Class Wrestling Question

[SIACfan]

I know that the IHSAA is not going to change because they view wrestling as an individual sport. But there is a simple solution.

 

4 Classes. Run the tournament just as it is today for each class except eliminate the SS step - Sectionals, Regionals, State. Then on the 4th weekend, when the State Championships are run now, have a Tournament of Champions. Bring the top 4 finishers from each class. Same amount of time to reach the conclusion of the season. It shouldn't take any more facilities either. There will simply be more travel at the sectional & regional level.

 

Now we can move on to the wrestle-back debate!

 

[MattM]

1 hour ago, SIACfan said:

Then on the 4th weekend, when the State Championships are run now, have a Tournament of Champions.

Id go with that being the IHSAA Team State Finals over a ToC if that is the calendar progression. 

[SIACfan]

1 hour ago, MattM said:

Id go with that being the IHSAA Team State Finals over a ToC if that is the calendar progression. 

 

Why?

 

Team Champions would be crowned through the classed tournaments. The small schools would have their fair shot at a Team Championship.

 

Plus the IHSWCA could still hold their Team State Duals.

Edited January 14 by SIACfan

[ghughes1974]

Anyone who believes Indiana wrestling isn’t classed, I disagree with you.  Wrestling is classed all year.  Small school programs generally have few opportunities to wrestle the large schools…maybe their JV team.  Large schools typically don’t schedule dual meets with small school teams…why would they?  Most of the time, it wouldn’t be competitive.  Also, school conferences are typically set up among schools of similar size.  Wrestling is classed all season.  It’s just the IHSAA state tournament at the end of the year that suddenly isn’t classed. 

 

 

I've coached at a small school for nine seasons now.  Having to face off against huge school programs in sectionals absolutely hurts our participation.  I coach two types of kids.  "True wrestlers" and "guys who wrestle."   True wrestlers, they love it and are committed no matter what.  But "guys who wrestler", newer/developing wrestlers, when they see the better guys on their team who have been competitive all year get smashed, many of them wash out or check out.  They just chose to focus on other sports...guess what, they pick ones that have a classed state tournament, where their small school typically does well and gets a lot of attention.  

 

When the "guys who wrestle" start to wash out, then your "true wrestlers" have fewer and fewer training partners...it doesn't matter how hard they work.  When they have no one to wrestle that can push them or no one to wrestle at all, you're not going to be competitive against wrestlers from large schools that don't face this problem. There's always rare exceptions, amazing kids, but this is the general result for small schools that are grouped with large schools at the sectional and regional level.

 

It's a fact, large schools more consistently produce elite wrestlers than small schools.  There’s a number of factors, but the single greatest factor is rooted in the nature of wrestling. Wrestling is the only sport where you compete as an individual, but the training and development aspect of the sport is 100% a TEAM activity (you cannot train alone).  Large schools with large rooms full of talented wrestlers can train at an “academy level” within their own program.  This is a significant advantage and allows large schools to more consistently produce elite wrestlers.  
 

 

[ghughes1974]

Indiana has an opportunity to grow wrestling, especially at small schools.  If we want Indiana wrestling to be at its “best”, we should be pushing strategies to grow the sport.  I define better as creating more kids embracing the ideals and life lessons of wrestling. 

 

But even if we define “better” as being more competitive against other states or when our elite guys succeed at the college level, then let’s recognize that elite wrestlers at any level; most of them come from “wrestling families”.  Wrestling families are created from there being someone within a family that got a lot out of the sport and cares deeply about wrestling.  Let’s call this person a “wrestling mentor”. 

 

Wrestling mentors stay involved in the sport and contribute to it throughout their life.  Wrestling mentors end up coaching.  Wrestling mentors are dads that get their kids wrestling at an early age and take their kids (and other kids) all over the place to wrestle.  Wrestling mentors run youth clubs.  Wrestling mentors start academies.  Wrestling mentors may officiate.  Most wrestling mentors had some success at the sport when they wrestled.  This could be achieving big goals or at least achieving smaller personal goals.  But either way, they came out of it feeling they were good at wrestling and valuing it.  All you reading this post, does that sound like you? 

 

So how do we make Indiana wrestling better?  Create more wrestling families and wrestling mentors.  You can accomplish this by keeping more kids in the sport.  Part of what’s fun about wrestling is getting caught up in and chasing goals.  Give more kids who are wrestling a better opportunity to succeed at some level.  Success is fun!  Even if you fail, believing you can achieve a goal and pushing yourself going after it, that's fun.  A classed state tournament gives this experience to more wrestlers.  Give it 10 years and watch how many more “wrestling mentors” we create.

 

But it won't happen until our wrestling coaches start uniformly asking for it…and we need to push the IHSAA to embrace it.  My understanding is the IHSAA will consider changes if the sport’s coaches association is 80% in agreement on it.  So when the IHSWCA sends out that survey about class wrestling, vote for it.  You’re simply voting for a strategy to grow the sport by deliberately trying to increase the number of “wrestling mentors” are out there.  Think of how much fun it would be to coach when you have more incoming freshman who have already wrestled for 3-4 years.      

 

Look at Iowa, half our population and three classes!  Wrestling is great in Iowa because their participation level is significantly higher than the norm.  If we want to be at our best, seems to make sense to do what the best do.  

[MattM]

4 hours ago, SIACfan said:

 

Why?

 

Team Champions would be crowned through the classed tournaments. The small schools would have their fair shot at a Team Championship.

 

Plus the IHSWCA could still hold their Team State Duals.

As in an IHSAA sponsored Team “Dual” State Finals for that 4th week. . 

[GrecoSupreme]

Wrestle-backs at semi-state?  

[SIACfan]

17 hours ago, ghughes1974 said:

Anyone who believes Indiana wrestling isn’t classed, I disagree with you.  Wrestling is classed all year.  Small school programs generally have few opportunities to wrestle the large schools…maybe their JV team.  Large schools typically don’t schedule dual meets with small school teams…why would they?  Most of the time, it wouldn’t be competitive.  Also, school conferences are typically set up among schools of similar size.  Wrestling is classed all season.  It’s just the IHSAA state tournament at the end of the year that suddenly isn’t classed. 

 

 

I've coached at a small school for nine seasons now.  Having to face off against huge school programs in sectionals absolutely hurts our participation.  I coach two types of kids.  "True wrestlers" and "guys who wrestle."   True wrestlers, they love it and are committed no matter what.  But "guys who wrestler", newer/developing wrestlers, when they see the better guys on their team who have been competitive all year get smashed, many of them wash out or check out.  They just chose to focus on other sports...guess what, they pick ones that have a classed state tournament, where their small school typically does well and gets a lot of attention.  

 

When the "guys who wrestle" start to wash out, then your "true wrestlers" have fewer and fewer training partners...it doesn't matter how hard they work.  When they have no one to wrestle that can push them or no one to wrestle at all, you're not going to be competitive against wrestlers from large schools that don't face this problem. There's always rare exceptions, amazing kids, but this is the general result for small schools that are grouped with large schools at the sectional and regional level.

 

It's a fact, large schools more consistently produce elite wrestlers than small schools.  There’s a number of factors, but the single greatest factor is rooted in the nature of wrestling. Wrestling is the only sport where you compete as an individual, but the training and development aspect of the sport is 100% a TEAM activity (you cannot train alone).  Large schools with large rooms full of talented wrestlers can train at an “academy level” within their own program.  This is a significant advantage and allows large schools to more consistently produce elite wrestlers.  
 

 

 

Very nice & well presented reasoning supporting the need for class wrestling. For the most part I agree with what you have said. But these are teams issues not individual issues, and I have repeatedly admitted that small school teams are clearly at a big disadvantage.

 

But I don't agree about the greatest factor of why large schools more consistently produce elite wrestlers. The greatest factor is that they have a larger population to draw from. When simply broken into 2 cases - large & small, the large schools comprise 78% of the student enrollment throughout the state. It then makes sense that 78% of the elite wrestlers should come from that enrollment. And that is exactly what we have seen in the percentage of State Qualifiers.

 

It is true that large school individuals are going to have more/better in season training partners, but as even you eluded to in your second post the true wrestlers are training & wrestling outside of the HS season. And it is this year round commitment that is developing them into State quality wrestlers. The in-season training partners are a factor, but they are not the huge advantage from an individual standpoint that many small school coaches make it out to be. And the numbers bear this out.

 

Again, small school teams are at a huge disadvantage - small school individuals are not. And the percentage of small school individuals having success bears this out. It is just very hard for small school coaches & fans to accept because the percentage is so lopsided.

[blueandgold]

If the IHSAA wants to take a first step in the right direction, they’ll eliminate semi-state. Semi-State works for team sports because it directly mimics the NCAA Final Four, but as far as individual wrestling itself, it needs to go. The other individual sports in Indiana only have three levels: Swimming (Sectionals, Sectional Finals, State Finals) and Track & Field (Sectionals, Regionals, State). Wrestling needs to follow suit and then build from there.

[SIACfan]

16 hours ago, ghughes1974 said:

Indiana has an opportunity to grow wrestling, especially at small schools.  If we want Indiana wrestling to be at its “best”, we should be pushing strategies to grow the sport.  I define better as creating more kids embracing the ideals and life lessons of wrestling. 

 

But even if we define “better” as being more competitive against other states or when our elite guys succeed at the college level, then let’s recognize that elite wrestlers at any level; most of them come from “wrestling families”.  Wrestling families are created from there being someone within a family that got a lot out of the sport and cares deeply about wrestling.  Let’s call this person a “wrestling mentor”. 

 

Wrestling mentors stay involved in the sport and contribute to it throughout their life.  Wrestling mentors end up coaching.  Wrestling mentors are dads that get their kids wrestling at an early age and take their kids (and other kids) all over the place to wrestle.  Wrestling mentors run youth clubs.  Wrestling mentors start academies.  Wrestling mentors may officiate.  Most wrestling mentors had some success at the sport when they wrestled.  This could be achieving big goals or at least achieving smaller personal goals.  But either way, they came out of it feeling they were good at wrestling and valuing it.  All you reading this post, does that sound like you? 

 

So how do we make Indiana wrestling better?  Create more wrestling families and wrestling mentors.  You can accomplish this by keeping more kids in the sport.  Part of what’s fun about wrestling is getting caught up in and chasing goals.  Give more kids who are wrestling a better opportunity to succeed at some level.  Success is fun!  Even if you fail, believing you can achieve a goal and pushing yourself going after it, that's fun.  A classed state tournament gives this experience to more wrestlers.  Give it 10 years and watch how many more “wrestling mentors” we create.

 

But it won't happen until our wrestling coaches start uniformly asking for it…and we need to push the IHSAA to embrace it.  My understanding is the IHSAA will consider changes if the sport’s coaches association is 80% in agreement on it.  So when the IHSWCA sends out that survey about class wrestling, vote for it.  You’re simply voting for a strategy to grow the sport by deliberately trying to increase the number of “wrestling mentors” are out there.  Think of how much fun it would be to coach when you have more incoming freshman who have already wrestled for 3-4 years.      

 

Look at Iowa, half our population and three classes!  Wrestling is great in Iowa because their participation level is significantly higher than the norm.  If we want to be at our best, seems to make sense to do what the best do.  

 

All of this I can agree with, at least in theory.

 

I'm not as sure as you that the result would be as good as you make it out, but it is possible. But it is also possible that there would simply be a handful of small schools that dominate. But at least there would be 3 to 4 sets of schools that dominate & the ones chasing them would have a better chance of catching up. But again this is a team thing not an individual thing.

 

Iowa is a nice example, but as Y2 would say... They are such an extreme outlier that they totally skew the data.

[Thor]

32 minutes ago, SIACfan said:

 

Very nice & well presented reasoning supporting the need for class wrestling. For the most part I agree with what you have said. But these are teams issues not individual issues, and I have repeatedly admitted that small school teams are clearly at a big disadvantage.

 

But I don't agree about the greatest factor of why large schools more consistently produce elite wrestlers. The greatest factor is that they have a larger population to draw from. When simply broken into 2 cases - large & small, the large schools comprise 78% of the student enrollment throughout the state. It then makes sense that 78% of the elite wrestlers should come from that enrollment. And that is exactly what we have seen in the percentage of State Qualifiers.

 

It is true that large school individuals are going to have more/better in season training partners, but as even you eluded to in your second post the true wrestlers are training & wrestling outside of the HS season. And it is this year round commitment that is developing them into State quality wrestlers. The in-season training partners are a factor, but they are not the huge advantage from an individual standpoint that many small school coaches make it out to be. And the numbers bear this out.

 

Again, small school teams are at a huge disadvantage - small school individuals are not. And the percentage of small school individuals having success bears this out. It is just very hard for small school coaches & fans to accept because the percentage is so lopsided.

Wtf are you still going on about this is a team issue not an individual issue. You have agreed with most arguments that there are large discrepancies between large and small school teams that don't affect the small school individual, well the hell it doesn't. Every single issue you have countered with "it's a team issue, not an individual issue". That is so bogus, and disingenuous to the discussion at hand. I have read your arguments, but still do not understand your point. Because whatever you are trying to get at does not affect the discussion we are having. 

[ghughes1974]

I think the larger population is absolutely a factor that helps large schools dominate.  The reason I think the training partner issue is an even bigger factor comes from my experience as a youth coach.  I have three sons and they all wrestled at elementary age level.  I coached several ISWA club teams before I started coaching HS.  I coached a number of kids back in the day that ended up at large schools in HS.  I've seen many of those kids consistently outpace the small school kids who may have been just as good or better when they were younger.  

 

Second experience that makes me think the "room" is the greatest factor is that when I was in HS, I was on a team that was second in state in the 2A (large school) division in Illinois.  I am a first generation wrestler and I got real good real quick in that environment.  I had good coaches, but I learned just as much from them as I did from battling day in and day out with the other beasts on the team.  When I started coaching in Indiana, I knew the room would be important, but I completely underestimated how important.  There's moves and techniques, counters to counters and third/fourth moves in a series, that you can't even coach if your training partners can barely figure out move 1 or 2.  

 

Last argument, look at the success of the wrestling academies in Indiana.  One of the core principles of those places is, put a bunch of studs in the same room and watch iron sharpen iron.  

 

I totally agree that population size is a factor.  My experiences make me believe training partner differences is the greatest factor that gives large schools a huge advantage over small schools.