Class Wrestling Question

[blueandgold]

DISCLAIMER: I am not arguing for or against class wrestling, this is just a general question.

 

I am curious as to why the thought of class wrestling is such a controversial topic in Indiana. The concept of “one state champion” is nice, but I don’t think any state with classed wrestling is hurt by the fact they have multiple state champions. In fact, they seem better because of it. I’m not here to provide data, just a firsthand experience in the class wrestling argument.

 

At the 2014 Disney Duals, Perry Meridian was going for their fourth straight national championship in Community Division I that also featured Avon, Brandon, Oregon Clay, and Penn… And all of those teams got beat soundly by Dakota, a junior-senior high school with 400 total students, located in northern Illinois. In Illinois, Dakota competes in class 1A, and they were led by four-time state champion, multiple-time high school All-American, and eventual four-time NCAA Division I tournament qualifier for Northern Iowa Josh Alber (who also beat the state’s four-time 3A champion in Jered Cortez in the finals of the Dvorak that season). That Dakota team was also nationally-ranked for the previous two seasons and was one of many Illinois teams nationally-ranked along with juggernauts Oak Park and River Forest High School and Carl Sandburg High School, and all three, along with many others, featured many Division I wrestlers and All-Americans.
 

The point I’m making is that multiple classes in Illinois didn’t make the in-state competition weaker overall, in fact, they got better and outperformed everyone nationally and remain relevant to the national wrestling scene. In addition, Michigan has four divisions, allows teammates to wrestle one another in the postseason, and are consistently better than Indiana, along with Illinois, Minnesota, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.
 

So, I must ask, what is the big debacle about class wrestling?

[M109R]

Edited January 7 by M109R

[Cameron10483]

[blueandgold]

4 minutes ago, Cameron10483 said:

Honestly, though. I just am curious as to why it’s so negatively viewed and would hope to get answers beyond, “I don’t like it (for my kids).” Parents living vicariously through their children and being upset about a potential concept of a tournament they don’t even compete in has always been crazy to me.

[casualwrestlingfan]

We need both. Classed individual tournament followed by the single class individual tournament to end the season. Need the IHSAA's help to do that, so doubt it happens in my life.

[CoachM]

I’d say it has to do with both the Ihsaa and their policy of only the champion matters and a large percentage of the population who can’t handle change, even when it’s for the better. People in Indiana love their back when I was growing up start to a conversation 

[M109R]

3 hours ago, blueandgold said:

DISCLAIMER: I am not arguing for or against class wrestling, this is just a general question.

 

I am curious as to why the thought of class wrestling is such a controversial topic in Indiana. The concept of “one state champion” is nice, but I don’t think any state with classed wrestling is hurt by the fact they have multiple state champions. In fact, they seem better because of it. I’m not here to provide data, just a firsthand experience in the class wrestling argument.

 

At the 2014 Disney Duals, Perry Meridian was going for their fourth straight national championship in Community Division I that also featured Avon, Brandon, Oregon Clay, and Penn… And all of those teams got beat soundly by Dakota, a junior-senior high school with 400 total students, located in northern Illinois. In Illinois, Dakota competes in class 1A, and they were led by four-time state champion, multiple-time high school All-American, and eventual four-time NCAA Division I tournament qualifier for Northern Iowa Josh Alber (who also beat the state’s four-time 3A champion in Jered Cortez in the finals of the Dvorak that season). That Dakota team was also nationally-ranked for the previous two seasons and was one of many Illinois teams nationally-ranked along with juggernauts Oak Park and River Forest High School and Carl Sandburg High School, and all three, along with many others, featured many Division I wrestlers and All-Americans.
 

The point I’m making is that multiple classes in Illinois didn’t make the in-state competition weaker overall, in fact, they got better and outperformed everyone nationally and remain relevant to the national wrestling scene. In addition, Michigan has four divisions, allows teammates to wrestle one another in the postseason, and are consistently better than Indiana, along with Illinois, Minnesota, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.
 

So, I must ask, what is the big debacle about class wrestling?

Indiana has what 400 high schools ? Those states you mentioned have 3 times that number . Of coarse they are going to be better, especially from a depth standpoint . Give me the stats where Basketball reached unprecedented heights after going to classes . I can remember that a single class basketball state championship game had to be played at the Hoosier Dome with 41,000 in attendance. Do you see that today ?

[Y2CJ41]

49 minutes ago, M109R said:

Indiana has what 400 high schools ? Those states you mentioned have 3 times that number . Of coarse they are going to be better, especially from a depth standpoint . Give me the stats where Basketball reached unprecedented heights after going to classes . I can remember that a single class basketball state championship game had to be played at the Hoosier Dome with 41,000 in attendance. Do you see that today ?

Indiana has about 315 schools with wrestling.

California is the only one that you could say has 3x the schools with wrestling. Ohio has just over 500 and Michigan has around 450 schools with wrestling.

 

Your basketball analogy fails to recognize the massive attendance drop off after Damon Bailey graduated.

 

But we won't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[blueandgold]

3 hours ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

We need both. Classed individual tournament followed by the single class individual tournament to end the season. Need the IHSAA's help to do that, so doubt it happens in my life.

I wouldn’t be opposed to this. Massachusetts has a divisional state championship followed by an overall state championship that qualifies them for a larger New England championship that features many private schools who’ve sent wrestlers on to the Division I level.

[blueandgold]

2 hours ago, M109R said:

Indiana has what 400 high schools ? Those states you mentioned have 3 times that number . Of coarse they are going to be better, especially from a depth standpoint . Give me the stats where Basketball reached unprecedented heights after going to classes . I can remember that a single class basketball state championship game had to be played at the Hoosier Dome with 41,000 in attendance. Do you see that today ?

I am glad you got to experience that era of basketball in Indiana, but the thing about the old days is they’re the old days. Basketball in Indiana hasn’t been hurt in any way from it being classed; players are still getting plenty of offers to play at the next level and a handful are still going to the NBA, and most of that isn’t even determined by your performance in your state’s association anymore as AAU has been the new wave. But since you used a team sport like basketball as an example, why not make football single class? It would do more for attendance right when an entire small town goes up against Ben Davis, right? Again, not arguing for or against, but using attendance figures for a basketball championship in a single year isn’t a good example because attendance is still doing well on all levels at the state finals for Indiana basketball.

Edited January 8 by blueandgold

[M109R]

5 hours ago, blueandgold said:

I am glad you got to experience that era of basketball in Indiana, but the thing about the old days is they’re the old days. Basketball in Indiana hasn’t been hurt in any way from it being classed; players are still getting plenty of offers to play at the next level and a handful are still going to the NBA, and most of that isn’t even determined by your performance in your state’s association anymore as AAU has been the new wave. But since you used a team sport like basketball as an example, why not make football single class? It would do more for attendance right when an entire small town goes up against Ben Davis, right? Again, not arguing for or against, but using attendance figures for a basketball championship in a single year isn’t a good example because attendance is still doing well on all levels at the state finals for Indiana basketball.

Sounds to me like you’re arguing for class wrestling. I’m all for change if it indeed will make something better, increase participation or grow the sport. I question whether it will all while ruining our state finals. Try and find a parent who’s child wrestled in a class state then Indiana. Ask them what they think . 

[M109R]

7 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Indiana has about 315 schools with wrestling.

California is the only one that you could say has 3x the schools with wrestling. Ohio has just over 500 and Michigan has around 450 schools with wrestling.

 

Your basketball analogy fails to recognize the massive attendance drop off after Damon Bailey graduated.

 

But we won't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

State championships were held at the Hoosier Dome and then RCA dome. There was a reason for this, not just Damon Bailey. 

[Y2CJ41]

25 minutes ago, M109R said:

State championships were held at the Hoosier Dome and then RCA dome. There was a reason for this, not just Damon Bailey. 

The attendance spiked in 1990 and was falling rapidly after that. 

[Galagore]

Regardless of what it does to attendance, I sure hope no one ever makes a decision for children's activities based on what the fans want to see.

 

That being said, why don't people hold the same fondness for ticket round matches with no wrestle-backs? It is way more exciting to watch a single-elimination 16-wrestler bracket determine who goes to state than allowing first round losers to wrestle all the way back to qualify for a spot.

Edited January 8 by Galagore

[M109R]

Wrestling is an individual sport , the size of the school you attend does not matter unless you are talking about Team State Championships . We already have a classed Team State put on by the Coaches Association . Kids that are in contention for Individual state titles have been wrestling since grade school or before . They are an accomplished wrestler long before entering any high school .They are going to succeed at any high school whether 1A or 4A. 

[TripleB]

Ticket Round matches are the best; First Rd Regionals, Quarters of SS....... give me more, give me more. 

 

28 finalists, One State Championship match per weight under the LIGHTS!!!

 

I'm drowning in awesomeness. 

 

Forget that other post w/ all the nonsense cultural pot-stirring. 

 

I want single class wrestling!!!

 

#ClassWrestlingKills

#QuoteTheAncientElder 

 

[Galagore]

18 minutes ago, M109R said:

Wrestling is an individual sport , the size of the school you attend does not matter unless you are talking about Team State Championships . We already have a classed Team State put on by the Coaches Association . Kids that are in contention for Individual state titles have been wrestling since grade school or before . They are an accomplished wrestler long before entering any high school .They are going to succeed at any high school whether 1A or 4A. 

 

So you would contend that someone from Penn and someone from Culver Community has an equal probability of making the state finals?

[SunDevils]

12 hours ago, M109R said:

Indiana has what 400 high schools ? Those states you mentioned have 3 times that number . Of coarse they are going to be better, especially from a depth standpoint . Give me the stats where Basketball reached unprecedented heights after going to classes . I can remember that a single class basketball state championship game had to be played at the Hoosier Dome with 41,000 in attendance. Do you see that today ?

 

Attendance notwithstanding hard to argue that classed basketball hasn't produced stellar basketball talent from Indiana: the Plumlee's, the Zeller's, the Teague's, Etwaun Moore, Juan Johnson, Gordon Heyward, Eric Gordon, Greg Oden, Mike Conley Jr, George Hill, Courtney Lee, Desmond Bane, Trey Lyles, Gary Harris, Yogi, and so on. All of which made it to major college basketball or the NBA at some point. The success of Indiana High School wrestling has not mirrored that of high school basketball.

 

There are multiple reasons for that - not the least of which is the physicality and mental toughness required to compete in wrestling versus basketball.  Additionally, culture, Indiana is a basketball state. From the movie Hoosiers, to the demi-god status of Bob Knight, and successful D1 programs in Purdue, IU, Notre Dame, and Butler.

[Y2CJ41]

23 minutes ago, M109R said:

Wrestling is an individual sport , the size of the school you attend does not matter unless you are talking about Team State Championships . We already have a classed Team State put on by the Coaches Association . Kids that are in contention for Individual state titles have been wrestling since grade school or before . They are an accomplished wrestler long before entering any high school .They are going to succeed at any high school whether 1A or 4A. 

Then it is just a coincidence that less than 10% of the state qualifiers come from the smallest 100ish schools? They just don't work hard enough I guess.

 

Let's see, I'm guessing the next statement will include the two words "Mater Dei" in it.

[julio]

Recruiting

 

[julio]

Transfers

[julio]

Open Enrollment

[julio]

Better Acadmics

[julio]

How many more do you want me to list?

[Galagore]

Just now, julio said:

How many more do you want me to list?

 

Sorry, I am a little slow...what does that list represent?