brickfor6 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I have talked about this alot over the past week or so. and it had me wondering what tournaments can do to their seeding criteria to get the freshman that have no criteria seeded? For example at the al smith they were thinking about not seeding rooks who ended up winning the whole thing. Now is another example is Brock peele from portage didnt get seeded wrestled the #1 seed demien first round and had to wrestle back and ended up wrestling him again in the conso semis (lost again) and ended up taking 5th. There has to be something in place to get these freshman seeded. one of the seeding criterias were furthest advancement in the state series. A kid could win 1 match at sectionals and have criteria over these freshman. its a joke and it has to be fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Well for sectional purposes the official IHSAA seeding criteria is: Determination of seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: a. Head to head competition; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed.); b. Record against common opponents; c. Semi‐State quarterfinalist in IHSAA Tournament Series; d. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; e. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA State Tournament Series; So in most cases common opponent or best record would allow a stud freshman to get an OK seed. At Al Smith Rooks may have been limited in common opponents, due to being from father south, but his record should have helped in seeding. Another part of the IHSAA seeding criteria does say: Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage. That should mean common sense in seeding should take over in some cases if several of the coaches involved can vouch for how good a wrestler is despite not meeting the early criteria. However, in reality this is a very subjective argument and obviously the coaches don't want to yield a seed only based on subjective observations. So unless it is a very special wrestler with major recognition I wouldn't expect more than a lower seed due to that IHSAA "suggestion." randalllynch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickfor6 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 this was the seeding criteria, nearly impossible for a freshman to be seeded 1. 2015 head to head 2. Farthest advancement in last year's state series 3. Current year common opponents and record against common opponents 4. Highest placement in last year's Al Smith 5. Overall record/win percentage winning percentage was at the bottom so in this case records did not speak for themselves when a kid that was a ssq is seeded above a freshman with a 22-1 record. i think the al smith needs to over look their seeding criteria. and for the common sense outlook, most coaches are just looking to get their kid the best seed possible and will be the first to pull the criteria card over a freshman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 brickfor6, I think changing the seeding criteria will help with the problem at the Al Smith. I also think they should have a secondary criteria for seeds past 8 to keep the next 9-16 wrestlers separated. No arguing for a seed, just a straight criteria. This IMO would help keep it balanced and most of your FFTs and sub par wrestlers would be better distributed in the first round. It would be wise also to know how to handle scratches. Redrawing an entire bracket is not the answer either. Now, lets take our hats off though, becasue running a 2 day 32 team event in two different gyms with all those different personalites showing up is quite a daunting task for anybody to undertake. busstogate and brickfor6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I have talked about this alot over the past week or so. and it had me wondering what tournaments can do to their seeding criteria to get the freshman that have no criteria seeded? For example at the al smith they were thinking about not seeding rooks who ended up winning the whole thing. Now is another example is Brock peele from portage didnt get seeded wrestled the #1 seed demien first round and had to wrestle back and ended up wrestling him again in the conso semis (lost again) and ended up taking 5th. There has to be something in place to get these freshman seeded. one of the seeding criterias were furthest advancement in the state series. A kid could win 1 match at sectionals and have criteria over these freshman. its a joke and it has to be fixed If the kid gets seeded better and places higher, would this have even been a thread topic? Wrestling Scholar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickfor6 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 If the kid gets seeded better and places higher, would this have even been a thread topic? the whole point was to get stud freshman seeded, and with criteria like that its nearly impossible. xcard- I think that would be in the best intrest of the tournament as well. Hats off to the mishawaka staff for running a great tourney! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 While Rooks was underseeded, it is never an easy task to get everyone seeded in an event like the Al Smith that brings together teams from all corners of the state. The only way is to have a separate entity seed the event based on rankings and such. Rooks got a lot more favorable seed than Drew Hughes did as a freshman...he was 8th and that was like pulling teeth to get him THAT seed. How would you think kids should be seeded? Please don't tell me about using records. Teams like Portage or Bellmont wrestle very good schedules or don't have 25+ matches like some teams. Should that eliminate a kid from being seeded because of some quality losses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickfor6 Posted January 3, 2016 Author Share Posted January 3, 2016 no i dont think that furthest advancement in the state series should be on the criteria, maybe state quailifier/placer. The whole topic was started to find out what they could do to get freshman seeds better. same thing goes for freshman drew, he should of never been an 8 seed, why was he seeded 8, because of the criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 So what are your criteria? You have 30 coaches in a meeting trying to get their kids seeded, you have to have something objective to go upon or else mass chaos would ensue. Then on top of that you have coaches that miraculously don't know all their kid's losses or will literally LIE about their kids..but if the right person is in there he will call them out. randalllynch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navy80 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Would their finish at middle school state count? Or, freestyle state? Maybe Indianamat open...Fargo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Would their finish at middle school state count? Or, freestyle state? Maybe Indianamat open...Fargo? Going to play devil's advocate here....because seeding meetings are always FUN Insert middle school state, ISWA, IHPO, etc before placement How do we judge a placement vs. going to semi-state or placing at the Al Smith the previous year? How do we judge a placement at 105lbs vs. one at 220lbs? How do we judge an ISWA schoolboy state vs. cadet or junior? Remember this has to be objective and something that a random coach with a kid sporting a fine record(1 or 2 losses) can't argue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsfangms Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 (edited) I don't fully understand all of the factors that track uses to determine a wrestler's ranking or standing in the nation, but I believe they take opponent strength into account. Assuming (one day) everyone uses Trackwrestling to keep stats, coaches could use a freshman wrestlers standing in the nation as part of the seeding criteria. Again, don't quote me on the whole thing, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works and another option to help solve the seeding issue. Edited January 3, 2016 by sportsfangms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Coaches are always going to look for a better(easier) draw for their guy in turn defeating the seeding process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Bad things about using track to help seed high school folkstyle events is that most tournaments in the off-season are age group oriented, majority of incoming freshman are schoolboy and are not allowed to make the jump and wrestle a junior level in the tournaments I have gone to. It also incorporates freestyle and greco results (this could be good or bad). Common sense between the coaches is probably the best criteria to keep in (as previously stated). Lately, thanks to sites like this one, more and more people know the freshman as they are entering high school and are quick to recognize these high performing middle schooler's in the seeding meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Besides changing the criteria of Mishawaka to State series before Mishawaka past placing (which I think was a bad move), did they change it to series instead of state finishes. I thought it used to be only state finishes before, than go to record %. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Bad things about using track to help seed high school folkstyle events is that most tournaments in the off-season are age group oriented, majority of incoming freshman are schoolboy and are not allowed to make the jump and wrestle a junior level in the tournaments I have gone to. It also incorporates freestyle and greco results (this could be good or bad). Common sense between the coaches is probably the best criteria to keep in (as previously stated). Lately, thanks to sites like this one, more and more people know the freshman as they are entering high school and are quick to recognize these high performing middle schooler's in the seeding meeting. Two years ago it was suggested I use the TrackWrestling ratings to seed the IHPO. For the most part everything was pretty good. HOWEVER, at one weight it had an 8th grader seeded first over numerous others with state placements. While the 8th grader is a very talented wrestler he wasn't even close to being seeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickfor6 Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) I have talked about this alot over the past week or so. and it had me wondering what tournaments can do to their seeding criteria to get the freshman that have no criteria seeded? For example at the al smith they were thinking about not seeding rooks who ended up winning the whole thing. Now is another example is Brock peele from portage didnt get seeded wrestled the #1 seed demien first round and had to wrestle back and ended up wrestling him again in the conso semis (lost again) and ended up taking 5th. There has to be something in place to get these freshman seeded. one of the seeding criterias were furthest advancement in the state series. A kid could win 1 match at sectionals and have criteria over these freshman. its a joke and it has to be fixed So what are your criteria? You have 30 coaches in a meeting trying to get their kids seeded, you have to have something objective to go upon or else mass chaos would ensue. Then on top of that you have coaches that miraculously don't know all their kid's losses or will literally LIE about their kids..but if the right person is in there he will call them out. Y2 i dont know if you are trying to push an argument or something, i don't know what your point is? I asked in my first post what can tournaments do to get these freshman seeded... because obviously i don't have the answer. and yes i know about a seeding meeting i was at. lol Edited January 4, 2016 by brickfor6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I'm not pushing for an argument, trying to get some ideas on how we seed these freshmen. It's not an easy answer and I would gladly pass along good suggestions to the Mishawaka people. brickfor6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Common sense should be the #1 criteria. ontherise219 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Common sense should be the #1 criteria. You have 30 coaches in a room all fighting for seeds for their kids...even some that will literally lie about their accomplishments...good luck! backtothemat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Dont' let coaches seed, have a committee, and let them do it. Mooresville used to not have a seeding meeting, information was sent in, wrestlers were seeded, and we wrestled. I'm not sure if that is still how it goes or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickfor6 Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) I'm not pushing for an argument, trying to get some ideas on how we seed these freshmen. It's not an easy answer and I would gladly pass along good suggestions to the Mishawaka people. I just read it wrong i guess, my apologies. And common sense should be....but you have coaches that think a 2x stateq has criteria over a 1x state placer of the previous year. To be realistic i don't think the problem with freshman seeds will ever be solved. Edited January 4, 2016 by brickfor6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 You have 30 coaches in a room all fighting for seeds for their kids...even some that will literally lie about their accomplishments...good luck! Been in those rooms, gonna need a LOT of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionsFan Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) I was at the seed meeting years ago when Wright and Kieffer were seeded number 2 and 3 at sectionals. Common sense failed to prevail there. You have to have coaches who will show integrity and do what's best for all wrestlers. I always want to get my kid the best possible seed, but if they haven't earned it, then they shouldn't have it. If my kid lost to somebody they shouldn't have, then in my mind they hurt themselves. I'm not going to lie about it just so they can be seeded higher. Common sense and integrity of coaches have to be present in addition to the seeding criteria for the state series. Edited January 4, 2016 by LionsFan brickfor6 and LionsFan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Man, you guys make it sound like some seeding meetings are straight outta The Godfather! takedownartist and brickfor6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts