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maligned

3A Team State Qualifying: thru State

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It's a broken system that missed cathedral last year. But it's our system. I don't like to come on here and bash programs and kids. That's a honest break down WS. Keep telling me I'm giving a bias to the region tho

Literally 10 of the first 11 3A teams from the season-ending IndianaMat Top 20 duals teams were invited to the event. Only 3A #7 Cathedral was not--in favor of Chesterton who had 13 starters coming back. You have a high standard of excellence, my friend. It's definitely a broken system in the sense that we don't have an all-in event, but it's not inaccurate in getting deserving teams to the event within the constraints we're given.

Edited by maligned

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You're underselling the Harrison kids.

 

Harrison would get out

Hein at 106- 106 was weak there.

Wade at 113- He pinned the Merrilville kid that got 2nd. He makes the finals.

McCartney easily 3rd

Betourne - makes the final

Ruiz- Beat the champ he at least places

Krintz- Wins 160

Powell- at 182 has a shot

Crider- wins it at 220

Kern at hwy- He has a shot.

 

Interesting that you say that about Highland. Harrison beat them 50 points and you think they're equal with two guys out of the lineup. Give them a little respect. Like I said earlier, not that deep but good on top.

Adrian's system is the system we use. It says you guys are in and you don't have to justify it to anyone. Hopefully you guys get the vote. It's good for the semi state to be represented by multiple areas.

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Harrison will get 11 to E.C. Semi-state, 7  to ticket round, 3 to state, and 2 state placers........I would think that would be a solid Team State lineup....if I'm wrong let me know!!

Using a crystal ball????

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I think you do are great job Adrian. Obvously the ihsaa felt that didn't need this any more and the ihswca stepped up. i only questioned the regional strength and it seems like you got very defensive.

I'm definitely very sorry if I've come across as defensive at any time. I genuinely hope we can go to an all-in tournament sometime in the near future. I also genuinely believe a strong voting body, for example, could do a great job to select all teams. And I really do enjoy thinking through the process to find ways to improve it. I quote the accuracy numbers not to toot my own horn or the selection committee's, but rather in the communal sense of "let's be sure there's something really broken here or let's find the element that's truly problematic before we make a significant change just because it 'feels' off."

I admit I've played my part in dragging out this topic because there's an element of what regional Categories are trying to accomplish that I feel you and a couple others are missing because you think the Categories are somehow an overall quality label in the traditional sense--which they're not. They are designed as one element of allowing the scoring to be as correctly predictive as possible. They will be less so if we use the ideas you and MudFlap have suggested and apply them to how categories are currently used. I've outlined why that is the case but people are still thinking of the Categories as a "ranking" rather than the tool they are. I hope that makes sense. I have nothing but respect for your knowledge and insights on all topics on this forum. Your comments on this thread and every other are always must-read.

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This year they had 10, 4, 1, and 1. They showed up with an undefeated wrestler with 50+ wins who didn't get out. As long as I can remember the Harrison kids come to semi-state with gaudy win totals and rarely get any to state, and now they're getting 4 in 2018? I'm with Mike, they wouldn't be a team I'd invite. Perhaps beefing up the schedule and proving they belong would change my mind. History has shown their 40 and 50 win guys have very misleading records.

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This year they had 10, 4, 1, and 1. They showed up with an undefeated wrestler with 50+ wins who didn't get out. As long as I can remember the Harrison kids come to semi-state with gaudy win totals and rarely get any to state, and now they're getting 4 in 2018? I'm with Mike, they wouldn't be a team I'd invite. Perhaps beefing up the schedule and proving they belong would change my mind. History has shown their 40 and 50 win guys have very misleading records.

You region guys like sticking together.   I know its insulting to have  a team rom Logansport maybe catching up with you.   That cant be right, and you got to get on the board and justify it.   Your opinion.    To bad Lake Central doesn't come down to the "War on the Wabash".   I remember  Harrison putting a few thumpings on Lake Central back in the day.

I'm definitely very sorry if I've come across as defensive at any time. I genuinely hope we can go to an all-in tournament sometime in the near future. I also genuinely believe a strong voting body, for example, could do a great job to select all teams. And I really do enjoy thinking through the process to find ways to improve it. I quote the accuracy numbers not to toot my own horn or the selection committee's, but rather in the communal sense of "let's be sure there's something really broken here or let's find the element that's truly problematic before we make a significant change just because it 'feels' off."

I admit I've played my part in dragging out this topic because there's an element of what regional Categories are trying to accomplish that I feel you and a couple others are missing because you think the Categories are somehow an overall quality label in the traditional sense--which they're not. They are designed as one element of allowing the scoring to be as correctly predictive as possible. They will be less so if we use the ideas you and MudFlap have suggested and apply them to how categories are currently used. I've outlined why that is the case but people are still thinking of the Categories as a "ranking" rather than the tool they are. I hope that makes sense. I have nothing but respect for your knowledge and insights on all topics on this forum. Your comments on this thread and every other are always must-read.

Adrian,    Your numbers are legit, and  the number don't matter to Mike, or at least they don't make the Region look great.   Sometimes objectivity gets in the way. 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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Who's Harrison's last state champ in wrestling? Must have been 70-0, oh wait that's never happened. I was trying to have a diplomatic conversation and stating what I thought it would take, in my opinion, for Harrison to be considered for the team state duals, I never said LC belonged. My personal opinion is that I don't care much for the team aspect of wrestling, but since the IHSWCA goes through the trouble, they should get the best teams. I have history and data to prove Harrison regularly shows up with incredible win totals for their individuals and they mean nothing since only a handful have made it to state over the past 10 years. The truth hurts, I get it.

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Who's Harrison's last state champ in wrestling? Must have been 70-0, oh wait that's never happened. I was trying to have a diplomatic conversation and stating what I thought it would take, in my opinion, for Harrison to be considered for the team state duals, I never said LC belonged. My personal opinion is that I don't care much for the team aspect of wrestling, but since the IHSWCA goes through the trouble, they should get the best teams. I have history and data to prove Harrison regularly shows up with incredible win totals for their individuals and they mean nothing since only a handful have made it to state over the past 10 years. The truth hurts, I get it.

Trying to have diplomatic conversation.   That's funny.   If you  don't care abut the team aspect,  then why do you keep giving your opinion?   I don't really care much about your history either.  I think you made your point already.   Why don't you come up with something  constructive. 

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I give my opinion because it's unbiased, educated, and brings value to the conversation. While I may not care for the team aspect of wrestling, it doesn't mean I can't identify good teams. I said in an earlier post that I felt Harrison was a slightly above average team, but not worthy of an invitation to team state. They wrestle in a weak regional and have huge win total that are often misleading, can anything I posted really be considered off base? My constructive advice is drop the majority of the current schedule and earn your way in by wrestling better competition, it may result in less wins, but will make the team battle tested and give them more credibility.

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You region guys like sticking together. I know its insulting to have a team rom Logansport maybe catching up with you. That cant be right, and you got to get on the board and justify it. Your opinion. To bad Lake Central doesn't come down to the "War on the Wabash". I remember Harrison putting a few thumpings on Lake Central back in the day.

 

Adrian, Your numbers are legit, and the number don't matter to Mike, or at least they don't make the Region look great. Sometimes objectivity gets in the way.

Year in and year out we see the same results. Sports fans has eyes and has been to the semi state. I doubt that changes. I'm sure you keep dragging the conversation on. This is the most anyone has talked about logansport since 4 over 1 topic. What is sad that good wrestlers are being lumped in because you keep trying to prove some point that doesn't need to be proved. 98 percent of the time adian and I agree so I don't think we have a problem discussing this. It seems that you are upset with the conversation.

I hope you Harrison gets the vote in. Then at that point let's come back to this conversation.

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Year in and year out we see the same results. Sports fans has eyes and has been to the semi state. I doubt that changes. I'm sure you keep dragging the conversation on. This is the most anyone has talked about logansport since 4 over 1 topic. What is sad that good wrestlers are being lumped in because you keep trying to prove some point that doesn't need to be proved. 98 percent of the time adian and I agree so I don't think we have a problem discussing this. It seems that you are upset with the conversation.

I hope you Harrison gets the vote in. Then at that point let's come back to this conversation.

I'm just half way annoyed Sportsfangem, keeps saying the same old crap.    Let me tell you something his opinion isn't unbiased.  And I criticize him, and he comes back and says the same thing about the 4th time.   Add something new,   We get it Sportsfangems. 

 

  I don't really care about the Logansport regional and its really not about that.  I'm just pointing out statiscally where Harrrison   will be  legit next year.  Adrians objective system agrees they're worthy of consideration.  Its worth what you think it  worth.   I think its silly to compare Harrison to Griffith, Highland, Calumet.  They weren't that far from Merrillville this year.    If Ruiz was healthy, its a 9 point swing.   They're within 13 points.    That's what I would do If I was rater, I might  look at things objectively.  But that's not my job and never have done it.   But I see where your coming from.   You've been wathching the semi-state a longer than I have.   When I see the EC rankings next year,  Ill feel better knowing how you arrived at it. 

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If the argument is solid and true, why would I change it? You're annoyed because it's true, I can't help you with that. I am very much unbiased, I just like watching good wrestling. In all fairness, Harrison was probably the 5th best team at EC, higher than Hobart but below Chesterton, Portage, Merrillville, CP. even with senior losses all those teams beat them next year, but they close the gap with Merrillville.

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Who said Harrison gets 4 to state???  What does having "a" state champ have to do with Team State??  Turkey Run has had a state champ.....should they be in? I see Harrison getting 3 there next year and 2 past Friday night....not claiming they have a bunch of state placers next year...most likely 2 if things go right!  But solid lineup of ticket round talent,  that makes for a decent dual match team.  Anyone ever hear of the undefeated Miami Dolphins??  Do you know they had the easiest schedule in the NFL that year....know how many playoff teams they played during the season???  The answer is ZERO !!  Just saying it is a possibility that Harrison will make a good showing, the numbers show they deserve a chance!!  Maybe we should talk about Butler basketball......Cinderella two years in a row.....don't think so....maybe they were for real ??? Sometimes people just know too much!!

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...They weren't that far from Merrillville this year. If Ruiz was healthy, its a 9 point swing. They're within 13 points. That's what I would do If I was rater, I might look at things objectively. But that's not my job and never have done it. But I see where your coming from. You've been wathching the semi-state a longer than I have. When I see the EC rankings next year, Ill feel better knowing how you arrived at it.

Gotta disagree here WS, you guys won 4 matches against us this year. I think if we wrestled our post season line ups against each other, the margin of victory may have been a bit more.

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Who said Harrison gets 4 to state??? What does having "a" state champ have to do with Team State?? Turkey Run has had a state champ.....should they be in? I see Harrison getting 3 there next year and 2 past Friday night....not claiming they have a bunch of state placers next year...most likely 2 if things go right! But solid lineup of ticket round talent, that makes for a decent dual match team. Anyone ever hear of the undefeated Miami Dolphins?? Do you know they had the easiest schedule in the NFL that year....know how many playoff teams they played during the season??? The answer is ZERO !! Just saying it is a possibility that Harrison will make a good showing, the numbers show they deserve a chance!! Maybe we should talk about Butler basketball......Cinderella two years in a row.....don't think so....maybe they were for real ??? Sometimes people just know too much!!

This entire topic has taken a turn for the worse. I used harrsion in my comparison. That's unfair to their team. Those guys have put them self in position to be voted in. Good luck to those guys.

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I think you guys try to create a fair system and be as transparent as possible.No system is perfect, but your effort to do the best possible job at picking the teams seems to be underappreciated. 

 

The reality is the top 5 or so teams picked in 3A, 2A and 1A are the top contenders.As you drop much below there you will always have debates.It's like that weird basketball tournament the NCAA holds in March, or the NCAA football playoffs.Wherever you draw a line, there will be teams close to it on either side.On one side they're happy and on the other side they're not.

 

But all of the teams near the line are "deserving", there is no way to tell until they wrestle.  And we can't have a huge round-robin.

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There is only one person who could upgrade Harrison's schedule and make all this conjecture moot and it isn't Wrestling Scholar, On The Rise, Sportsfan or any of the wrestlers with gaudy records, who have been named on here. It's the Harrison Head Coach. As long as he wants to wrestle a weak schedule (rated around 150th) and pile up wins, the Harrison kids will have to be content with records, rather than competition. Harvest Classic Harrison?? Put up or ...

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Gotta disagree here WS, you guys won 4 matches against us this year. I think if we wrestled our post season line ups against each other, the margin of victory may have been a bit more.

Just Analyzying the match.   Harrison was stronger at year end also.  Ruiz was  out with appendicitis for match plus 2 other starters out.   He never was 100% and still beat your Regiional champ.   You got to admit if Crider wrestled at 220 and didn't bump to wrestle Streck at HWY, that would have been a 9 point swing. That's based on post season results.   Delapena moving to 126 might of flipped a win for you guys.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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So if I am understanding the Harrison argument correctly, they want to be rated on a 1a criteria because their kids can't make it out of semi-state. Even though they brought more kids than Hobart,but Hobart got 4 times more to state!

I wish Harrison would wrestle Warsaw.   Wouldn't be an upgrade to their schedule that they need, but I wish they would wrestle them.

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Just Analyzying the match. Harrison was stronger at year end also. Ruiz was out with appendicitis for match plus 2 other starters out. He never was 100% and still beat your Regiional champ. You got to admit if Crider wrestled at 220 and didn't bump to wrestle Streck at HWY, that would have been a 9 point swing. That's based on post season results. Delapena moving to 126 might of flipped a win for you guys.

What other two starters were out for the dual? Don't get all worked up either, I am just trying to have a good discussion. I think you guys are solid and doing good things. As for the dual that happened but didn't happen, this is how I score it:

 

106: Merr 6-0

113: Merr 9-0

120: Harr 9-6

126: Merr 13-6

132: Merr 17-6

138: Merr 21-6

145: Merr 27-6

152: Harr 27-9(This one honestly I feel could go either way)

160: Harr 27-12

170: Harr 27-18

182: Merr 33-18

195: Merr 36-18

220: Harr 36-24

285: Merr 42-24

 

Let me hear your thoughts WS. I think to say we "might" flip a win at 126 is a little insulting. LoL

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What other two starters were out for the dual? Don't get all worked up either, I am just trying to have a good discussion. I think you guys are solid and doing good things. As for the dual that happened but didn't happen, this is how I score it:

 

106: Merr 6-0

113: Merr 9-0

120: Harr 9-6

126: Merr 13-6

132: Merr 17-6

138: Merr 21-6

145: Merr 27-6

152: Harr 27-9(This one honestly I feel could go either way)

160: Harr 27-12

170: Harr 27-18

182: Merr 33-18

195: Merr 36-18

220: Harr 36-24

285: Merr 42-24

 

Let me hear your thoughts WS. I think to say we "might" flip a win at 126 is a little insulting. LoL

I could agree with every weight except 113 and 145.  Based on dual result,  Harrison wins 113,  weight maybe as a major.    At 145  Ill give you a major but not the pin,   but that match is closer.      I see final score  37-28.  I should have said likely at 126, didn't mean to offend.    But Betourne  can be dangerous and think underrated.  

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