Class Wrestling Question

[aoberlin]

My opinion remains the same. With the depth of talent Indiana now has we need to find more opportunities for these kids to make it to State. For themselves and for the schools that work hard. If we can’t ever get wrestlebacks and/or more State qualifiers then we need to start looking at classing the State. Times have changed and so have our wrestlers. It’s time to do what is right by them. 

[casualwrestlingfan]

13 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

My opinion remains the same. With the depth of talent Indiana now has we need to find more opportunities for these kids to make it to State. For themselves and for the schools that work hard. If we can’t ever get wrestlebacks and/or more State qualifiers then we need to start looking at classing the State. Times have changed and so have our wrestlers. It’s time to do what is right by them. 

I think we will grow the sport at smaller schools by adding a classed individual tournament in addition to the single class individual tournament. No reason we can't have both it the IHSAA cooperates in the scheduling system. I'm sure 3A & 4A schools would hate it, but too bad. I'm going to throw out random schools with no affiliation in this example: Union (Modoc), Blackhawk Christian, Bethany Christian, Crothersville, and etc could have those 1 or 2 boys & girls that like the sport & compete. Then they can grow it by being the examples.

[M109R]

31 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Then it is just a coincidence that less than 10% of the state qualifiers come from the smallest 100ish schools? They just don't work hard enough I guess.

 

Let's see, I'm guessing the next statement will include the two words "Mater Dei" in it.

Big reason for that 10% . If you are indeed a stud at a 1A or 2A school , you have probably transferred before high school to one of the many all star teams around the state . Didn't I just read Clinton Shepard used to be in the Rochester area ?

[Galagore]

We really need to think about putting forward a proposal for classing the individual sport in time for the ladies to be sanctioned. You can already sense at the meets that if the smaller schools have a chance to get a qualifier or two, that will really help boost their programs. If we open fully sanctioned and single-class, the small school programs may be over before they start. Right now, a good, hard working female athlete could set a reasonable goal of qualifying for the state finals in a 2 class ladies tournament. Her qualifying signals to other non-basketball athletes that maybe they should give it a shot. Them qualifying and the first girl medaling makes them all think, "Gee, if we got to a camp and recruited some more girls..." and thus the programs start to build. If we go right in single class, then the same schools will do the same things and in ten years we will all be sitting here wondering what we need to do to get ladies interested in wrestling like they were in 2024.

[blueandgold]

4 hours ago, M109R said:

Sounds to me like you’re arguing for class wrestling. I’m all for change if it indeed will make something better, increase participation or grow the sport. I question whether it will all while ruining our state finals. Try and find a parent who’s child wrestled in a class state then Indiana. Ask them what they think . 

I’m not arguing either way as I am no longer in high school and I‘ve also already competed in the state finals for a 4A school. Classed wrestling wouldn’t have changed outcomes for me in any way, so it truly doesn’t affect me what decision is made. However, I am just infinitely curious as to why or how classing wrestling would be hurtful, yet no one can give a valid reason beyond their personal preference and what they think wrestling should be which only reads as, “I don’t like change.”

[blueandgold]

4 minutes ago, M109R said:

Big reason for that 10% . If you are indeed a stud at a 1A or 2A school , you have probably transferred before high school to one of the many all star teams around the state . Didn't I just read Clinton Shepard used to be in the Rochester area ?

So, wouldn’t this exact statement be an indicator that there needs to be classing in order to create parity amongst smaller teams, especially those of which who are losing their stars to powerhouses? Small school athletes are like the small town workers who wear many hats, and the more they get swallowed up by their nearby big city neighbors, the more like they’ll cease to exist.

[Silence Dogood]

Indianamat just celebrated its 15th anniversary.

 

I wonder how many people's minds have been changed over the course of those 15 years through this recurring debate on class wrestling. I don't have any statistics, but I have a guess. 

 

 

[M109R]

52 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

So you would contend that someone from Penn and someone from Culver Community has an equal probability of making the state finals?

No , because CC is not known as having a top tier wrestling program . Why don't you compare Penn to Bellmont ? In which case they have more state champions and or placers and are much smaller . 

[Y2CJ41]

16 minutes ago, M109R said:

Big reason for that 10% . If you are indeed a stud at a 1A or 2A school , you have probably transferred before high school to one of the many all star teams around the state . Didn't I just read Clinton Shepard used to be in the Rochester area ?

So why would he transfer? Why not just work hard and be a stud? That seems odd that if you work hard you'll be a champ no matter the school you come from.

[blueandgold]

1 hour ago, M109R said:

Wrestling is an individual sport , the size of the school you attend does not matter unless you are talking about Team State Championships . We already have a classed Team State put on by the Coaches Association . Kids that are in contention for Individual state titles have been wrestling since grade school or before . They are an accomplished wrestler long before entering any high school .They are going to succeed at any high school whether 1A or 4A. 

Another bad example. Tell that to Illinois or Pennsylvania. If it’s all about hard work then all the nationally-ranked 1A and 2A IL wrestlers should make 3A. Same with PA, too. All the hard working AA wrestlers should make AAA and totally eliminate the showcase of their depth just so there is one state champion for parents’ and fans’ personal preferences. No. We’re gloating about having one state champion when the IL 1A sixth-place finisher or PA AA eighth-place finisher would beat our podium from champion to eighth place on most occasions. And before you mention a state like California or New Jersey being single class, they have twice or almost three times as many qualifiers for their tournaments.

[M109R]

7 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

So, wouldn’t this exact statement be an indicator that there needs to be classing in order to create parity amongst smaller teams, especially those of which who are losing their stars to powerhouses? Small school athletes are like the small town workers who wear many hats, and the more they get swallowed up by their nearby big city neighbors, the more like they’ll cease to exist.

Why , that stud that transfers would win titles at his original school too . There are many reasons why wrestlers transfer . So you would rather he stays in 1 A and tech falls his way to 4 consecutive state titles ? 

[blueandgold]

1 minute ago, M109R said:

Why , that stud that transfers would win titles at his original school too . There are many reasons why wrestlers transfer . So you would rather he stays in 1 A and tech falls his way to 4 consecutive state titles ? 

So, if he would win at his 1A school regardless, why didn’t he stay there?

[M109R]

3 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So why would he transfer? Why not just work hard and be a stud? That seems odd that if you work hard you'll be a champ no matter the school you come from.

There are kids winning state titles when in the 8th grade in states that allow it . So tell me how the high school he hasn't attended yet helped him win that state title ?

[Y2CJ41]

9 minutes ago, M109R said:

There are kids winning state titles when in the 8th grade in states that allow it . So tell me how the high school he hasn't attended yet helped him win that state title ?

Kids that are winning state titles in 8th grade ARE attending their high schools and practicing with those high school teams. 

 

You sure seem to have an issue with reality and facts. 

[Galagore]

10 minutes ago, M109R said:

No , because CC is not known as having a top tier wrestling program . Why don't you compare Penn to Bellmont ? In which case they have more state champions and or placers and are much smaller . 

 

A. You know nothing of our wrestling program, what we do, or who we have had come through. If my statement proves incorrect, expect an apology for the error.

B. More appropriate to compare Bellmont (enrollment 641) to Culver Community (enrollment 255). Or perhaps a school like Knox (enrollment 553) compared with Culver Community. Students from each school have an equal probability of reaching the state finals from your perspective? If you had to put your chip on one school or the other, it would be a complete toss-up for you?

[Thor]

2 hours ago, M109R said:

Wrestling is an individual sport , the size of the school you attend does not matter unless you are talking about Team State Championships . We already have a classed Team State put on by the Coaches Association . Kids that are in contention for Individual state titles have been wrestling since grade school or before . They are an accomplished wrestler long before entering any high school .They are going to succeed at any high school whether 1A or 4A. 

At this point, small schools aren't even playing the same sport as the big schools. South Adams has to balance putting the work in for wrestling while having nearly every single member of our roster playing three sports, all while wrestling in the cafeteria. Next year we might not have a heavy weight because there's only 3-4 kids in the entire school that I could identify as even being the right weight, not even getting to those kids already playing basketball, or not wanting to wrestle. Brownsburg has a million dollar facility filled with year round wrestlers and all the resources they need, in an area surrounded by other talented big school wrestling programs and big city clubs and about 1000 kids to recruit in the school. But sure, we can just outwork them. 

 

I would love to see South Adams have a state champ at some point in my life, but that is going to be highly unlikely with the current state of wrestling in Indiana. Last year, the state finals looked like a Crown Point-Brownsburg-Center Grove dual meet, and that isn't changing any time soon. Last year the 1A wrestler of the year topped out at 5th place, couldn't even get one 1A wrestler in the semis. 

[M109R]

57 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Kids that are winning state titles in 8th grade ARE attending their high schools and practicing with those high school teams. 

 

You sure seem to have an issue with reality and facts. 

So kids like Bo Bassett need a high school to be as good as they are? 

 

57 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

A. You know nothing of our wrestling program, what we do, or who we have had come through. If my statement proves incorrect, expect an apology for the error.

B. More appropriate to compare Bellmont (enrollment 641) to Culver Community (enrollment 255). Or perhaps a school like Knox (enrollment 553) compared with Culver Community. Students from each school have an equal probability of reaching the state finals from your perspective? If you had to put your chip on one school or the other, it would be a complete toss-up for you?

 

[Y2CJ41]

2 minutes ago, M109R said:

So kids like Bo Bassett need a high school to be as good as they are? 

 

 

He didn't win a state title as an 8th grader. How many times are you going to keep moving the goalposts?

[Coplen187]

2 hours ago, Galagore said:

 

So you would contend that someone from Penn and someone from Culver Community has an equal probability of making the state finals?

Proportionally, yes.

 

Penn has had 7 finalists in the last 30 years (Juan Grange, Drew Hildebrand (2x), Kobe Woods, Chase Osborn (2x), Zachary Davis (2x), Josh Arnold, & Jamal Aessa.)

 

Culver Community has had 2 (Matt Harford, & Jeremiah Harvey.)

 

For a student body size of 3345 vs 239, I'd say Culver has an even better ratio of students to state wrestling finalists than Penn.

[blueandgold]

12 minutes ago, Thor said:

At this point, small schools aren't even playing the same sport as the big schools. South Adams has to balance putting the work in for wrestling while having nearly every single member of our roster playing three sports, all while wrestling in the cafeteria. Next year we might not have a heavy weight because there's only 3-4 kids in the entire school that I could identify as even being the right weight, not even getting to those kids already playing basketball, or not wanting to wrestle. Brownsburg has a million dollar facility filled with year round wrestlers and all the resources they need, in an area surrounded by other talented big school wrestling programs and big city clubs and about 1000 kids to recruit in the school. But sure, we can just outwork them. 

 

I would love to see South Adams have a state champ at some point in my life, but that is going to be highly unlikely with the current state of wrestling in Indiana. Last year, the state finals looked like a Crown Point-Brownsburg-Center Grove dual meet, and that isn't changing any time soon. Last year the 1A wrestler of the year topped out at 5th place, couldn't even get one 1A wrestler in the semis. 

Small school wrestlers in Indiana are the small town workers who are pivotal to multiple industries but are on the brink of extinction because they keep losing workers to the big cities.

[Galagore]

6 minutes ago, Coplen187 said:

Proportionally, yes.

 

Penn has had 7 finalists in the last 30 years (Juan Grange, Drew Hildebrand (2x), Kobe Woods, Chase Osborn (2x), Zachary Davis (2x), Josh Arnold, & Jamal Aessa.)

 

Culver Community has had 2 (Matt Harford, & Jeremiah Harvey.)

 

For a student body size of 3345 vs 239, I'd say Culver has an even better ratio of students to state wrestling finalists than Penn.

 

Remind me to invite you to our next call-out meeting for this proportionality pitch. It's sure to drive up numbers immediately.

 

However, I do appreciate your attention to our historical success.

[Coplen187]

2 hours ago, M109R said:

Big reason for that 10% . If you are indeed a stud at a 1A or 2A school , you have probably transferred before high school to one of the many all star teams around the state . Didn't I just read Clinton Shepard used to be in the Rochester area ?

West Central I heard.   Rensselaer area.

 

I'm old enough to remember a Rochester wrestler who lost a year of eligibility and a chance to be a 4x qualifier/multiple placer, because he transferred to CMA (one of the best academic schools in the state.)  I'm just glad it isn't that strict anymore. 

[blueandgold]

26 minutes ago, Thor said:

At this point, small schools aren't even playing the same sport as the big schools. South Adams has to balance putting the work in for wrestling while having nearly every single member of our roster playing three sports, all while wrestling in the cafeteria. Next year we might not have a heavy weight because there's only 3-4 kids in the entire school that I could identify as even being the right weight, not even getting to those kids already playing basketball, or not wanting to wrestle. Brownsburg has a million dollar facility filled with year round wrestlers and all the resources they need, in an area surrounded by other talented big school wrestling programs and big city clubs and about 1000 kids to recruit in the school. But sure, we can just outwork them. 

 

I would love to see South Adams have a state champ at some point in my life, but that is going to be highly unlikely with the current state of wrestling in Indiana. Last year, the state finals looked like a Crown Point-Brownsburg-Center Grove dual meet, and that isn't changing any time soon. Last year the 1A wrestler of the year topped out at 5th place, couldn't even get one 1A wrestler in the semis. 

The success of the 1A/2A state championship is proof that the depth is there for Indiana because most of the medalists in that tournament were stopped at the semi-state level or were low IHSAA state medalists, yet were still placing ahead of or beating higher medalists or qualifiers in the ISWA state tournaments which means the talent and capabilities are there, but they’re being swallowed at semi-state by so many big schools in a terrible format. That last statement is for anyone who thinks small school wrestlers aren’t good or are weaker. Also, a reminder that, as far as I know, we are the ONLY state in the U.S. with FOUR stages in a state tournament series for wrestling. California has three (Sectional, Masters, State), Illinois has three (Regional, Sectional, State), Michigan, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania three (District, Regional, State), Minnesota has two (Sectional, State), and Ohio has three (Sectional, District, State). So, it is fair to suggest that most of our wrestlers at the Semi-State level are State caliber athletes. 

[Wrestling Scholar]

2 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

The success of the 1A/2A state championship is proof that the depth is there for Indiana because most of the medalists in that tournament were stopped at the semi-state level or were low IHSAA state medalists, yet were still placing ahead of or beating higher medalists or qualifiers in the ISWA state tournaments which means the talent and capabilities are there, but they’re being swallowed at semi-state by so many big schools in a terrible format. That last statement is for anyone who thinks small school wrestlers aren’t good or are weaker. Also, a reminder that, as far as I know, we are the ONLY state in the U.S. with FOUR stages in a state tournament series for wrestling. California has three (Sectional, Masters, State), Illinois has three (Regional, Sectional, State), Michigan, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania three (District, Regional, State), Minnesota has two (Sectional, State), and Ohio has three (Sectional, District, State). So, it is fair to suggest that most of our wrestlers at the Semi-State level are State caliber athletes. 

Just on a side note on Indiana's four stages.   It does take a while to complete a state tournament IN.   I get it that IHSAA has its traditional format of (sectionals, regionals, semi-state then state which takes four weekends.  But Its redundant, takes a lot weigh-ins for the wrestlers and takes a lot effort, manpower and shortens the regular season.   It would be nice to compress the format and make more efficient,  but never  going to see that happen.

 

Ive seen ideas like combining sectionals and regionals.

[Galagore]

10 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

The success of the 1A/2A state championship is proof that the depth is there for Indiana because most of the medalists in that tournament were stopped at the semi-state level or were low IHSAA state medalists, yet were still placing ahead of or beating higher medalists or qualifiers in the ISWA state tournaments which means the talent and capabilities are there, but they’re being swallowed at semi-state by so many big schools in a terrible format. That last statement is for anyone who thinks small school wrestlers aren’t good or are weaker. Also, a reminder that, as far as I know, we are the ONLY state in the U.S. with FOUR stages in a state tournament series for wrestling. California has three (Sectional, Masters, State), Illinois has three (Regional, Sectional, State), Michigan, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania three (District, Regional, State), Minnesota has two (Sectional, State), and Ohio has three (Sectional, District, State). So, it is fair to suggest that most of our wrestlers at the Semi-State level are State caliber athletes. 

That is a new and outstanding point in favor of class wrestling. Well done.