Isn’t That What We Want?

[blueandgold]

Saw a comment in the thread discussing the final Team State votes that mentioned how the Coaches’ Association re-classed the Team State Duals to four classes because they wanted more representation from the small schools and how the large schools were over-represented. So, if it is okay from a team standpoint, why does everyone cry when it’s mentioned from an individual standpoint? Isn’t that what we want?
 

It’s an attempt to grow the sport at a smaller level. Large school competition will always be the same; Perry and Warren will always wrestle, Crown Point and Brownsburg will always wrestle, Cathedral and EMD will always wrestle, and Penn and Portage will always wrestle. None of that changes. However, with new opportunity, the little guy from Benton Central now gets a chance to compete for a state championship more often, and NO, it does not diminish the value in being a champion in any way. Go tell an Illinois kid his 1A title means nothing to the 3A title, and see how he responds when he takes on one of our kids, because all classes in Illinois are still better than our one.

 

Having a single class and telling kids to simply “work harder” will not make this sport grow or make our overall quality better. In fact, it will only drive them further from the sport. The only ways for this sport to grow are through added resources and opportunity. And yes, while everything in our state is equal in terms of opportunity, it is NOT equitable. Some people just need more, and that is OKAY. If three of us are standing on a milk crate looking over a fence, and only two of us can see, why is it not okay to give that one person who can’t see a little extra help so they can enjoy the view too?

Edited December 20, 2022 by blueandgold

[blueandgold]

For any arguments that may be made against, keep this in mind.

[TeamGarcia]

 Just keep it the way it is, it works, tournament(s) location for each class runs well. It’s a tournament that’s grown on me over the years . 
 

Likely Changes…. Move it all into one location. Like it was up in Fort Wayne . 
 

*** My Genius Most Outrageous Idea EVER that will never happen and I know it that why I’m typing it anyways . 
 

Team State adds a Tournament of Champions Dual . Let the Dual Champs of each Class Dual it out for one Champion .  BRILLIANT ! *** 

 

 

[blueandgold]

36 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

 Just keep it the way it is, it works, tournament(s) location for each class runs well. It’s a tournament that’s grown on me over the years . 
 

Likely Changes…. Move it all into one location. Like it was up in Fort Wayne . 
 

*** My Genius Most Outrageous Idea EVER that will never happen and I know it that why I’m typing it anyways . 
 

Team State adds a Tournament of Champions Dual . Let the Dual Champs of each Class Dual it out for one Champion .  BRILLIANT ! *** 

 

 

Mr. Garcia, you know I like you and respect you, and I do understand what you’re saying, but at the same time the current individual format works for people like you and I because we represent those big schools. It doesn’t work for the small schools. We are Central Indiana residents with an abundance of resources and opportunities at our disposal. Nothing for us would change if Indiana adopted a classed individual tournament, but it could be huge for the little schools who need it.

[Fabio Jr.]

We live in a society that likes to “be the best” as opposed to what’s best for the population. If we want kids to get the most matches classes make that happen. The argument you’ll get is that it’s not a “True State Title” 

There is no objective answer that’s right. Each has pros and cons. One is do we want more kids to wrestle and get better or is Prestige more important. I don’t know what’s best but I understand both arguments.

[dawsdad]

1 hour ago, TeamGarcia said:

 Just keep it the way it is, it works, tournament(s) location for each class runs well. It’s a tournament that’s grown on me over the years . 
 

Likely Changes…. Move it all into one location. Like it was up in Fort Wayne . 
 

*** My Genius Most Outrageous Idea EVER that will never happen and I know it that why I’m typing it anyways . 
 

Team State adds a Tournament of Champions Dual . Let the Dual Champs of each Class Dual it out for one Champion .  BRILLIANT ! *** 

 

 

 I agree with Team Garcia on almost all points of his post .  My son wrestled at a current 3A school (there were only 3 classes then ) he wrestled the best teams in the state (current 4 a)  , it was a great experience and helped develop him. When you drive all over the country to these national meets to wrestle the best kids and different styles , why would we want to water down one of the country’s best high school wrestling tournaments?  Wrestlers at their core work to be their best , I guess do you drive out of your way to avoid a hard tournament or do you go to a hard tournament to be your best ? Growing the sport is very important but not to the point of ruining its core values .. 

 

Team Garcia , I am a fan of your tournament of champions , I believe Ohio does that with the individual champs correct  ? 

[TeamGarcia]

33 minutes ago, Fabio Jr. said:

We live in a society that likes to “be the best” as opposed to what’s best for the population. If we want kids to get the most matches classes make that happen. The argument you’ll get is that it’s not a “True State Title” 

There is no objective answer that’s right. Each has pros and cons. One is do we want more kids to wrestle and get better or is Prestige more important. I don’t know what’s best but I understand both arguments.

Look Kids you might see  
Nessy 

 

 
snowman …

 
This guy that’s hairy …
 

 
 

@Fabio Jr. 

 

 
This is a hack ? 
 

@Y2CJ41 somebody got into Nicks account ? 

Edited December 21, 2022 by TeamGarcia

[blueandgold]

4 minutes ago, dawsdad said:

 I agree with Team Garcia on almost all points of his post .  My son wrestled at a current 3A school (there were only 3 classes then ) he wrestled the best teams in the state (current 4 a)  , it was a great experience and helped develop him. When you drive all over the country to these national meets to wrestle the best kids and different styles , why would we want to water down one of the country’s best high school wrestling tournaments?  Wrestlers at their core work to be their best , I guess do you drive out of your way to avoid a hard tournament or do you go to a hard tournament to be your best ? Growing the sport is very important but not to the point of ruining its core values .. 

 

Team Garcia , I am a fan of your tournament of champions , I believe Ohio does that with the individual champs correct  ? 

But is it really watering down? The top schools are still going to be the top schools. Nine of the top ten scoring teams at the state finals last season were all 4A or 3A with a 2A coming in tenth off of the strength of two wrestlers (one of whom transferred in from a 4A school). Immediately behind that 2A team were three more 4A/3A teams with a single 1A team finishing 14th with one wrestler winning and more 4A/3A teams following behind. As it stands, the 1A and 2A teams are never going to beat out the top nine teams ever, and one wrestler winning a title and scoring 26.0 points is not indicative of a 1A team overall being competitive, it just means that wrestler alone is. It’s the same story year after year. Give 1A/2A their own class to bring more involvement and spotlight and I guarantee you we’d end up becoming more competitive as a state overall. Everyone wouldn’t want to just flock to Brownsburg, Crown Point, or Perry to win a championship, they’d stay where they are and they’d be more willing to go out of state to compete at these bigger tournaments with the confidence boost.

[dawsdad]

1 minute ago, blueandgold said:

But is it really watering down? The top schools are still going to be the top schools. Nine of the top ten scoring teams at the state finals last season were all 4A or 3A with a 2A coming in tenth off of the strength of two wrestlers (one of whom transferred in from a 4A school). Immediately behind that 2A team were three more 4A/3A teams with a single 1A team finishing 14th with one wrestler winning and more 4A/3A teams following behind. As it stands, the 1A and 2A teams are never going to beat out the top nine teams ever, and one wrestler winning a title and scoring 26.0 points is not indicative of a 1A team overall being competitive, it just means that wrestler alone is. It’s the same story year after year. Give 1A/2A their own class to bring more involvement and spotlight and I guarantee you we’d end up becoming more competitive as a state overall. Everyone wouldn’t want to just flock to Brownsburg, Crown Point, or Perry to win a championship, they’d stay where they are and they’d be more willing to go out of state to compete at these bigger tournaments with the confidence boost.

All good points but my view is still the same ..Everyone doesn’t flock to Brownsburg to win titles , they go to Brownsburg or programs for opportunities with like minded athletes that want to be the best . The top teams have good youth programs that keep reloading , there are a few exceptions but most good programs build within , youth , middle school and off season programs…. 
 

[blueandgold]

We seriously need to kill this “watered down” narrative. So, the state champions, medalists, qualifiers, and semi-state qualifiers who opted to either go Division II, III, NAIA, or NJCAA all just suck now or compete for watered down titles in college because they aren’t NCAA Division I? If wrestlers’ only option after high school were Division I, you’d lose A LOT of participation. Kids in their minds would think, “I’m not as good as Spencer Lee or Gable Steveson, so I’m no longer wrestling.” Fortunately, that is not the case. That needs to be the same scenario at the high school level as well. Give kids an opportunity to face off against kids they are actually competitive with. Too many of y’all don’t like change simply because you just don’t like change, even when the new outcome has no negative affect on you whatsoever.

[TeamGarcia]

1 hour ago, blueandgold said:

Mr. Garcia, you know I like you and respect you, and I do understand what you’re saying, but at the same time the current individual format works for people like you and I because we represent those big schools. It doesn’t work for the small schools. We are Central Indiana residents with an abundance of resources and opportunities at our disposal. Nothing for us would change if Indiana adopted a classed individual tournament, but it could be huge for the little schools who need it.

Yup, Appreciate your kind words but it’s real simple for me . Just keep it the same . People can rant change all they want . We want this .  It’s just blah blah blah to me . 
 

“Opportunities and resources” I once lived in the Mean Streets of Muncie . I took my sons to the Pal Club to wrestle at . That’s all we had back then in the MSofM . Then I invested in my sons at this sport because as parent that seen Champions in them . So I drove 3 days a week to CIA when they was Cathedral HS for practices . About 1 hour 20 mins one way . Did that for about a year . Don’t miss that drive because at the time I was working in Indianapolis Westside . So I drove another Hour and half to work everyday . Lots of miles .  Finally moved my family closer . 
 

So to me, if you wanna get better go seek out those opportunities and resources at a small schools. Go seek out the best for your kids . If there’s a will there’s a way . 

That’s all I’m going to say .

 

[blueandgold]

5 minutes ago, dawsdad said:

All good points but my view is still the same ..Everyone doesn’t flock to Brownsburg to win titles , they go to Brownsburg or programs for opportunities with like minded athletes that want to be the best . The top teams have good youth programs that keep reloading , there are a few exceptions but most good programs build within , youth , middle school and off season programs…. 
 

They go to those programs to win titles. I come from those programs. My success was a result of those programs. I joined my school’s program to win a team title and I got two rings out of it. Yes, we had that shared mentality, but I guarantee you Adams Central, Bellmont, Churubusco, and Prairie Heights all had the same mentality. We just knew our chances were better than theirs. We had a bigger pool of kids to draw from, all of whom could focus on wrestling with plenty of opportunities available in-house and outside at our immediate disposal, but I bet you can’t say the same for a lot of those 1A/2A kids which is an issue. Plenty of large school coaches are guilty of saying at tournaments, “Oh, he goes to ____. They don’t wrestle anybody.” Which is, in fact, wrong. They do wrestle somebody. We just incorrectly think of them as nothing because they aren’t in the spotlight with us and that is not right or fair to those kids from those teams who I know work hard the same way we do.

[dawsdad]

4 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

We seriously need to kill this “watered down” narrative. So, the state champions, medalists, qualifiers, and semi-state qualifiers who opted to either go Division II, III, NAIA, or NJCAA all just suck now or compete for watered down titles in college because they aren’t NCAA Division I? If wrestlers’ only option after high school were Division I, you’d lose A LOT of participation. Kids in their minds would think, “I’m not as good as Spencer Lee or Gable Steveson, so I’m no longer wrestling.” Fortunately, that is not the case. That needs to be the same scenario at the high school level as well. Give kids an opportunity to face off against kids they are actually competitive with. Too many of y’all don’t like change simply because you just don’t like change, even when the new outcome has no negative affect on you whatsoever.

you are going way off base , we are talking high school wrestlers not college. There are way more factors in a wrestler’s decision on what level they wrestle in college like scholarship money , grades ,dedication (time) , money ,location, coaching , teammates, facilities, education (majors) , Indiana wrestlers do well in college due to the one class system and wrestling the state’s very best at that weight means more than most state’s with class system .. but we will agree to disagree 

[blueandgold]

3 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

Yup, Appreciate your kind words but it’s real simple for me . Just keep it the same . People can rant change all they want . We want this .  It’s just blah blah blah to me . 
 

“Opportunities and resources” I once lived in the Mean Streets of Muncie . I took my sons to the Pal Club to wrestle at . That’s all we had back then in the MSofM . Then I invested in my sons at this sport because as parent that seen Champions in them . So I drove 3 days a week to CIA when they was Cathedral HS for practices . About 1 hour 20 mins one way . Did that for about a year . Don’t miss that drive because at the time I was working in Indianapolis Westside . So I drove another Hour and half to work everyday . Lots of miles .  Finally moved my family closer . 
 

So to me, if you wanna get better go seek out those opportunities and resources at a small schools. Go seek out the best for your kids . If there’s a will there’s a way . 

That’s all I’m going to say .

 

I get it, and while I respect the hard work and commitment you put in for your boys,  it just sounds to me like you had to jump through unnecessary hoops you shouldn’t have had to in the first place for your sons to have the same opportunity to practice with other big schools that I and many others already had. And yes, where there’s a will there’s a way, but you also see the benefits of this method because of the success that came with it. Also, it was feasible for you, but it may not be for others.

[CFleshman]

The only kids that transfer to small schools are for team sports that are classed. Only purpose is to chase a championship. Wrestlers transfer to high end wrestling schools to chase titles. This isn't anything new been going on for years. Some day we will give all kids the same chance at having success.

[dawsdad]

1 minute ago, blueandgold said:

I get it, and while I respect the hard work and commitment you put in for your boys,  it just sounds to me like you had to jump through unnecessary hoops you shouldn’t have had to in the first place for your sons to have the same opportunity to practice with other big schools that I and many others already had. And yes, where there’s a will there’s a way, but you also see the benefits of this method because of the success that came with it. Also, it was feasible for you, but it may not be for others.

I believe that is part of Team Garcia’s and my points , To be great , you have to do great things . The program that we were apart of was built within by dedicated parents and wrestlers , we car pooled taking 6-12 wrestlers a hour away 3 times a week to get to wrestle Asa , Chad Red , Brayton and the list goes on , multiple state champs in the room every night , the other wrestlers did not care what size school you came from either you got better or you would pay the price … Those academy practices were worth every penny and minute spent doing them .. Every wrestler was there to push and get better …

[CFleshman]

That doesn't really help your thinking. I can drive an hour + in all 4 directions and not have the availability of a room with just semi state qualifiers. Let alone multiple Medals and champions. We have kids in the NE part of the state that put the same amount of time in as said group. Just don't have 3-4 different Academies to bounce in and out of like Indy and the region.

[dawsdad]

3 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

That doesn't really help your thinking. I can drive an hour + in all 4 directions and not have the availability of a room with just semi state qualifiers. Let alone multiple Medals and champions. We have kids in the NE part of the state that put the same amount of time in as said group. Just don't have 3-4 different Academies to bounce in and out of like Indy and the region.

There are opportunities available for training that are accessible on weekends for everyone if the dedication is there  .. The mentality of if I can’t be successful then change the rules .doesn’t help your argument . if the desire/support for an academy in that area is great then I am sure one will open .. southeast Michigan and northwest Ohio have places as well as Indiana tech has good wrestlers that offer training opportunities. If you look there are places to train , during the season we couldn’t train at these academies either  we only went to one academy, we aren’t from Indianapolis area ..

[casualwrestlingfan]

Have always said that we should have 4 tournaments and expand the season one month. Other winter sports get to participate in March and Ohio wrestles in March as well. Have a classed individual tournament in mid to late January towards the weekend (Thur/Sat) while having a classed team dual tournament during the week (Mon/Wed/Fri) that's similar to the football tournament but only includes teams filling 8 weights. Then after those tournaments begin the single class team duals during the week and then the single class individual tournament like now but wrestle backs throughout. 

[CFleshman]

5 minutes ago, dawsdad said:

There are opportunities available for training that are accessible on weekends for everyone if the dedication is there  .. The mentality of if I can’t be successful then change the rules .doesn’t help your argument . if the desire/support for an academy in that area is great then I am sure one will open .. southeast Michigan and northwest Ohio have places as well as Indiana tech has good wrestlers that offer training opportunities. If you look there are places to train , during the season we couldn’t train at these academies either  we only went to one academy, we aren’t from Indianapolis area ..

There are plenty of places to  wrestle. I've been around awhile. It's the level of constant practice partners. If we could get the kids in the Ft Wayne area together 1-3 times a week we could close the gap a little. Unfortunately we have an abundance of small schools that depend on athletes to participate in multiple sports. Plus a large number are actually closer to Indy than Ft. Wayne. Again it comes down to opportunities which small schools can't provide. If you think otherwise leave your big school and transfer to a school in a little community and see the difference.

[dawsdad]

24 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

There are plenty of places to  wrestle. I've been around awhile. It's the level of constant practice partners. If we could get the kids in the Ft Wayne area together 1-3 times a week we could close the gap a little. Unfortunately we have an abundance of small schools that depend on athletes to participate in multiple sports. Plus a large number are actually closer to Indy than Ft. Wayne. Again it comes down to opportunities which small schools can't provide. If you think otherwise leave your big school and transfer to a school in a little community and see 

By your logic the schools with the largest enrollment will have the best teams correct ? They have access to the academies and have the resources to be the best .. But based on 2022-2023 enrollment numbers , the ten schools with the highest enrollment are not the 10 highest ranking  wrestling schools …  These schools have 3-4 times the students then most medium sized schools in the state  , Homestead and FW.  Carroll are among the top 30 largest schools in indiana , maybe you can go there .. 

[Brandon Sandefur]

SAW (Simmons Academy of Wrestling is 1hr22m from Angola,IN) according to Google Maps.  The guy that runs the academy is Nick Simmons, Olympian (had to beat Henry Cejudo, prior Olympic Gold medalist to make the team).

 

Fort Wayne has several academies also now.  You can find them quickly with Google.

[aoberlin]

1 hour ago, CFleshman said:

That doesn't really help your thinking. I can drive an hour + in all 4 directions and not have the availability of a room with just semi state qualifiers. Let alone multiple Medals and champions. We have kids in the NE part of the state that put the same amount of time in as said group. Just don't have 3-4 different Academies to bounce in and out of like Indy and the region.

Love ya Chuck. Don’t forget every Monday and Thursday at The Fort we had practices all spring, summer, and up to the wrestling season. There were always State qualifiers, medal winners, and semi-state qualifiers. Those same kids are doing great this year. Heck you helped do the wiring. Not to mention national level camps and clinics. Then live nights to sharpen the last couple months before season started. 

[nkraus]

39 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

Love ya Chuck. Don’t forget every Monday and Thursday at The Fort we had practices all spring, summer, and up to the wrestling season. There were always State qualifiers, medal winners, and semi-state qualifiers. Those same kids are doing great this year. Heck you helped do the wiring. Not to mention national level camps and clinics. Then live nights to sharpen the last couple months before season started. 

It has to be built.   It’s being built.  I know for a fact there’s multiple ISWA state placer winners at the youth level at The Fort every practice.

 

 

I also know Warrior has the same thing.   Both main places in Fort Wayne are drawing from different areas, which is going to work out very well for our semi state in the very near future.   I wouldn’t be surprised to see Fort Wayne with more top 4 placers (consistently) in the near future.  
 

Not to mention area programs with their schools clubs have tried to work around the schedules of the bigger “academies.”

[CFleshman]

7 hours ago, aoberlin said:

Love ya Chuck. Don’t forget every Monday and Thursday at The Fort we had practices all spring, summer, and up to the wrestling season. There were always State qualifiers, medal winners, and semi-state qualifiers. Those same kids are doing great this year. Heck you helped do the wiring. Not to mention national level camps and clinics. Then live nights to sharpen the last couple months before season 

I am not down  grading The Fort or Warrior Elete. The kids hitting these places are working thier butts off. You have provided the opportunities for all levels of kids. As we have talked the the high end wrestlers in our area just don't work out together like the Indy area. The next few years will show what those kids are doing. The Fort is the best place to train in Northern Iniana hands down.