Another class wrestling question - enter at your own risk

[Galagore]

Has anyone been part of a program at a big school in a big town and a program at a small school in a small town and still think that single class is the best system? That's the next logic I would like to unpack...

[base]

Mr Galagore,

 

Maybe we should do a divide between

• Wrestlers who attend an academy offseason versus those that do not
• Wrestlers who participate in other sports versus those that do not - could potentially have 1-sport, 2-sport and 3-sport classes?
• Wrestlers who have been in the sport 5+ years versus those that have wrestled less than 5 years (or 2 years?)

Each of these would produce some interesting results, and would reward less seasoned wrestlers.  I would say one or more of these might even provide a better recruiting tool than just dividing by school enrollment size.

 

My argument is always this - a small school has many advantages that a large school does not.  Embrace these differences!  There are many offseason opportunities out there for those who are hungry enough to go after them and there are examples (see Best Small School Wrestlers thread) that bear this out.  There are plenty of large schools out there that do not have a successful wrestling program - it's more culture than sheer numbers.  Talk with the small schools that have had success if that is where your heart leads you - find out what their secrets are and then try to duplicate some of those at your own school

[Disco]

4 minutes ago, base said:

Mr Galagore,

 

Maybe we should do a divide between

• Wrestlers who attend an academy offseason versus those that do not
• Wrestlers who participate in other sports versus those that do not - could potentially have 1-sport, 2-sport and 3-sport classes?
• Wrestlers who have been in the sport 5+ years versus those that have wrestled less than 5 years (or 2 years?)

Each of these would produce some interesting results, and would reward less seasoned wrestlers.  I would say one or more of these might even provide a better recruiting tool than just dividing by school enrollment size.

 

My argument is always this - a small school has many advantages that a large school does not.  Embrace these differences!  There are many offseason opportunities out there for those who are hungry enough to go after them and there are examples (see Best Small School Wrestlers thread) that bear this out.  There are plenty of large schools out there that do not have a successful wrestling program - it's more culture than sheer numbers.  Talk with the small schools that have had success if that is where your heart leads you - find out what their secrets are and then try to duplicate some of those at your own school

Some good points. 

[SIACfan]

If the percentage of small school champs & placers closely follows enrollment percentages, does that mean that the single class system is fine?

 

It is similar to if you look at the bare numbers of D1 AA's from different states. California appears really strong while Iowa appears mediocre. But if you look at the number of AA's per capita, suddenly California seems mediocre & Iowa becomes very strong.

[Anthony Snyder]

53 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Has anyone been part of a program at a big school in a big town and a program at a small school in a small town and still think that single class is the best system? That's the next logic I would like to unpack...

 

 

 

Yes, I graduated from a "Big" school (Mishawaka) where wrestling was/is a top sport for that community. We won Team State back when we had an IHSAA Team State, multiple times.

 

I coached there for 2 years and then moved on to a "smaller" school (Jimtown). At Jimtown I had no inclination that anything was different. The same mindset and "Team" aspect was preached everyday. Individual successes came along with the success of the team. So, with the development of the classed team state tournament, it helped gain traction with younger kids at the middle school and elementary level. We went on to upset a forceful Yorktown team in the semi finals to earn a chance at the 2A team state title. Jimtown has been at the IHSWCA just about every year except for maybe 1-2 times, since its inception. Individually we had multiple kids that were contenders for State Titles, Placements.

 

Now, I am the Head Coach at Bremen, a 1A school. This program was in ruins. 3 total kids when my staff and I took over. We now have over 40 club kids, 30+ middle schoolers, and this past season a full varsity lineup that could've done great things in the state series and qualified for a team state berth, had it not been for Quarantine issues. We preach every day about our goals for the program. With Bremen being a smaller school, it is not easy to create a wrestling atmosphere from nothing, but we are and man is it worth it to see the payoff. 

 

Classed Individual State is a no for me. Realignment of Sectional to Regional to Semi-State, I'm down for.

[Cosgrove]

1 class 

[base]

1 minute ago, Antknee said:

Now, I am the Head Coach at Bremen, a 1A school. This program was in ruins. 3 total kids when my staff and I took over. We now have over 40 club kids, 30+ middle schoolers, and this past season a full varsity lineup that could've done great things in the state series and qualified for a team state berth, had it not been for Quarantine issues. We preach every day about our goals for the program. With Bremen being a smaller school, it is not easy to create a wrestling atmosphere from nothing, but we are and man is it worth it to see the payoff. 

 

Great real-life perspective here, thank you.

 

I do have a couple questions - because small schools have a limited number of potential wrestlers (assuming every school has some that are just never going to wrestle).... does the increase in numbers and dedication to wrestling come with an offset to any of the other programs at the school. Does Bremen have other programs that are flourishing or has wrestling become the primary culture among the male athletes in the school?

 

For example, maybe the new wrestlers had been doing offseason weights and conditioning for a successful football program, or maybe they were doing hitting/pitching drills for the baseball program that they no longer do.

 

I think we tend to look at wrestling in a vacuum - without relation to other programs in these schools.  I tend to believe that there is only so many willing bodies and time to go around and that is why I say embrace the qualities of a small school instead of hyperfocusing on just wrestling.  I'd love to know what you have seen at Bremen

[Galagore]

4 minutes ago, Antknee said:

 

 

 

Yes, I graduated from a "Big" school (Mishawaka) where wrestling was/is a top sport for that community. We won Team State back when we had an IHSAA Team State, multiple times.

 

I coached there for 2 years and then moved on to a "smaller" school (Jimtown). At Jimtown I had no inclination that anything was different. The same mindset and "Team" aspect was preached everyday. Individual successes came along with the success of the team. So, with the development of the classed team state tournament, it helped gain traction with younger kids at the middle school and elementary level. We went on to upset a forceful Yorktown team in the semi finals to earn a chance at the 2A team state title. Jimtown has been at the IHSWCA just about every year except for maybe 1-2 times, since its inception. Individually we had multiple kids that were contenders for State Titles, Placements.

 

Now, I am the Head Coach at Bremen, a 1A school. This program was in ruins. 3 total kids when my staff and I took over. We now have over 40 club kids, 30+ middle schoolers, and this past season a full varsity lineup that could've done great things in the state series and qualified for a team state berth, had it not been for Quarantine issues. We preach every day about our goals for the program. With Bremen being a smaller school, it is not easy to create a wrestling atmosphere from nothing, but we are and man is it worth it to see the payoff. 

 

Classed Individual State is a no for me. Realignment of Sectional to Regional to Semi-State, I'm down for.

 

Thank you, coach I very much appreciate the insight. And believe me when I say my soul hurt when I found out you all had to sit out the state series. You guys looked poised for a nice run from what we could tell at our dual.

 

So do you feel that your situations could be reasonable duplicated, regardless of school size? Or do you feel there is/was something specific about the small schools you have been involved with that has led to that possibility?

[Galagore]

Just now, base said:

Great real-life perspective here, thank you.

 

I do have a couple questions - because small schools have a limited number of potential wrestlers (assuming every school has some that are just never going to wrestle).... does the increase in numbers and dedication to wrestling come with an offset to any of the other programs at the school. Does Bremen have other programs that are flourishing or has wrestling become the primary culture among the male athletes in the school?

 

For example, maybe the new wrestlers had been doing offseason weights and conditioning for a successful football program, or maybe they were doing hitting/pitching drills for the baseball program that they no longer do.

 

I think we tend to look at wrestling in a vacuum - without relation to other programs in these schools.  I tend to believe that there is only so many willing bodies and time to go around and that is why I say embrace the qualities of a small school instead of hyperfocusing on just wrestling.  I'd love to know what you have seen at Bremen

 

Just want to say thank you for looking at another perspective. I know you are a one-class supporter, and this type of logic definitely sounds a lot more introspective than most people on either side have been in my years debating this topic.

[Galagore]

57 minutes ago, base said:

Mr Galagore,

 

Maybe we should do a divide between

• Wrestlers who attend an academy offseason versus those that do not
• Wrestlers who participate in other sports versus those that do not - could potentially have 1-sport, 2-sport and 3-sport classes?
• Wrestlers who have been in the sport 5+ years versus those that have wrestled less than 5 years (or 2 years?)

Each of these would produce some interesting results, and would reward less seasoned wrestlers.  I would say one or more of these might even provide a better recruiting tool than just dividing by school enrollment size.

 

My argument is always this - a small school has many advantages that a large school does not.  Embrace these differences!  There are many offseason opportunities out there for those who are hungry enough to go after them and there are examples (see Best Small School Wrestlers thread) that bear this out.  There are plenty of large schools out there that do not have a successful wrestling program - it's more culture than sheer numbers.  Talk with the small schools that have had success if that is where your heart leads you - find out what their secrets are and then try to duplicate some of those at your own school

 

We are talking with small schools in our area all the time. Not only about what they are doing but about how we can work together...rising tide lifts all boats kind of thing. Our school is purchasing two new mats, and we plan to put them to use at as many levels as possible as quickly as we can. We extended our middle school season and (until this weird COVID season) have been steadily increasing our youth numbers over the past few years.

 

Understand, I am not simply concerned about my school, my kids, my program. When we go to invitationals, it is clear that wrestling is down. Way down in smaller schools, and this is my concern. Wrestling participation has grown nationally the last several years, yet in Indiana it is falling. And it is falling most at small schools. This sport is not one that I have always loved the way I do now. As I grew and matured, I came to fully understand and appreciate what this sport has to offer - things that no other sport reasonably accessible to a high school student can offer.

 

Wrestling in Indiana is not going to die from the top down. It is going to die from the bottom up. That scares the heck out of me, and I believe class wrestling is a way to at minimum buy us some time, if not turn things around.

[KoontzDaddy]

My kids grew up at Edgewood in Ellettsville. My oldest son saw success there and I was the youth coach at the time. We were really trying to create a culture at the time and we wanted numbers. We wanted the best athletes to wrestle.

 

My middle son is now at Perry. Obviously they have a strong wrestling culture and it’s a big school.

 

I can say that I would still support class wrestling because I have been that guy trying like crazy to get kids to try wrestling. Big schools not only have more numbers in general but they also tend to be in areas with access to academies and competition which makes them just better at the sport overall. It is much easier to convince a football stud to try wrestling when you can show him that he has a shot to make it deep into the state tournament. I LOVE our state finals, but I believe growing the sport is more important than having the best state finals in the country. But that’s just me.

 

And I’m not saying we should always follow other states, but the powerhouse states, other than Jersey, have classes.

[SIACfan]

The argument of sport growth/decline should be the basis for class wrestling supporters.

 

While I like crowning a single champ in each weight class & have debated the advantage/disadvantage of large verses small school size. I am not against class wrestling, especially if it can show definitive growth of the sport.

[TeamGarcia]

 
@UncleJimmyget back here dude  .... Where you going ? 
 

 

[Anthony Snyder]

1 hour ago, base said:

Great real-life perspective here, thank you.

 

I do have a couple questions - because small schools have a limited number of potential wrestlers (assuming every school has some that are just never going to wrestle).... does the increase in numbers and dedication to wrestling come with an offset to any of the other programs at the school. Does Bremen have other programs that are flourishing or has wrestling become the primary culture among the male athletes in the school?

 

For example, maybe the new wrestlers had been doing offseason weights and conditioning for a successful football program, or maybe they were doing hitting/pitching drills for the baseball program that they no longer do.

 

I think we tend to look at wrestling in a vacuum - without relation to other programs in these schools.  I tend to believe that there is only so many willing bodies and time to go around and that is why I say embrace the qualities of a small school instead of hyperfocusing on just wrestling.  I'd love to know what you have seen at Bremen

 

 

Bremen is predominately Football, Basketball, and Soft Ball. Before I came to Bremen they had a decent wrestling program with not much emphasis on a wrestling off-season. When the former coach stepped down, things crumbled to literally nothing. There are kids that are 3 sport athletes. There are kids that are more focused on one sport than the other. My main focus when I took over was to build a youth program, get the word out that wrestling is available. I was at every home football game, youth football, etc handing out flyers and talking to kids. Myself and my staff do those type of things to this day. I've coached multiple 3 sport athletes. One in particular was an All -State Football player, 2x State Medalist in Wrestling, and a State Qualifier in Track. He dedicated time.

 

Obviously, Pre-Covid, we worked around the other sports during the off-season to dedicate time to wrestling. We preach off-season wrestling all season. We encourage our wrestlers to make time for wrestling. Clearly, not all are going to at once. It is a culture change. That is the biggest thing for me. We had to establish a culture. Something we can rely on as a tool for success. It wasn't done overnight. It has taken the better part of 4 years to do and we are still in the process of getting to where we want to be. This year was a huge step in the right direction. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Galagore said:

 

Thank you, coach I very much appreciate the insight. And believe me when I say my soul hurt when I found out you all had to sit out the state series. You guys looked poised for a nice run from what we could tell at our dual.

 

So do you feel that your situations could be reasonable duplicated, regardless of school size? Or do you feel there is/was something specific about the small schools you have been involved with that has led to that possibility?

 

I appreciate your sentiment. It absolutely sucked.

 

There is something clear as day to me.... Coaches dedication and determination to make their program legit. Wrestling is 1v1 but the team aspect is what creates something special. I know of several coaches around the state that can say they've never seen a Bremen coach at ISWA State, HYWAY State, GRR, etc until we took over. You show time and effort towards the athlete and they'll want to be great for you and the program. I truly believe my staff and I are creating something pretty cool at Bremen and it is because we are passionate about this sport and helping young men and women become successful on and off the mat.

 

 

[KBCclan]

Our school and team is small. We put 7 kids on the mat for varsity meets this year. One of our kids is very good, made it to semi state this year as a freshman. He attends a club / academy in the off season and that is where he's gotten most of his training in the last few years. 

 

Although we are a small team, I don't think we would be in favor of a class system. However, our big problem is finding quality practice partners for this kid or other kids that may be on a higher ability level. It's frustrating seeing a kid not progress at the rate of similar talent because there is nobody in the mat room to partner with or push them. Pairing kids up with different abilities and 40 lb weight differences just to get a practice in is not ideal, safe, or fun for kids. I guess it will always be a disadvantage for small teams in this regard. 

 

I know it would open a huge can of worms but I wish the IHSAA would consider some type of waiver for athletes on teams with limited rosters to continue a limited (1-2 times a week) amount of club practices during HS season for dedicated athletes that are highly committed but limited due to small school, small team syndrome. Something, anything, to be able to have a quality partner or in some cases, just simply having a partner at all to help keep the growth of the athlete moving in a positive direction. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LionsFan]

2 hours ago, KBCclan said:

know it would open a huge can of worms but I wish the IHSAA would consider some type of waiver for athletes on teams with limited rosters to continue a limited (1-2 times a week) amount of club practices during HS season for dedicated athletes that are highly committed but limited due to small school, small team syndrome. Something, anything, to be able to have a quality partner or in some cases, just simply having a partner at all to help keep the growth of the athlete moving in a positive direction. 

I believe in Ohio, once the state tournament begins, schools are allowed to practice together so smaller teams with fewer individuals can find better practice partners. I don’t see why Indiana couldn’t do something similar.

Edited February 18, 2021 by LionsFan