in the 10-15 range as a state for 20+ years. Having single class wrestling isn't helping us in participation as we are basically average in the midwest. So at what point do we look at our fancy spotlight and wonder if it is worth it to kill the sport at the small school level?

[SIACfan]

1 hour ago, blueandgold said:

This isn’t total wrestlers on each level, but it’s 2023 NCAA Qualifiers in Division I, and Illinois produced over four times as many which I think is an indicator.

 

Nice thanks!

 

So Indiana ranked 14th in NCAA DI qualifiers in 2023. Slightly better than what should be expected from our population (17th).

 

Additionally as I guessed, if you re-rank them looking at qualifiers per capita Indiana goes to 11th.

 

1. Iowa 5.0 qualifiers per 1 million in population

2. Pennsylvania 3.5

3. Oklahoma 3.2

4. Illinois 2.5

5. New Jersey 2.5

6. Minnesota 2.1

7. Ohio 1.9

8. Missouri 1.9

9. Michigan 1.6

10. Colorado 1.5

11. Indiana 1.0

12. New York 0.9

13. California 0.5

14. Florida 0.4

 

So as you can see Indiana while considerably behind the best wrestling states in the country, we are out performing our population numbers. And how many states with class wrestling is going to rank below us I wonder? Sorry but I do not believe that this proves beyond a doubt that class wrestling is going to improve our quality.

 

Of course this does not include the entire list. I could only do this exercise for the short list that you provided. There are perhaps some states that are below us in pure numbers that would go ahead of us per capita.

 

But again, I am not against class wrestling. It is needed for the team aspect. Unfortunately, the IHSAA is not concerned with that.

[SIACfan]

16 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

You keep mentioning these state champions like they are just everywhere.

 

The thing you fail to realize is that we have approximately 4000 high school wrestlers in this state. Only 14 become state champions, that is .35% if you are good at math. 

 

The people beating the drum of class wrestling don't give a hoot about those 14 kids. Those kids will be successful in the sport no matter what. If we only allow the champs from sectional, regional, and semi-state to advance to state, these guys will likely still win. These guys aren't the ones people are concerned with.

 

What people are concerned with are the 1500ish wrestlers at small schools. What those small school wrestlers represent are people learning the great lessons of the sport. The more people that can participate in wrestling and have a good experience in doing so will be better for everyone. The more kids that participate in athletics at the high school level overall is good for society. Those kids represent the future referees, coaches, wrestling parents, and wrestling fans. If they do not have a good experience in wrestling they will not continue to support the sport and it will die. As shown every year, the forfeits at the small school levels are rising at a steady pace. One of the best ways to help that is to make the playing field level for those athletes. Why would they choose to wrestle when football, basketball, baseball, etc are all classed and they enjoy way more success in those sports? Why work hard, cut weight, get beat up, wear a singlet, etc and have very little success? That's a simple question and I'm sure you'll say something about kids and society being weak, but that's a copout without looking at something as simple as classing the sport.

 

There are 45 other states that have class wrestling, why are we one of the last ones on this boat? It definitely is not making our wrestlers better as we have been hovering in the 10-15 range as a state for 20+ years. Having single class wrestling isn't helping us in participation as we are basically average in the midwest. So at what point do we look at our fancy spotlight and wonder if it is worth it to kill the sport at the small school level?

 

These are good & valid points for class wrestling.

 

But none of this means that an individual at a big school has an advantage over an individual at a small one in the State tournament given how it is held now.

[M109R]

14 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

You keep mentioning these state champions like they are just everywhere.

 

The thing you fail to realize is that we have approximately 4000 high school wrestlers in this state. Only 14 become state champions, that is .35% if you are good at math. 

 

The people beating the drum of class wrestling don't give a hoot about those 14 kids. Those kids will be successful in the sport no matter what. If we only allow the champs from sectional, regional, and semi-state to advance to state, these guys will likely still win. These guys aren't the ones people are concerned with.

 

What people are concerned with are the 1500ish wrestlers at small schools. What those small school wrestlers represent are people learning the great lessons of the sport. The more people that can participate in wrestling and have a good experience in doing so will be better for everyone. The more kids that participate in athletics at the high school level overall is good for society. Those kids represent the future referees, coaches, wrestling parents, and wrestling fans. If they do not have a good experience in wrestling they will not continue to support the sport and it will die. As shown every year, the forfeits at the small school levels are rising at a steady pace. One of the best ways to help that is to make the playing field level for those athletes. Why would they choose to wrestle when football, basketball, baseball, etc are all classed and they enjoy way more success in those sports? Why work hard, cut weight, get beat up, wear a singlet, etc and have very little success? That's a simple question and I'm sure you'll say something about kids and society being weak, but that's a copout without looking at something as simple as classing the sport.

 

There are 45 other states that have class wrestling, why are we one of the last ones on this boat? It definitely is not making our wrestlers better as we have been hovering in the 10-15 range as a state for 20+ years. Having single class wrestling isn't helping us in participation as we are basically average in the midwest. So at what point do we look at our fancy spotlight and wonder if it is worth it to kill the sport at the small school level?

All very good points . Maybe I look at it from how I got interested in wrestling . I started in 7th grade because a friend of mine was a very good wrestler and talked me into wrestling . His grandpa had a little RV and drove us around to AAU tournaments  on the weekends . I was hooked , I never thought about Class sports or High School for that matter . Penn High School had nothing to do with what we were doing . It was Brad Downs Grandpa that gave up his time to take us on weekends . Can remember going to tourneys at Delta High School in the early 80's when they Were THE program in Indiana . I got beat up pretty good to say the least  , I could of cared less about making it to state or semistate in high school , I just loved the sport . 

[M109R]

54 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Provide facts that class wrestling will hurt the state.

I don't know that it would hurt the state , but I think more studs would transfer from small schools to larger ones for competition reasons . I admire studs like Huyvaert at New Prairie for staying in their school district . If you class the Individual tourney , who is his competition ? He would literally Tech or Pin his way to 4 titles . What about the studs at Rochester , who are their competition? Guys on this level like competition , I think you would see wide spread transferring worse than it already is . 

[aoberlin]

11 minutes ago, M109R said:

I don't know that it would hurt the state , but I think more studs would transfer from small schools to larger ones for competition reasons . I admire studs like Huyvaert at New Prairie for staying in their school district . If you class the Individual tourney , who is his competition ? He would literally Tech or Pin his way to 4 titles . What about the studs at Rochester , who are their competition? Guys on this level like competition , I think you would see wide spread transferring worse than it already is . 

Not sure that is a good argument. The good wrestlers may stay in the small program because those teams would have more success and that wrestler is still going to get his State title. It would just be up to those smaller schools to get into legit tournaments throughout the season. I think St. Paris Graham enjoys where they sit and how they handle it. They have 0 issues getting wrestlers all over the nation to wrestle for them in high school. Part of it is they have won State:  1982, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022.

 

Personally, I would like to see 3 divisions. Small schools, big schools, and recruiting schools. That would be suffice for me.

[M109R]

19 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

Not sure that is a good argument. The good wrestlers may stay in the small program because those teams would have more success and that wrestler is still going to get his State title. It would just be up to those smaller schools to get into legit tournaments throughout the season. I think St. Paris Graham enjoys where they sit and how they handle it. They have 0 issues getting wrestlers all over the nation to wrestle for them in high school. Part of it is they have won State:  1982, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022.

 

Personally, I would like to see 3 divisions. Small schools, big schools, and recruiting schools. That would be suffice for me.

Your comparing small programs in Indiana to SPG ???

[aoberlin]

23 minutes ago, M109R said:

Your comparing small programs in Indiana to SPG ???

538 students and it is public. I have stayed at their non-wireless having campuses more times than I would like to admit.

[M109R]

1 minute ago, aoberlin said:

538 Students.

I'm well aware of SPG enrollment . 

[SunDevils]

2 hours ago, M109R said:

I just loved the sport . 

 

I'm not entirely sure that spirits exists anymore across sports at any level.  Sports have in many ways become a means to an end, for athletes (and parents). However, I do hope that spirit is recaptured. It would make the sport far more enjoyable to watch from the fans perspective as well.

 

Mason Parris always wins with a joyous smile on his face, seems like he really loves the sport. A lot of the Penn State wrestlers seem very happy and genuinely love the sport (Mark Hall, Bo Nickal, and so on) probably one factor that propels them to such great heights. 

[Jcjcjc]

18 hours ago, SunDevils said:

 

I'm not entirely sure that spirits exists anymore across sports at any level.  Sports have in many ways become a means to an end, for athletes (and parents). However, I do hope that spirit is recaptured. It would make the sport far more enjoyable to watch from the fans perspective as well.

 

Mason Parris always wins with a joyous smile on his face, seems like he really loves the sport. A lot of the Penn State wrestlers seem very happy and genuinely love the sport (Mark Hall, Bo Nickal, and so on) probably one factor that propels them to such great heights. 

 

As someone who earned a college scholarship for wrestling, I often get wide eyed hearing parents that are actively seeking a college scholarship through wrestling, as most are not a high percentage of total costs, and many wrestlers who earn them don't complete all 4/5 years of the scholarship. So many wrestlers that are pushed to get a scholarship quit wrestling once they don't live in the same house as the people pushing them to get the scholarship. I'm sure this is a bit extreme, but 18 wrestlers joined my college team alongside me, and only 2 were on the roster the last semester of the scholarship/eligibility window. 

[aoberlin]

1 hour ago, Jcjcjc said:

 

As someone who earned a college scholarship for wrestling, I often get wide eyed hearing parents that are actively seeking a college scholarship through wrestling, as most are not a high percentage of total costs, and many wrestlers who earn them don't complete all 4/5 years of the scholarship. So many wrestlers that are pushed to get a scholarship quit wrestling once they don't live in the same house as the people pushing them to get the scholarship. I'm sure this is a bit extreme, but 18 wrestlers joined my college team alongside me, and only 2 were on the roster the last semester of the scholarship/eligibility window. 

Sounds right. The hard work learned from wrestling is what makes many wrestlers even capable of graduating college. I know it did for me. So in a way the "scholarly"ship has already happened and is sailing. Nothing wrong with a solid community college or trades school either to keep those silly student loans from haunting you forever. 

[ILUV2PIN]

I've always been about doing what the best do.... ya know, that kind of thing. We are not the best.... 

 

[ReformedPoster]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:04 PM, aoberlin said:

Not sure that is a good argument. The good wrestlers may stay in the small program because those teams would have more success and that wrestler is still going to get his State title. It would just be up to those smaller schools to get into legit tournaments throughout the season. I think St. Paris Graham enjoys where they sit and how they handle it. They have 0 issues getting wrestlers all over the nation to wrestle for them in high school. Part of it is they have won State:  1982, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022.

 

Personally, I would like to see 3 divisions. Small schools, big schools, and recruiting schools. That would be suffice for me.

Define recruiting schools

[aoberlin]

1 hour ago, ReformedPoster said:

Define recruiting schools

Do really have to? 

[CFleshman]

Those with their head in the sand. If you can't see it we can't explain it to you.

[ReformedPoster]

15 hours ago, aoberlin said:

Do really have to? 

If you are going to put them in a separate class, then yes you do.

[MikeTython]

3 hours ago, ReformedPoster said:

If you are going to put them in a separate class, then yes you do.

jus say you gonna recruit and join dat clath

[AnonymousLeprechaun0125]

On 1/8/2024 at 11:11 AM, Thor said:

At this point, small schools aren't even playing the same sport as the big schools. South Adams has to balance putting the work in for wrestling while having nearly every single member of our roster playing three sports, all while wrestling in the cafeteria. Next year we might not have a heavy weight because there's only 3-4 kids in the entire school that I could identify as even being the right weight, not even getting to those kids already playing basketball, or not wanting to wrestle. Brownsburg has a million dollar facility filled with year round wrestlers and all the resources they need, in an area surrounded by other talented big school wrestling programs and big city clubs and about 1000 kids to recruit in the school. But sure, we can just outwork them. 

 

I would love to see South Adams have a state champ at some point in my life, but that is going to be highly unlikely with the current state of wrestling in Indiana. Last year, the state finals looked like a Crown Point-Brownsburg-Center Grove dual meet, and that isn't changing any time soon. Last year the 1A wrestler of the year topped out at 5th place, couldn't even get one 1A wrestler in the semis. 

While I don’t understand the feeling, I understand your point. Club wrestling is a great equalizer as is year round wrestling. If your kids can’t wrestle year round or attend a local club with the best kids in the area they are never going to be as good as you can be. 
 

I’m not exactly sure my point, but if we do a class tournament and then combine classes for a single champion the end results will be the same at the end of the day. Just with a showcase of class by class talent. 

[AnonymousLeprechaun0125]

On 1/8/2024 at 9:44 AM, Galagore said:

We really need to think about putting forward a proposal for classing the individual sport in time for the ladies to be sanctioned. You can already sense at the meets that if the smaller schools have a chance to get a qualifier or two, that will really help boost their programs. If we open fully sanctioned and single-class, the small school programs may be over before they start. Right now, a good, hard working female athlete could set a reasonable goal of qualifying for the state finals in a 2 class ladies tournament. Her qualifying signals to other non-basketball athletes that maybe they should give it a shot. Them qualifying and the first girl medaling makes them all think, "Gee, if we got to a camp and recruited some more girls..." and thus the programs start to build. If we go right in single class, then the same schools will do the same things and in ten years we will all be sitting here wondering what we need to do to get ladies interested in wrestling like they were in 2024.

Where would this go? I write proposals all day for work, I would love to spearhead this.

[GrecoSupreme]

It sure does NOT help athletes reach the tall task of obtaining a state title or even becoming a qualifier when you have the IHSAA “mixing things up” like a game. What are you doing? 
 

A young man from Rochester battles to the top for a HWT state title a few years ago, the school wins a semi-state, and now has to travel to take on titans & big dogs in Merrillville, Crown Point, Penn, Mishawaka, Chesterton, etc. 

 

I may be off my rocker, but explain to me how this “grows the sport” and “creates opportunities” for kids? This is not just in wrestling either.