Team State Debate

[KarlHungus]

Y2 you keep saying this is to help the really bad schools, but in a class system why wouldn't they still be really bad?  I mean its not like if they class the thing the last place teams in the tourny aee going to automatically become a better team.  If you finish last now they'd still get last in the small school tourny, they may get a few guys through here and there but not enough to change the program around.  I think it would help the middle and second tier teams much more than the really bad ones.  I also think a lot of the bad schools have more to their problems than the one class tourny.  You even stated earlier in this thread that a lot of it comes down to coaches with the comitment to make their teams better.  You stated this when talking about northrop.

 

That was me that said that about Northrop.  Northrop does have bigger problems.  But they also have a higher ceiling if they ever fix the other issues.

 

I think a classed system would help nearly all the schools and I think Y2 has said this too.  Sure it would benefit second tier programs like PH, Busco, Garrett, South Adams, Jimtown, whitko. 

 

And yes the really bad teams are still going to be really bad.  There is such a thing as light at the end of the tunnel though.  Maybe if the kids at Central Noble or Eastside know they are competing against the same kids they go against on the football or baseball field, their coaches will stand a chance of filling out more than half their lineup or scoring more then 0 points at sectional.

[KarlHungus]

Dude I'm talking about the class wrestling movement but you love to twist things to poor you. The way you are condensending & sarcastic to people who disagree with you is very unnessary but I'm sure its ok to you the way you treat everyone, and I'm so wrong coming back at you in the same tone. I have never been in your room and have no clue how you coach so don't put those words in my mouth,but some of your responses tells me all I need to know about you as a communicator which affects I'm sure many of your efforts. I'm done with this men agree to disagree so lets try it!

 

You sound like Josef Stalin.....just work harder and harder and let us have ours (team and one class individual tourney).  Then when the little people don't buy what your selling, attack the messenger.  Classic soviet tactics.  Why on earth should a small school support the team state series?  Since this is the second time you have retired from this thread, you don't have to respond.

[Y2CJ41]

Ohhh I guess we can't strive to be like those states can we?  I guess it is only a pipe dream to have a tournament like Iowa or Wisconsin that sells out every year and if you don't get your tickets in advance you won't be watching those horrible classed finals.

[Y2CJ41]

Why dont you work to get positive responses to the questions you blew off or had answers that are a big part of the reasons your not having the desired results your looking for. For instance if you get these kids early enough into your club and these kids learn and love the sport of wrestling it may be their #1 priorty sport instead of 3rd. Also the kids that aren't wrestling in the spring and summer wont be anymore sucessful in a class system then they are now! If your past wrestlers aren't coming back and helping coach and to help give back, then that tells me theres work to do within the program or they don't feel welcomed. Those are your future assistants, and if none  have returned from the past then thats a internal program issue! If the wrestlers that you coached that now have famlies and their kids aren't wrestling then ask yourself why. How long have you been there?

Again you have to make this about Garrett wrestling and want to rip on me.  How many 2A state championship programs have you built?  I am curious since you seem to have all the answers.  You should honestly speak at the next coaches clinic with all this knowledge that you have.

 

Since you can't debate the topic at hand you instead resort to personally attacking the opponent, great way to debate. 

[indyt]

I will go into detail later but if you or anyone else is truly into making Indiana Wrestling better, regardless of school size, then the team state is a must.  When you say, why would any small school support the team state, I would contend that why would they support the individual state having a team champion crowned at all?.  What is best for wrestling?  What is best for kids?  What I am really seeing is that people who have been bashing big schools(and if you say its not happening you are not listening) are really doing exactly what they say the big schools are doing-They are being selfish.    I know this is not going to be very political and again, if I offended any of you and many of you  are my friends, I am sorry.  But, if the team state is for big schools then Ben Davis, Carmel, Penn and Warren should be in the semis against each other every year.  And, not to say that they cant-the are great wrestling schools but they have just been getting beat by a smaller great wrestling school somewhere along the line(again, not to say they cant change that and as quickly as this year).  I hope nobody takes this as an insult to them or their program.  I would love to see all of you succeed and your kids.  I coach lots of kids in the off season not from my program and I love it as the season gets going to see these kids grow and do special things.  Not due to me coaching them but their home program.  I am just fortunate enough to be able to be around these studs.  Good luck to all.  Lets get together on this.

 

I had a very prominent coach at a 5A school in Indianapolis tell me straight up at the coaches clinic that he would rather see it go back to the old system because he has 4 or 5 studs but does not want to work to make 14 or 28 team players.  I would consider myself good friends with this coach and appreciate his honesty but the reality is, thats not whats best for the sport or the kids.  

I know this opens me up for lots of comments but I can take it.  I want what is best for our sport and our kids.  A classed system would be best.  I have said it for several years but we have to keep it first. By the way, my AD, who is not a wrestling person per say, is in support of us keeping the team aspect.  He also said he went thru the notes of all 16(I think that is the number he gave me)principals and AD's meetings with the IHSAA this fall and none of them said the Team State was dead.  He does not get that impression.  Could be if not hyped up-yes, done-no.  In fact, it seems as if we as a wrestling community are doing more to lose this and damage this than anyone.  Why?  I have talked to Bobby Cox and Blake Ress for years.  One thing that seems to stand out to me is that they are so much more team sport oriented than individual its obvious.  How many times have they both said, how many times do you have to lose and not be out of the tournament.  They go on to say, in  basketball............They like team sports.  They like the one and done thing.  Thats our team tournament.   We must work to keep this!!!

 

Coach Tonte

[1oldwrestler]

If the team state series was done away with but the individual series was classed, would the popularity of h.s. wrestling in Indiana increase, decrease or stay about the same?  

[PreparetoWin]

The team series has seen a dramatic decrease in revenue lately.  Last year only 1,200 fans were in attendance and the total revenue from the whole state series was just over $4,000.  The previous year it was $8,500 and prior to that it was $23K in 2008, $18K in 2007 and $27K in 2006.  Attendance as gone from around 2500 to the 1200 mark last year.

 

Ok so I did read that correctly...thanks Y2.  So why would IHSAA want to get rid of something that is still making a little bit of money, ok its down but arent there alot of sports that are actually losing money?  wouldnt that be there first priority to fix or scratch? This may sound crazy, but I think wrestling could save itself by doing some marketing, promotionals, etc? (lets get some local elem schools involved at the team state, maybe a couple of duals with the kids).  Attendance goes nuts when you have a few teams of litle kids involved, at least in the communities around here.  How about honoring some past state championship teams, get those teams and their fans out there.  Price breaks for a teams that brings 10 or more wrestlers...I know the area we are in there isnt alot of marketing as to where?when?who? is competing.  Would it be possible to wrestle team state after individual state, because I have seen schools who are large underdogs switch their lineups around to avoid potential individual state matchups.  These matches are what people want to see, after individual state you may even see tough kids go after one another?  I would like to hear what people think about, if a change needs made, why wouldnt we try with small steps first, class the team state and then if it works and money is made, then we discuss the individual portion.  If team state takes an upturn this year and goes back to the 2007 income by implementing ideas or changing the format...would their still be a need to change individual state? Y2 are there any numbers as to how much revenue the 2 day state event brings in? what about the entire state series? Thanks for listening:)

[Y2CJ41]

If the team state series was done away with but the individual series was classed, would the popularity of h.s. wrestling in Indiana increase, decrease or stay about the same? 

In my opinion it would increase.  I will preface it by saying it won't be overnight, but in a 5-10 year span you will see an increase in participants and excitement at the small school level where right now wrestling is not doing so hot.

 

When more kids enjoy success, whether it be as ticket-rounders, state qualifiers or placers, more kids will want to be a part of it.  I know where I come from the interest in the sport has risen dramatically when we started getting state qualifiers routinely.  I even have had quite a few comments this spring and summer complimenting me on our great season and how we had some really good kids.  People notice when teams have success...even a little bit, and that will mean more kids get the recognition they deserve.

 

We also must realize that the current wrestlers are our future fans, refs, and most importantly COACHES.  If the kids have a positive experience in wrestling they will be more likely to give back to the sport. 

[Y2CJ41]

Iowa and Wisco's rabid wrestling culture did not emerge because of classed wrestling. 

Class wrestling surely didn't kill the sport there did it?  What about Oregon where they have added classes due to interest?  Or what about in Illinois where the coaches voted to add another class two years ago?

[Y2CJ41]

So by that argument since we have state qualifiers and placers that "aren't good" maybe we should go back to only allowing the top 2 out of semistate to state? It seems you only want the good kids to make it right?

[1oldwrestler]

In my opinion it would increase.  I will preface it by saying it won't be overnight, but in a 5-10 year span you will see an increase in participants and excitement at the small school level where right now wrestling is not doing so hot.

 

When more kids enjoy success, whether it be as ticket-rounders, state qualifiers or placers, more kids will want to be a part of it.  I know where I come from the interest in the sport has risen dramatically when we started getting state qualifiers routinely.  I even have had quite a few comments this spring and summer complimenting me on our great season and how we had some really good kids.  People notice when teams have success...even a little bit, and that will mean more kids get the recognition they deserve.

 

We also must realize that the current wrestlers are our future fans, refs, and most importantly COACHES.  If the kids have a positive experience in wrestling they will be more likely to give back to the sport. 

 

My next question is, if we keep the team series and class it and also class the individual series at the same time, will that speed up the popularity faster than the 5-10 year span you are predicting if IN were to get rid of team but class individual?

[Y2CJ41]

My next question is, if we keep the team series and class it and also class the individual series at the same time, will that speed up the popularity faster than the 5-10 year span you are predicting if IN were to get rid of team but class individual?

Classing the individual state will affect more people faster.  I believe over the past 12 or so years 260 teams in the state have been represented in the state finals which is just short of 85%.  In the same time span around 36 teams have been represented at the team state finals, which is 11%.  Making team state three classes would possibly in turn grow to affect 30% of the teams in the state in a positive manner.  Classing the individual side would hopefully in turn affect 100% of the teams in a positive manner.

 

Classing the team side would not help the teams that are in the bottom tier, it would help the small and midsized solid teams.  Teams like the Garretts or Whitkos.  I think those teams would love it, but at the same time they aren't exactly struggling at this time.

 

*Note that this follows the logic that getting more state qualifiers and placers is good for a wrestling program.  I believe many people do not find this to be true.

[Y2CJ41]

Your funny. 

I am being serious.  If I am reading what you were stating correctly, your goal for wrestling in this state is to have the absolute TOUGHEST tournament possible.  Am I wrong?  If I am, please tell me what your goal for this state in wrestling is.  My goal would be to get the most kids possible out for this sport and grow it so much that some people are turned away at our state finals because they didn't get a ticket.  Is your goal soley based on getting that "true" champion? 

[CoachW33]

Iowa and Wisco don't compare to us because they are far, far ahead of us in popularity of the sport

 

Wouldn't getting more kids into wrestling help the sports popularity. I think we've already decided class wrestling would get more kids involved. I think by following in the footsteps of Wisc and Iowa maybe we could close the gap in popularity and become known for more than basketball in the Hoosier state.

[KarlHungus]

I will go into detail later but if you or anyone else is truly into making Indiana Wrestling better, regardless of school size, then the team state is a must.  When you say, why would any small school support the team state, I would contend that why would they support the individual state having a team champion crowned at all?.  What is best for wrestling?  What is best for kids?  What I am really seeing is that people who have been bashing big schools(and if you say its not happening you are not listening) are really doing exactly what they say the big schools are doing-They are being selfish.

 

I agree a classed team and individual state would be what is best for kids and wrestling.  Small schools have very little incentive to keep the present team state series.  I agree it is a good thing for the elite programs but that is a minority of the wrestlers out there.  We should focus efforts on changes that would affect the majority of kids and programs.

 

 

I know this opens me up for lots of comments but I can take it.  I want what is best for our sport and our kids.  A classed system would be best.  I have said it for several years but we have to keep it first. By the way, my AD, who is not a wrestling person per say, is in support of us keeping the team aspect.  He also said he went thru the notes of all 16(I think that is the number he gave me)principals and AD's meetings with the IHSAA this fall and none of them said the Team State was dead.  He does not get that impression.  Could be if not hyped up-yes, done-no.  In fact, it seems as if we as a wrestling community are doing more to lose this and damage this than anyone.  Why?  I have talked to Bobby Cox and Blake Ress for years.  One thing that seems to stand out to me is that they are so much more team sport oriented than individual its obvious.  How many times have they both said, how many times do you have to lose and not be out of the tournament.  They go on to say, in  basketball............They like team sports.  They like the one and done thing.  Thats our team tournament.  We must work to keep this!!!

 

Coach Tonte

 

Your AD and mine must be interpreting the same information differently.  I honestly hope your AD and your reading of the IHSAA's intentions are correct.  Losing any wrestling is a bad thing.  I'm just not convinced that any push to save the present team state series will bear any fruit.

[Timeinandout]

Classing the individual state will affect more people faster.  I believe over the past 12 or so years 260 teams in the state have been represented in the state finals which is just short of 85%.  In the same time span around 36 teams have been represented at the team state finals, which is 11%.  Making team state three classes would possibly in turn grow to affect 30% of the teams in the state in a positive manner.  Classing the individual side would hopefully in turn affect 100% of the teams in a positive manner.

 

Classing the team side would not help the teams that are in the bottom tier, it would help the small and midsized solid teams.  Teams like the Garretts or Whitkos.  I think those teams would love it, but at the same time they aren't exactly struggling at this time.

 

*Note that this follows the logic that getting more state qualifiers and placers is good for a wrestling program.  I believe many people do not find this to be true.

Statistics are crazy.  How many different teams have gotten to the regional or semi-state finals?  This would include the top 16 teams like our individual state.  How does one kid qualifying for state envolve an entire team?  Sure, a percentage of the team will go watch their teammate, but many won't even do that.  Any coach that wants to get rid of team state should be ashamed.  We have to keep team state to get it classed, and if they class the team they will class the individual like every other state.  Then we could all win.  The fans that want to get rid of team state and keep individual state one class are selfish.

[Y2CJ41]

Feel free to go find those statistics yourself.  I honestly do not have the time to do it right now.

 

I find it hard to believe that a school(not matter if there are classes or not) is not affected positively by getting more kids to state.  You don't think having more state qualifiers and placers on your team won't make everyone better?  It won't be good for the middle schoolers to see that and want to be like the latest state placer?

[tskin]

Bottom line is if IHSAA is going to say profit is the reason for getting rid of Team State, then classing it and getting alot of smaller teams involved in the team portion of tourney will make more money.  One sudgestion I would have and someone prob has mentioned this already but once the team state is classed they need to sit down and look at how they align the team sectional, because that will also cut back on revenue if you have alot of teams traveling a great distance early on in the series.

 

Soccer is going to a two class system next year what is everyones take on a two class system in team series or do they think more classes?

[Y2CJ41]

128 schools have won regional titles all-time... meaning in all of history whether it is team or individual

70 schools have won team regional titles since 1996 when it was first implemented

27 of those teams have won regional ONCE

25 of those teams have won regional three or more times

 

 

[KarlHungus]

I don't think anyone outside of the IHSAA offices is advocating the elimination of team state.

[CoachW33]

Bottom line is if IHSAA is going to say profit is the reason for getting rid of Team State, then classing it and getting alot of smaller teams involved in the team portion of tourney will make more money.  One sudgestion I would have and someone prob has mentioned this already but once the team state is classed they need to sit down and look at how they align the team sectional, because that will also cut back on revenue if you have alot of teams traveling a great distance early on in the series.

 

Soccer is going to a two class system next year what is everyones take on a two class system in team series or do they think more classes?

 

I think a 2 class system would be a start. It would give us an idea of the the  affect it would have on teams throughout the state. At the beginning of this topic I asked the question, how do we put this in motion, so again I ask, how do we put this in motion? I understand that everyone isn't for classing, but some are and I think if it was explained to every coach and the facts were presented, we would have more coaches than not in favor. It would be nice to have a vote, maybe send a document to every AD and coach in the state with this information and get the numbers for those in favor and those who are not.

[KarlHungus]

I think a 2 class system would be a start. It would give us an idea of the the  affect it would have on teams throughout the state. At the beginning of this topic I asked the question, how do we put this in motion, so again I ask, how do we put this in motion? I understand that everyone isn't for classing, but some are and I think if it was explained to every coach and the facts were presented, we would have more coaches than not in favor. It would be nice to have a vote, maybe send a document to every AD and coach in the state with this information and get the numbers for those in favor and those who are not.

 

The only way the IHSAA would or could consider such a proposal is for it to come from the coach's association.

[indyt]

Statistics can be played out any way you want them to.  I can twist and say who is or is not being effected.  The bottom line is, what is best for the sport.  Karl, you are saying we should focus on changes that is best for the non elite programs since its only the elite programs that are involved and also you are saying focus on changes for the small schools since the team state has no bearing on them.  What is it about the IHSAA dont you see.  First, you have to keep something before you can change it.  I am really confused as to why people keep saying, why do this or why do that when it only involves the elite programs.  Who are those programs?  Can someone list them?  Can someone like Jeffersonville be considered elite.  They lost by 10 or less points to EMD and Castle the last couple of years.  They are busting their tale to beat those teams.  I am sure Danny is selling team, team, team.  Otherwise he would not have 18 juniors and 23 seniors.  Thats 41 kids who probably dont wrestle if he does not have them sold on beating EMD and the new powerhouse, Castle, who could not get a sniff a few years back when small school EMD dominated the state.  I will say it again, Perry had 3 kids in its club at our first club practice and 12 on the high school team at the end of our first year.  We put a plan together, we recruited like crazy(but not as good as struck does).  How can we have more kids out than some schools that have twice as many students as us?  How is that possible?  By numbers alone we should not be able to do that.  Just like EMD or Belmont or Yorktown or Roncalli should not be able to compete with the 5a schools with 4000 kids but they do.  And, I dont want to here the recruiting stuff.  Roncalli is in my district.  We share kids and they dont recruit.  But, they do compete.  

So, we should not focus on keeping team state, rather focus on doing something that will benifit the nonelite and also the small schools so that they can do something that they, for the most part, have never done before and win the coaches trophy or if so deemed by the IHSAA, the individual team state championship.  I just do not understand that mentality and never will.  Again, I appreciate listening to both sides of something and I am very open to anytthing that helps this sport I love but I am very blinded to something that seems to hurt our sport more than it helps an dif you truly believe team state is hurting our sport please convince me.  I am all ears(as is Wes Wesly:)-red alert.

[Y2CJ41]

indyt,

If you had a choice which would you choose.

 

A. A plan to help your top 4 kids on your team

B. A plan to help all 50(or whatever) kids on your team

 

This example is on the small scale, but we are all one team in wrestling.  That is 310 members on this team.  I want something that will help all of our team members not just our upper echelon members.

[tskin]

I would also like to add I got booed by Y2CJ41 once again hahahaha.  I guess I will have to see your boo and raise you another sir haha