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If wrestling was a class sport........

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Here's a question for anyone

Wrestler A - BillyJoeJimBob is a three sport athlete at a 1A school.  Makes it to first round of semistate in current single class system. Could possibly make "small school state" in a multiple class system

Wrestler B - Cleatus takes a beating as a 3 year backup at a large school.  Senior year, Cleatus makes it to semistate where he defeats BillyJoeJimBob, but then loses in the ticket round to an eventual state placer

Ok the question - which of these wrestlers "deserves" to be seen by a college coach?  Given the choice, which wrestler would the college coach rather have on their radar?  Should it be about "fairness"?

My thoughts on this is that the better wrestler should be given the opportunity.  If your goal is to get more hoosier wrestlers on the radar of college coaches, then add another round or two (by adding more mats) to the current state championship.  All under one roof.  Small college programs can view and recruit from the beginning.  Major colleges may want to show up later in the evening for later matches

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The academy training is a huge advantage here.  We have club and our off-season, but many of our younger guys and high school guys supplement it with Red Cobra and Contenders.  We did not have this option at Mishawaka.  It makes life much easier.  

Here is somethint that has not been said yet:

 

Administrative Support.  I loved my AD, Assistant AD, and Principal at Mishawaka.  I barely knew any of my Superintendents. I don’t even remember their names or how many there were.  At any of our competitions, you will see multiple Brownsburg Administrators- Principal, Asst Prinicipals, AD, Assistant AD, and my superintendent has missed one tournament since I’ve been here.  It was for a wedding and he made me promise to send updates.  

This week he text me to tell him when brackets came out on trackwrestling for semistate.  30 minutes later he sent me a list of questions about how we match up with everyone. I have never even heard of anything like this from the top.  

The way they courting me during my hardest time was insane.  I was planning to go coach in another state.  Looking at houses.  He won me over in 10 minutes.  I don’t think people realize how much of an impact he has on Brownsburg in general, especially wrestling.  His name is Dr. Jim Snapp.  I tried calling him Dr. Snapp for months.  Finally, he pulled me off to the side and said, “My name is Jim and you are my friend Darrick.”  

How did we land a Kyle Ayersman?  Jim met with him and I for over an hour. I called him and asked him to meet with Kyle.  We were in his office the next morning.  I’m very lucky.

Snyder 

 

Edited by Darrick Snyder

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43 minutes ago, Darrick Snyder said:

The academy training is a huge advantage here.  We have club and our off-season, but many of our younger guys and high school guys supplement it with Red Cobra and Contenders.  We did not have this option at Mishawaka.  It makes life much easier.  

Here is somethint that has not been said yet:

 

Administrative Support.  I loved my AD, Assistant AD, and Principal at Mishawaka.  I barely knew any of my Superintendents. I don’t even remember their names or how many there were.  At any of our competitions, you will see multiple Brownsburg Administrators- Principal, Asst Prinicipals, AD, Assistant AD, and my superintendent has missed one tournament since I’ve been here.  It was for a wedding and he made me promise to send updates.  

This week he text me to tell him when brackets came out on trackwrestling for semistate.  30 minutes later he sent me a list of questions about how we match up with everyone. I have never even heard of anything like this from the top.  

The way they courting me during my hardest time was insane.  I was planning to go coach in another state.  Looking at houses.  He won me over in 10 minutes.  I don’t think people realize how much of an impact he has on Brownsburg in general, especially wrestling.  His name is Dr. Jim Snapp.  I tried calling him Dr. Snapp for months.  Finally, he pulled me off to the side and said, “My name is Jim and you are my friend Darrick.”  

How did we land a Kyle Ayersman?  Jim met with him and I for over an hour. I called him and asked him to meet with Kyle.  We were in his office the next morning.  I’m very lucky.

Snyder 

 

Wow.. Thanks for sharing, you have great leadership from the AD to the Super... from what is sounds.  You are in a special position there at Brownsburg.

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3 hours ago, base said:

Here's a question for anyone

Wrestler A - BillyJoeJimBob is a three sport athlete at a 1A school.  Makes it to first round of semistate in current single class system. Could possibly make "small school state" in a multiple class system

Wrestler B - Cleatus takes a beating as a 3 year backup at a large school.  Senior year, Cleatus makes it to semistate where he defeats BillyJoeJimBob, but then loses in the ticket round to an eventual state placer

Ok the question - which of these wrestlers "deserves" to be seen by a college coach?  Given the choice, which wrestler would the college coach rather have on their radar?  Should it be about "fairness"?

My thoughts on this is that the better wrestler should be given the opportunity.  If your goal is to get more hoosier wrestlers on the radar of college coaches, then add another round or two (by adding more mats) to the current state championship.  All under one roof.  Small college programs can view and recruit from the beginning.  Major colleges may want to show up later in the evening for later matches

Adding another round or more wrestlers to the state finals will only increase the number of big school wrestlers at state.

The small school kids that love wrestling are the ones that are hurt because at the small school they also need good athletes to fill in spots in all the sports even if they aren't the best. 

On top of that more kids, both big and small, having success earlier in their careers will only help them in many ways. Kids having a little more success, meaning state qualifier or ticket rounder will likely lead to them putting in more time in the off-season. At a small school, this would give the kid a little more reason since they were "so close" the year before, rather than being a regional qualifier. With that the small school kid will also have a little more reason to focus on wrestling more than other sports. On top of that having more success would put kids on a college coach's radar earlier and thus can lead to them realizing wrestling is college is a viable option earlier in their careers. 

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1 hour ago, Darrick Snyder said:

The academy training is a huge advantage here.  We have club and our off-season, but many of our younger guys and high school guys supplement it with Red Cobra and Contenders.  We did not have this option at Mishawaka.  It makes life much easier.  

Here is somethint that has not been said yet:

 

Administrative Support.  I loved my AD, Assistant AD, and Principal at Mishawaka.  I barely knew any of my Superintendents. I don’t even remember their names or how many there were.  At any of our competitions, you will see multiple Brownsburg Administrators- Principal, Asst Prinicipals, AD, Assistant AD, and my superintendent has missed one tournament since I’ve been here.  It was for a wedding and he made me promise to send updates.  

This week he text me to tell him when brackets came out on trackwrestling for semistate.  30 minutes later he sent me a list of questions about how we match up with everyone. I have never even heard of anything like this from the top.  

The way they courting me during my hardest time was insane.  I was planning to go coach in another state.  Looking at houses.  He won me over in 10 minutes.  I don’t think people realize how much of an impact he has on Brownsburg in general, especially wrestling.  His name is Dr. Jim Snapp.  I tried calling him Dr. Snapp for months.  Finally, he pulled me off to the side and said, “My name is Jim and you are my friend Darrick.”  

How did we land a Kyle Ayersman?  Jim met with him and I for over an hour. I called him and asked him to meet with Kyle.  We were in his office the next morning.  I’m very lucky.

Snyder 

 

A perfect storm: a top notch coach, big school in a growing and prosperous area, wrestling-friendly administration and a superior academy in your back yard

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8 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Couple questions.

1. Why in your opinion has class basketball not worked?
2. On that same note why are we not seeing as many people wanting to change the other sports such as volleyball, baseball, soccer, etc?
3. Why do you think Snyder has had more success in a handful of years at Brownsburg than 10ish at Mishawaka? Mishawaka has a far greater wrestling tradition than Brownsburg.
 

 

1) Attendance for the state series dropped by 40% the first year of class bball, with 3 times the number of games. Which meant kids were playing games in front of 1/5 of the fans they did just the prior year. The attendance numbers have dropped in most years since. I know fans aren't the most important thing, but they are a barometer of general interest in a sport and this interest translates to young athletes trying out the sport. We cant count on kids being exposed to wrestling on tv in the way college and pro bball flood our airways. The excitement of the finals in recent years has impacted more than a few youngsters. We have been consistently putting 10k plus fans in the bank for wrestling state, and these numbers wouldn't be sustained in a class system. Despite the roundball being the holiest of holies in IN, our single class tournament has greater attendance than most classes in basketball. How many sports get greater attendance than any class in football in Texas or Florida? Can you imagine another winter sport having higher attendence numbers than the KY bball finals? So to say that our tournament goes head to head in the same season as the grand daddy of Hoosier sports and has as many fans as the final session of basketball (and more than the all lower classes) is really special. We would lose that in a class system.

2) Volleyball classed a number of years ago, but to your point i haven't heard much talk of going back. You dont hear much talk about basketball going back anymore either, but interest has waned altogether and i fear wrestling would suffer the same consequence.

 

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Adding another round or more wrestlers to the state finals will only increase the number of big school wrestlers at state.

FALSE - it would increase the number of wrestlers period - regardless of school size. Some or many could be from small schools.

The small school kids that love wrestling are the ones that are hurt because at the small school they also need good athletes to fill in spots in all the sports even if they aren't the best. 

This need would not change with class wrestling. It is a fact of small schools and it is neither good or bad. Athletes at large schools have the other side of the coin - they are competing for one of 14 spots with potentially a much larger pool of athletes so what if they love wrestling but are hurt because they cannot win a varsity spot?

On top of that more kids, both big and small, having success earlier in their careers will only help them in many ways. Kids having a little more success, meaning state qualifier or ticket rounder will likely lead to them putting in more time in the off-season. At a small school, this would give the kid a little more reason since they were "so close" the year before, rather than being a regional qualifier. With that the small school kid will also have a little more reason to focus on wrestling more than other sports. On top of that having more success would put kids on a college coach's radar earlier and thus can lead to them realizing wrestling is college is a viable option earlier in their careers. 

Are you suggesting that small school athletes focus more on wrestling and abandon other sports (i.e. "specialize")?  I thought this was taboo at small schools and other coaches would be very unhappy if this were to occur?

Edited by Y2CJ41
Format to quote easier

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10 hours ago, Westforkwhite said:

1) Attendance for the state series dropped by 40% the first year of class bball, with 3 times the number of games. Which meant kids were playing games in front of 1/5 of the fans they did just the prior year. The attendance numbers have dropped in most years since. I know fans aren't the most important thing, but they are a barometer of general interest in a sport and this interest translates to young athletes trying out the sport. We cant count on kids being exposed to wrestling on tv in the way college and pro bball flood our airways. The excitement of the finals in recent years has impacted more than a few youngsters. We have been consistently putting 10k plus fans in the bank for wrestling state, and these numbers wouldn't be sustained in a class system. Despite the roundball being the holiest of holies in IN, our single class tournament has greater attendance than most classes in basketball. How many sports get greater attendance than any class in football in Texas or Florida? Can you imagine another winter sport having higher attendence numbers than the KY bball finals? So to say that our tournament goes head to head in the same season as the grand daddy of Hoosier sports and has as many fans as the final session of basketball (and more than the all lower classes) is really special. We would lose that in a class system.

2) Volleyball classed a number of years ago, but to your point i haven't heard much talk of going back. You dont hear much talk about basketball going back anymore either, but interest has waned altogether and i fear wrestling would suffer the same consequence.

 

Volleyball classed the same year as basketball and the other sports(softball, baseball, etc).

You are technically correct that attendance dropped, but in all honesty it had dropped before class basketball. Even in the last single class year it was the second lowest attendance there ever was.

2011 409,000
2008 427,974
2007 456,960
2006 474,881
2005 497,266
2004 475,023
2003 474,088
2002 438,430
2001 457,010
2000 387,710
1999 429,140
1998 434,752
1997 786,024-Last single class year
1996 786,852
1995 812,859
1994 775,670
1993 839,545
1992 861,124
1991: 903,430
1990: 981,395
1989: 965,042
1988: 940,838
1987: 916,872
1986: 946,705
1985: 994,899
1984: 1,036,261
1983: 1,064,987
1982: 1,076,886
1981: 1,064,764

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Adding another round or more wrestlers to the state finals will only increase the number of big school wrestlers at state.

FALSE - it would increase the number of wrestlers period - regardless of school size. Some or many could be from small schools.

Again you fail to look at the PROOF, right now 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools, that will stay the same. If you add 16 new state qualifiers we are still getting 12 from big schools. That doesn't change much. It would be better off to have two classes with big schools getting 16 qualifiers and small schools 8 qualifiers. 

The small school kids that love wrestling are the ones that are hurt because at the small school they also need good athletes to fill in spots in all the sports even if they aren't the best. 

This need would not change with class wrestling. It is a fact of small schools and it is neither good or bad. Athletes at large schools have the other side of the coin - they are competing for one of 14 spots with potentially a much larger pool of athletes so what if they love wrestling but are hurt because they cannot win a varsity spot?

That's a good thing, the kid that works hard and does the right thing will be rewarded for that in a classed system, just like he is in the team sports.

On top of that more kids, both big and small, having success earlier in their careers will only help them in many ways. Kids having a little more success, meaning state qualifier or ticket rounder will likely lead to them putting in more time in the off-season. At a small school, this would give the kid a little more reason since they were "so close" the year before, rather than being a regional qualifier. With that the small school kid will also have a little more reason to focus on wrestling more than other sports. On top of that having more success would put kids on a college coach's radar earlier and thus can lead to them realizing wrestling is college is a viable option earlier in their careers. 

Are you suggesting that small school athletes focus more on wrestling and abandon other sports (i.e. "specialize")?  I thought this was taboo at small schools and other coaches would be very unhappy if this were to occur?

Kids would have a reason to put a little more time than they do now into wrestling, maybe add a wrestling camp or extra training to their schedule instead of another sport. This isn't specializing, just prioritizing.  Small school kids are pulled 12 different directions during the summer by their coaches, having a little added success won't hurt in them seeking additional wrestling training.

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41 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Volleyball classed the same year as basketball and the other sports(softball, baseball, etc).

You are technically correct that attendance dropped, but in all honesty it had dropped before class basketball. Even in the last single class year it was the second lowest attendance there ever was.

2011 409,000
2008 427,974
2007 456,960
2006 474,881
2005 497,266
2004 475,023
2003 474,088
2002 438,430
2001 457,010
2000 387,710
1999 429,140
1998 434,752
1997 786,024-Last single class year
1996 786,852
1995 812,859
1994 775,670
1993 839,545
1992 861,124
1991: 903,430
1990: 981,395
1989: 965,042
1988: 940,838
1987: 916,872
1986: 946,705
1985: 994,899
1984: 1,036,261
1983: 1,064,987
1982: 1,076,886
1981: 1,064,764

Im always surprised by this data and the precipitous drop off.    I just wonder if some stat manipulation.

I did a little research, and saw an article on the Indiana State Finals had there lowest attendance in the two sessions in 2012 which was 22,820.    So if I understand correctly the finals used to be held at Hinkle on Butler campus.   It only held 10,000 people at the time.   So the finals games (granted 4 games) in 2012 worst attendance in class era is still 220% or 12, 280 higher than the best possible attendance in whatever year you pick.   Something doesn't add up.

Is this like the 1000 higher participation rate Indiana had in wrestling this year?  Still would like to see forfeit % compared to prior years.

 

 

 

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Maybe the drop in attendance is due to the fact that there is a lot more to do in 2017 than there was in 1984. People have more entertainment options. The same can be said for wrestling participation. In the 80's and 90's, kids joined high school sports teams because that was what you did. If you weren't varsity, you participated on the jv and were still part of a team. Now, if you aren't varsity, you have a lot of options (internet, video games, etc.) to occupy your time that doesn't include being someone's back up. In an instant gratification/5 second highlight society, this shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

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12 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im always surprised by this data and the precipitous drop off.    I just wonder if some stat manipulation.

I did a little research, and saw an article on the Indiana State Finals had there lowest attendance in the two sessions in 2012 which was 22,820.    So if I understand correctly the finals used to be held at Hinkle on Butler campus.   It only held 10,000 people at the time.   So the finals games (granted 4 games) in 2012 worst attendance in class era is still 220% or 12, 280 higher than the best possible attendance in whatever year you pick.   Something doesn't add up.

Is this like the 1000 higher participation rate Indiana had in wrestling this year?  Still would like to see forfeit % compared to prior years.

 

 

 

Just got the forfeit percentage, forfeits went up....AGAIN. Putting things together tonight for the final release.

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23 minutes ago, Pug said:

Maybe the drop in attendance is due to the fact that there is a lot more to do in 2017 than there was in 1984. People have more entertainment options. The same can be said for wrestling participation. In the 80's and 90's, kids joined high school sports teams because that was what you did. If you weren't varsity, you participated on the jv and were still part of a team. Now, if you aren't varsity, you have a lot of options (internet, video games, etc.) to occupy your time that doesn't include being someone's back up. In an instant gratification/5 second highlight society, this shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

Another under-appreciated fact is the decline of the small public school. The local high school used to be the apple of a small town's eye. Now it is often a town or two away, thus diluting a lot of the pride that existed "back in the day." Some of that pride is even replaced with resentment in some cases.

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52 minutes ago, Pug said:

Maybe the drop in attendance is due to the fact that there is a lot more to do in 2017 than there was in 1984. People have more entertainment options. The same can be said for wrestling participation. In the 80's and 90's, kids joined high school sports teams because that was what you did. If you weren't varsity, you participated on the jv and were still part of a team. Now, if you aren't varsity, you have a lot of options (internet, video games, etc.) to occupy your time that doesn't include being someone's back up. In an instant gratification/5 second highlight society, this shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

Concur.

The google machine says that the infamous PlayStation came out Xmas of 1994!! Tell me some of those little Hoosier FarmBoys that used to go to the Big City to watch the Finals didn't decide to tell Dad "no, I'm good" in '96/'97. Even at that, comparing a 26% drop over 16 years to a precipitous 44% in just 1 year (97-98)..I'm not following the logic. If that isn't correlated to classing hoops, I don't know what is.

Edited by UncleJimmy

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12 minutes ago, UncleJimmy said:

Concur.

The google machine says that the infamous PlayStation came out Xmas of 1994!! Tell me some of those little Hoosier FarmBoys that used to go to the Big City to watch the Finals didn't decide to tell Dad "no, I'm good" in '96/'97. Even at that, comparing a 26% drop over 16 years to a precipitous 44% in just 1 year (97-98)..I'm not following the logic. If that isn't correlated to classing hoops, I don't know what is.

I don't disagree that classing basketball was the main reason for the drop in attendance. But, its possible that the drop was due to a loss of the casual fans...i.e, once it was classed, you only had parents, relatives and students attending those tournament games--maybe because of the travel that is now an issue and not the local guy who attended every sectional since 1972. It was a lot more convenient to attend the tournament when it was local. I would argue that wrestling doesn't get the a lot of the casual fans that basketball and football do.

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im always surprised by this data and the precipitous drop off.    I just wonder if some stat manipulation.

I did a little research, and saw an article on the Indiana State Finals had there lowest attendance in the two sessions in 2012 which was 22,820.    So if I understand correctly the finals used to be held at Hinkle on Butler campus.   It only held 10,000 people at the time.   So the finals games (granted 4 games) in 2012 worst attendance in class era is still 220% or 12, 280 higher than the best possible attendance in whatever year you pick.   Something doesn't add up.

Is this like the 1000 higher participation rate Indiana had in wrestling this year?  Still would like to see forfeit % compared to prior years.

 

 

 

There is no debate societal pressures were pushing down attendance pre class. But going to class didnt counter these pressures it only made it worse. Even the die hard class guys have to recognize that this would deplete the fan interest in our tournament.

Class wrestling has it's good arguments and points i have yet to seen reasonably disputed by any of the never class guys.This is a point however that goes to the no class movement.

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Is it commonly accepted opinion among the "don't class" crowd that attendance at the state finals is a driving force in participation numbers?

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12 hours ago, Westforkwhite said:

1) Attendance for the state series dropped by 40% the first year of class bball, with 3 times the number of games. Which meant kids were playing games in front of 1/5 of the fans they did just the prior year. The attendance numbers have dropped in most years since. I know fans aren't the most important thing, but they are a barometer of general interest in a sport and this interest translates to young athletes trying out the sport.

 

 

Westforkwhite,

Actually you're exaggerating the number of games played under a classed system.   So it looks like they had approximately 400 schools in the basketball tournament in 1996.  So the tournament  with 400 schools, I calculated, would have approximately 350 games.   With a similar amount of schools under the 4 class systems you would have approximately 420 games.  So you're only looking at 70 more games or 20% more, not the 300% more as you stated. 

So why did the attendance drop?   Here's a big reason why and its not because the tournament was less appealing.   In the one class system,  the bigger schools beat the smaller schools signifcantly more often. So the teams that advanced had more fans to bring to the next round.   Im not sure how sectionals were back in the day but, say you possibly had in 1st round Carmel vs Sheridan which was geographically possible.  Compare Carmel today with 5000 kids vs Sheridan with 329.      Whose going to bring more fans next round, Carmel?  And they're 1,500% bigger, so they bringing 1500% more fans.  Its a system setup to favor the big schools, bigger fan bases and more gate revenue for the state.  I would speculate back in the day, Class 4a type schools won the sectional 80 to 90% of the time.

So say we come to 1996,  and put in class basketball.  Now Carmel is playing Ben Davis  in 1st round (instead of Sheridan), the two biggest schools.   Now you have a more competitive game,  but one of the two largest schools is knocked out.  So in the 1st round,  you took out one of the 2 largest fan bases.  These fans know stay home next round.        Also,  yes know Sheridan with their 329 population would play Indy Lutheran with 251 population.   So the difference in 1996 vs 1995 is teams like Sheridan or Lutheran are advancing,  and schools like Carmel and Ben Davis are losing in the 1st round.   You're losing 1000s of fans as a result.  Multiply this affect over 64 sectionals and you're losing a lot fans because the big teams lose earlier, and small teams are advancing further.

So the ISHAA always knew this, and this was good for them because they subsidized their revenue on the backs of the big Indiana Schools and at the expense of the small schools, at least until 1996.  But to keep the fans and schools  from revolting against into this system, they had had to have a hook.  And this  was the "Muncie Miracle"  and they made a movie about it.   Hey, if the small school wins,  then anybody can.   Fans love it but it was an anomaly,  but still burned into the psyche of the Indiana sports fan.  Its like the  lottery affect.  Some Joe hits the multi-million jackpot, then all these other people who are bad at math, think they can do it to. 

 

 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Im always surprised by this data and the precipitous drop off.    I just wonder if some stat manipulation.

I did a little research, and saw an article on the Indiana State Finals had there lowest attendance in the two sessions in 2012 which was 22,820.    So if I understand correctly the finals used to be held at Hinkle on Butler campus.   It only held 10,000 people at the time.   So the finals games (granted 4 games) in 2012 worst attendance in class era is still 220% or 12, 280 higher than the best possible attendance in whatever year you pick.   Something doesn't add up.

Is this like the 1000 higher participation rate Indiana had in wrestling this year?  Still would like to see forfeit % compared to prior years.

 

 

 

I can't say I understand exactly where you're going here, but 1971 was the last year the Indiana  Basketball state finals was held in Hinkle.  It was then held for 3 years in Assembly Hall at IU, then moved to Market Square Arena for 15 years, and then the Hoosier Dome for the "Damon Bailey Game".  Finally landed at Conseco  / Bankers LIfe in 2000.  

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13 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Westforkwhite,

  And this Muncie Miracle.   Hey, if the small school wins,  then anybody can.   Fans love it but it was an anomaly,  but still burned into the psyche of the Indiana sports fan.  Its like the  lottery affect.  Some Joe hits the multi-million jackpot, then all these other people who are bad at math, think they can do it to. 

 

 

Do you mean the "Milan Miracle"?  Jimmy Chitwood of Hoosiers....errr Bobby Plump of Milan?  

My grandpa worked at the Chrysler plant on the Eastside of Indy but my grandma lived in Muncie, and legend had it he could sneak out at first break, make it home to "take care of business" around lunch, and sneak back into the plant by the 2nd break without the boss knowing because he would make his quota.  He was called "The Muncie Flash" because of it but not the Muncie Miracle.  

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16 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

Do you mean the "Milan Miracle"?  Jimmy Chitwood of Hoosiers....errr Bobby Plump of Milan?  

My grandpa worked at the Chrysler plant on the Eastside of Indy but my grandma lived in Muncie, and legend had it he could sneak out at first break, make it home to "take care of business" around lunch, and sneak back into the plant by the 2nd break without the boss knowing because he would make his quota.  He was called "The Muncie Flash" because of it but not the Muncie Miracle.  

I thought I read somewhere the Muncie Miracle because they beat Muncie.    Sorry, I don't know details of Indiana basketball and where championships was played at, as I'm from another basketball state that overshadows wrestling, but my point is the policy of the IHSAA and psyche of the Indiana sports is still being influenced by the Milan (Miracle) game.   Yea,  Jimmy Chitwood the Louden Swain of basketball.

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With all of the National Tournaments and big time preseason  and out of season tournaments, how much college recruiting is actually done at high schools meets and state tournaments?  Is it mainly D2 and D3 schools that come to these meets for recruiting purposes?

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1 hour ago, Westforkwhite said:

There is no debate societal pressures were pushing down attendance pre class. But going to class didnt counter these pressures it only made it worse. Even the die hard class guys have to recognize that this would deplete the fan interest in our tournament.

Class wrestling has it's good arguments and points i have yet to seen reasonably disputed by any of the never class guys.This is a point however that goes to the no class movement.

See my explanation on how bigger schools with fans not advancing is the reason attendance fell.     But,  using basketball fan attendance as a comparison is comparing  apples to oranges.  I think very likely, you would see an upswing in attendance if you classed wrestling.

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