littlevito Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I would have to say that tonight's hangout was one of the best so far. I totally agree with what coach Tonte and coach Pendoski had to say about Team State and dual meets. Team State Tonte hit it right on the money about the atmosphere of Center Grove. The way they brought each team in as a parade was amazing. It was something that wrestlers enjoyed, and really got the crowd ready for the day. I know this would be a little more difficult with 36 teams, but trying to make the event as big as possible is what it needs. One of the best things about Center Grove besides being able to see all the matches going on was the awards presentation. Being able to walk across that platform to receive a medal was a moment that a kid will remember forever. I really hope the IHSWCA comes up with a better way for awards instead of sticking the teams in a corner and putting the Trophy on a box of shirts. This tournament is heading in the right direction and I feel it is exactly what we need. And as Joe put it, treat it like a Super Bowl and it will become a Super Bowl. Dual Meets I couldn't agree more with schedules needing more dual meets instead of spending Saturdays wrestling five times. Super duals have seem to hurt fan bases of programs, cause no one wants to go sit 10 hours on a Saturday in a gym to watch wrestling. The excitement that can be built in dual meets and rivalries are fan friendly. It was nice to see that two coaches that I have followed my whole life have the same mind set on ways to keep our sport strong and growing. Y2CJ41 and FASTMarine 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Bleachers Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Nothing against Coach Tonte or yourself, I have been a wrestler, a coach, and now just a fan, and I love Saturday Super Duals. I have to work like many other fans sometimes late throughout the week and are unable to participate in duals throughout the week. So I enjoy being able to sit a watch a day of wrestling on Saturday. Also I think that Super Duals are worth the money, more than a single dual meet. At least in Southern Indiana it seems that the numbers are down in a lot of programs and there are a vast amount of forfeits. So going in to single dual meets there can be forfeits through a lot of weight classes and it is more of a problem in my opinion why the fans are discouraged and maybe low in numbers for both duals and Super Duals. I may be the only one on this, but I don't think so. grapplegirl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The argument about more weekday dual meets has been commonplace since I started high school wrestling in the 92-93 season. The rhetoric then was exactly the same as it is now 22 years later--we've gone to too many super duals that are cutting into fan interest. But schedule compositions seem virtually identical now to what they were 22 years ago. New Castle was the famous example of wrestling a bazillion matches then (I don't know why they get singled out...everyone else does the same thing) and they still get mentioned now. "The good ol' days" of kids wrestling only 20-25 matches before sectional got talked about then the way it is now. Any thoughts on what would have to change to impact real movement on this issue so it's not 2037 and we're still having the same conversations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruins2013 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Nothing against Coach Tonte or yourself, I have been a wrestler, a coach, and now just a fan, and I love Saturday Super Duals. I have to work like many other fans sometimes late throughout the week and are unable to participate in duals throughout the week. So I enjoy being able to sit a watch a day of wrestling on Saturday. Also I think that Super Duals are worth the money, more than a single dual meet. At least in Southern Indiana it seems that the numbers are down in a lot of programs and there are a vast amount of forfeits. So going in to single dual meets there can be forfeits through a lot of weight classes and it is more of a problem in my opinion why the fans are discouraged and maybe low in numbers for both duals and Super Duals. I may be the only one on this, but I don't think so. I could not agree more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The argument about more weekday dual meets has been commonplace since I started high school wrestling in the 92-93 season. The rhetoric then was exactly the same as it is now 22 years later--we've gone to too many super duals that are cutting into fan interest. But schedule compositions seem virtually identical now to what they were 22 years ago. New Castle was the famous example of wrestling a bazillion matches then (I don't know why they get singled out...everyone else does the same thing) and they still get mentioned now. "The good ol' days" of kids wrestling only 20-25 matches before sectional got talked about then the way it is now. Any thoughts on what would have to change to impact real movement on this issue so it's not 2037 and we're still having the same conversations? In all honesty it will have to be something coming down from the IHSAA. Whether it's a match limit, date limit, or whatever teams are going to work to get the maximum number of matches possible. Tenish years ago the IHSAA mandated the four duals meets as teams like Griffith were getting 60+ matches. Now teams are finding ways around that by scheduling more two-day events where they can get 8-10 matches. There are probably double the amount of two-day events now than were ten years ago. Nothing against Coach Tonte or yourself, I have been a wrestler, a coach, and now just a fan, and I love Saturday Super Duals. I have to work like many other fans sometimes late throughout the week and are unable to participate in duals throughout the week. So I enjoy being able to sit a watch a day of wrestling on Saturday. Also I think that Super Duals are worth the money, more than a single dual meet. At least in Southern Indiana it seems that the numbers are down in a lot of programs and there are a vast amount of forfeits. So going in to single dual meets there can be forfeits through a lot of weight classes and it is more of a problem in my opinion why the fans are discouraged and maybe low in numbers for both duals and Super Duals. I may be the only one on this, but I don't think so. Grandma and Grandpa, Aunt Sally, Cousin Earl, and the student body aren't going to sit around all day and watch a super dual. If you're lucky they'll come for a couple matches and leave. Duals can help bring in crowds, you can promote them during school, and you can do things with younger youth wrestlers also. bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FASTMarine Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Nothing against Coach Tonte or yourself, I have been a wrestler, a coach, and now just a fan, and I love Saturday Super Duals. I have to work like many other fans sometimes late throughout the week and are unable to participate in duals throughout the week. So I enjoy being able to sit a watch a day of wrestling on Saturday. Also I think that Super Duals are worth the money, more than a single dual meet. At least in Southern Indiana it seems that the numbers are down in a lot of programs and there are a vast amount of forfeits. So going in to single dual meets there can be forfeits through a lot of weight classes and it is more of a problem in my opinion why the fans are discouraged and maybe low in numbers for both duals and Super Duals. I may be the only one on this, but I don't think so. I couldn't disagree more. Growing the sport isn't about the die hard family, friends & fans. Those people will sit thru fire to watch a good wrestling match! If we hope to grow the sport we need to look at getting the "common" fan into the stands and the young athlete into the wrestling room. As the coaches said 6-8 long Saturday's each season are a much harder sell (for the common fan and young athlete) then those die hards who have been wrestling thier hole lives. Just my opinion..... bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I see the benefit for having dual meets during the week and super duels on the weekends. I guess the problem I have with dual meets during the week is that they start so late, which gets kids home between 10-11pm at night. There is also issues with trying to get homework completed, and let’s not kid ourselves some of these kids need all the time they get for homework (doesn’t mean they will do it). Dual meets during the week also make it hard for a balanced diet and creating routine. I do agree it can bring more fans in, but if it is not promoted or made into an event the outcome of increased attendance doesn’t happen. Warsaw has Super Dual matches in the first part of our season and in the back end of our schedule the weekend tournaments shift to individual. I understand the concern about the weekend events, but it makes sense to me because the conference, sectionals and up are held on the weekend. A huge part of time in these programs are getting kids conditioned and geared up to wrestle their best for these meets. There is a huge difference watching kids that are conditioned to wrestling long tournament verses ones that are not use to it. To me it is easy to pick out the ISWA and HYWAY kids during these events. I feel these weekend tournaments teach the kids the mental and physical toughness needed to be ready for the end of year events. Once again if you have a home tournament and advertise and promote it than it can be just as successful, if not more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I couldn't disagree more. Growing the sport isn't about the die hard family, friends & fans. Those people will sit thru fire to watch a good wrestling match! If we hope to grow the sport we need to look at getting the "common" fan into the stands and the young athlete into the wrestling room. As the coaches said 6-8 long Saturday's each season are a much harder sell (for the common fan and young athlete) then those die hards who have been wrestling thier hole lives. Just my opinion..... Beat me to it, well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Bleachers Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Ok so here is my question: If this is really how The Coaches feel then why are they not changing their schedule. If dual meets help the program so much more the Super Duals why are teams like Mater Dei, Penn, Portage, Perry Meridian not only scheduling the Dual meets. They all have been good for awhile now yet you don't see them putting this theory into practice as much as it is said will help them. I am sorry that wrestling isn't getting the "common" people in to the seats, but like it has been stated already duals don't prepare you as well as Super Duals and individual tournaments will. I understand that I haven't been around as long as some of you as far as the sport goes, but tradition seems to grow programs more than what types of meet you go to does. perfect example is Mater Dei (hate um, or love um) they are a smaller school but rich in tradition and people are saying it is a down year for them and they are OUR STATE CHAMPION TEAM. I just feel that if the duals was so much more effective then that is what everyone would go to, but realistically we know that is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Since 2011 Perry Meridian has shaved off 10 matches for their kids. In 2011 Jared McKinley had 54 matches when he won state. Last year Cody LeCount had 44. That translates to having about 30 matches before sectional. That is basically taking two super duals away and adding two dual meets. No one has said that having all duals is the way to go. We are stretching kids and families thin when they spend almost EVERY Saturday in the gym for 10 hours from December through late February. Right now there are basically 10 weeks of the wrestling season. Subtract two weeks of Christmas there are 8 weeks where we can get weekday duals in. If we have a dual almost every week it helps keep fans and potential new people to the sport around. In football everyone knows every Friday there is a game, same with basketball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I will use the Brownsburg Avon Match as an example. We try to make it a spectacle, a highlight dual. Avon is our rival why wouldn't we do everything we can to promote it from DJs and Spotlights to goofy over the top promo videos. We had the most fans in that gym than we have since i moved down here. It was the same thing with the Penn-Mishawaka Duals when both programs were at the top. That's how you bring average fans in and they come back for other dual meets. The Dual meet is the best way to push our sport forward from a Fan Perspective. KarlHungus, FASTMarine and rdrodd1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Bleachers Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I do not disagree with that. Rivalries hopefully does bring a bigger turn out. I did not actually go but I heard Mt. Vernon (Posey) had a good turn out earlier in the year when they wrestle Memorial. They supposedly built it up since at the time they were ranked lower the Memorial. And those meets are enjoy able. And as I had said I may be wrong. But I am of the mentality that wrestling is an acquired sport. It is to physical for some, and others that have never wrestled or been around wrestling don't understand it enough to enjoy it. But who am I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I do not disagree with that. Rivalries hopefully does bring a bigger turn out. I did not actually go but I heard Mt. Vernon (Posey) had a good turn out earlier in the year when they wrestle Memorial. They supposedly built it up since at the time they were ranked lower the Memorial. And those meets are enjoy able. And as I had said I may be wrong. But I am of the mentality that wrestling is an acquired sport. It is to physical for some, and others that have never wrestled or been around wrestling don't understand it enough to enjoy it. But who am I. The best way to acquire a taste for something isn't to plop down and watch it for 8-10 hours straight. carseller0822 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The best way to acquire a taste for something isn't to plop down and watch it for 8-10 hours straight. It works for netflix carseller0822, TripleB, AJ and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 When I coached at Muncie Southside we wrestled New Castle every year in what was called "Friday Night Wrestling". We held the dual on a Friday and we always had the middle school wrestle the same night as well before the high school (did middle school on 2 mats so not to take too much time). We would have huge crowds for this event every year. It works for netflix I am ashamed to say, I could list about 4-6 shows that consumed 8-10 hours of my time... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westforkwhite Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I couldn't disagree more. Growing the sport isn't about the die hard family, friends & fans. Those people will sit thru fire to watch a good wrestling match! If we hope to grow the sport we need to look at getting the "common" fan into the stands and the young athlete into the wrestling room. As the coaches said 6-8 long Saturday's each season are a much harder sell (for the common fan and young athlete) then those die hards who have been wrestling thier hole lives. Just my opinion..... Hit the nail on the head. Passionate wrestling fans don't need to be courted, they will spend all day in a cramped gym flattening their butts on the bleachers (myself included) and enjoy every minute of it. This is great and no one is suggesting we turn our backs on this set of fans, but this hardly the group that needs pursued(You've got them hook, line & sinker). Its important to understand that sports compete with all other entertainment for viewers, and if wrestling doesn't offer them an entertaining product then its not hard to find alternatives. It's wonderful to hear about the Brownsburg vs Avon dual and the efforts the staff's went to make it a memorable event for not just the wrestlers but the fans in attendance. These fans are also significantly more likely to be repeat attenders than a fan that gets "suckered" into going to an all day event (family/friends & casual spectators can often go away with this feeling) Super Duals definitely have their value, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the traditional dual. I don't think anyone on here is suggesting that the super duals go away, but in a sport that has attendance/participation issues we need to make efforts to make the sport more attractive to watch and participate. Going to tournaments and super duals in recent years I have seen a lot of great wrestling, the caliber of which far exceeds what was happening 20 years ago in this state. As much as this competition has helped raise the level of IN wrestling, to some degree it has also come at the expense of the dual. Short of the State Finals its hard to find a more exciting atmosphere in wrestling than a well staged dual. If you work to make an "event" out of a dual and get people in the door, you've got a good chance of converting a few people over to the darkside (die hard fans)!!! bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie78 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Fremont did a nice job of dressing up our dual with them last night, killing all the lights except for those directly above the mat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poitup123 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think the issue is with schedule points. Would it be cool to have a nice marquee dual every week that builds routine passion on non-basketball-heavy nights (remember which state we're discussing)? Absolutely. Is that possible with only 18 schedule points? Most likely not. The goal is to get individuals better prepared for the state tournament, and 18 one-night, one-match duals would only go so far to prepare you for that, especially when other teams in your sectional are getting the maximum use out of their points. What I'd like to know as a relative newcomer to the coaching end is whether there was a sea change in the schedule points any time in the last 15 years because if you look at the records of just the guys in the state finals every year, you no longer see the guys who are, say, 61-0. With 18 points and at least four duals, you are talking a max of 39 regular-season matches (4 duals and 7 five-match events) unless you count two-day, two-point events like the Al Smith or what have you. I mean, Alex Tsirtsis was 256-0 as a prep, and Jason was 176-2, and they both made some runs to the team state finals, so why -- in general -- the 78-match disparity? It had to do with the schedule points, I assume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 About 10 years ago the IHSAA mandated there be 4 single duals on everyone's schedule. This was after the Griffith years with Tsirtsis and Escobedo. There are teams that get way more than 39 matches in before sectional. You can do as many two day events with 8-10 matches as you want. So in reality the maximum matches is 74. There are teams that routinely have 50+ matches with kids that enter semi-state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 About 10 years ago the IHSAA mandated there be 4 single duals on everyone's schedule. This was after the Griffith years with Tsirtsis and Escobedo. There are teams that get way more than 39 matches in before sectional. You can do as many two day events with 8-10 matches as you want. So in reality the maximum matches is 74. There are teams that routinely have 50+ matches with kids that enter semi-state. How is this? I thought there were 18 credits max for each wrestler. single duals (min of 4) as 1 credit each and each weekend with 2 or over teams counting as 2 credits. conference tournaments count toward the credits (which is silly since we burn up some while wrestling during season). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poitup123 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Thanks. I knew two-day events had to be another way to get those 60-70 pre-sectional matches, but I was thinking another factor in the decrease in matches was a falling off of two-day, 10-match events. It's probably only doable around Thanksgiving and winter break, so even then it would probably only be three or four of those realistically. Still, thanks for the update on the four-dual mandate. I think if we had more schedule points we could do more weeknight rivalry-building duals to get the casual fans (even if it's just the other winter sport athletes hanging out after practice) to dip their toes in the shallow end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 18 points 4 points for duals = 4 matches 14 points for two-day events with a max of 10 matches 7 events with 10 matches = 70 matches 74 matches maximum There is no limit to your two-day events so you can in theory wrestle seven of them. Thanks. I knew two-day events had to be another way to get those 60-70 pre-sectional matches, but I was thinking another factor in the decrease in matches was a falling off of two-day, 10-match events. It's probably only doable around Thanksgiving and winter break, so even then it would probably only be three or four of those realistically. Still, thanks for the update on the four-dual mandate. I think if we had more schedule points we could do more weeknight rivalry-building duals to get the casual fans (even if it's just the other winter sport athletes hanging out after practice) to dip their toes in the shallow end. If you have 2 two-day events with 10 matches you would still get 49 matches before sectional starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backtothemat Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Last night there was a dual between Tecumseh and Vincennes Lincoln won by Tec 63-10. Vincennes Forfeited five matches plus there was a double FF at 113. Five Tec wrestlers had a FF that counted as a match. This is why the super duals are so important. Look at the SIAC Brackets next week to see how many forfeits there will be in a decent conference. My son is a 106 and has had only 4 forfeits in 25 matches. I am guessing that is as good a ratio as anywhere in the State for a 106 but it is still a lot of Forfeits Most duals are not Avon-Brownsburg quality. In The Bleachers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The Portage and Boone Grove dual was a real barn burner. The crowd was one of the bigger one's in awhile. I wasn't there but good dual nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poitup123 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I totally understand the math, but I wasn't aware of a proliferate number of two-day, 10-match meets every weekend. All I'm saying is I think whatever people are pining for with individual duals would be solved if we had a few more schedule points and perhaps a few more mandated duals, something like 21 total points, 7 for singles. This year we wrestled with a bunch of freshmen who didn't know that weeknight duals existed until this month, which was funny but also telling of the state of scheduling. So, yes, it would be nice to have some more duals, thereby growing the sport among casual fans, but if the state only mandates four of them, most teams, especially independents or teams in tiny conferences, will only do the minimum required. 18 points 4 points for duals = 4 matches 14 points for two-day events with a max of 10 matches 7 events with 10 matches = 70 matches 74 matches maximum There is no limit to your two-day events so you can in theory wrestle seven of them. If you have 2 two-day events with 10 matches you would still get 49 matches before sectional starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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