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maligned

3A Team State Qualifying: thru State

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This topic is getting off base. It's not about bashing Harrison. I think those guys do a fine job. I would like to see them wrestle more top quality schools. If three are voted in for ihswca that will be great for them. I'm more shocked at the calumet regional disrespect. To say it's only good because of. A couple teams is disrespectful to teams like hobart. So very tough kids with multiple wins over ssq were left at the regional. Cortez lc, szydlo lc lizardi calumet Cervantes Griffith Rivera merrillville karich lake central. Your at a disadvantage coming from a tough regional with the chance to draw a CP Rochester first round.

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There are only four regionals with a higher category than Calumet, do you believe one or all of those regionals (Mooresville, North Montgomery, Castle, Perry) are weaker than Calumet?

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Sorry, I was trying to give responses last night from my phone with no illustrations. Here is another example of how we determine Categories. Notice there's NO AVERAGING. It's a TOTAL of the projected semi-state quality guys from all of the teams added together. This creates the fullest picture of how "crowded" it is to try to squeeze through. You can see how the depth of mid-level teams after the first few create the crowdedness at Castle. However, the top-end talent at Calumet predictably ratchets up the state qualifier and placer numbers the following 2 weeks.

 

CALUMET Regional

ProjSSQualifiers         

11.76   Portage

9.38     Merrillville

5.87     Hobart

4.85     Lake Central

3.50     Hammond Gavit

2.91     Highland

2.67     Griffith

2.64     Calumet

2.02     Hammond Morton

1.73     Munster

1.63     Hammond

1.60     Lake Station Edison

1.58     River Forest

0.63     Hammond Clark

0.34     Gary West Side

0.27     Whiting

0.22     East Chicago Central

0.14     Hammond Bishop Noll

53.73  

This total is then divided by 14 weight classes to yield 4 "deserved" semi-state qualifiers per weight. This equals a Category 4 regional.

 

CASTLE Regional

ProjSSQualifiers         

10.70   Evansville Mater Dei

9.58     Castle

5.76     Evansville Memorial

4.51     North Posey

4.21     Evansville Reitz

4.11     Mount Vernon (Posey)

3.45     Gibson Southern

3.43     Pike Central

3.30     Princeton

3.19     Vincennes Lincoln

2.46     Evansville Central

2.00     Heritage Hills

1.61     Tecumseh

1.57     Boonville

1.50     Evansville Harrison

0.94     Evansville Bosse

0.89     Tell City

0.86     Evansville North

0.46     South Spencer

0.40     Wood Memorial

64.93  

This total is divided by the 14 weight classes and we arrive at 5 "deserved" semi-state qualifiers per weight. That's a Category 5 regional.

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106: Cardwell over Sam Hein (HARR) (HOB PINNED KV :32)

113: Josh Wade (HARR) over Schammert 

120: Triana over Trey McCartney (HARR) (HOB MAJ KV) 

126: Gomez over Cody Betourne (HARR) (HOB PINNED KV)

132: James Strother (HARR) over Lovell 

138: Black overBrock Merkel (HARR) (OUR BACK UP GOT THE FALL VS KV)

145: Colza over Caleb White (HARR) (HOB PINNED KV)

152: Burns over Owen Conklin (HARR) (HOB TF KV) 

160: Guarnero over Seth Younker (HARR) (HOB PINNED KV)

170: Fattore over Myles Krintz (HARR) (HOB TF KV)

182: Ethan Powell (HARR) over Vode (idk toss up)

195: Will Crider (HARR) over Recio 

220: Seth Chrisman (HARR) over Salazar 

285: Donald Crider (HARR) over Moore

 

kv line up vs kv line up

 

It would be one to see, Hobart wins 8 out of 14 just based off common opponent results. Not to mention that our 138-170 like to TF AND PIN KIDS.

Not even close.  1st of all you got to put the right lineup out there. 

My call:

 106   Hobart wins by decision            

  113:  Wade by Pin  over Schamert

120:  Triana by Decision over McCartney-  McCartney would have a shot

126:  Betourne over Gomez by Pin- Betourne ranked in state and ranked In Mikes unbiased rankings

132:  Strother over Homoky by pin

138   Black over Merkel by Pin

145   Colza over Conklin by pin 

152   Burns over Ruiz by dec-  Note both SS ticket rounders and Ruiz beat the Calumet regional champ

160   Krintz  over Guarner by Major Dec

170   Fattore over Younker by pin

182- Powell over Vode by major

195- Crider over Recio by Major

220- Crider by pin over Salazar-Easily

285- Kern over Moore by Pin

 

I calculate total score:   Harrison 48- Hobart 27

 

 

I have Harrison winning 8 of the 6 matches.

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Common opponents Kankakee valley 47-28 win for hobart. Harrison 42-27 with KV giving forfeits in winnable matches at 170,113 giving a swing. So in my rankings opinion yes hobart wins that dual.

When KV was at full strength it 32-21 as go back over the results.

Harrison had one guy out the first match and two guys out the second match against KV.  Also the score was 42-26 not 42-27.   Really only a 3 point swing.        Also common opponent is Highland  Harrison beat them 59-9  and Hobart beat them 60-12.   So using your same rankings logic,  Harrison beat them worse. Would you the rank them higher as a result?

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Logansport only won 15 first round matches at semi-state this year, all others had 30+. 

Now I got Y2 against me.  Its an uphill battle.  And true Logansport is a weaker regional.    But I think were debating that in the team state, they're already handicapped by getting the 3 label status and don't score as much as a result.  

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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There are only four regionals with a higher category than Calumet, do you believe one or all of those regionals (Mooresville, North Montgomery, Castle, Perry) are weaker than Calumet?

Calumet is better regional this year then castle. I think it is more on par with north mont and behind Perry and mooresville

Harrison had one guy out the first match and two guys out the second match against KV. Also the score was 42-26 not 42-27. Really only a 3 point swing. Also common opponent is Highland Harrison beat them 59-9 and Hobart beat them 60-12. So using your same rankings logic, Harrison beat them worse. Would you the rank them higher as a result?

No I don't think Harrison beats hobart. I don't think either belong or would win a dual at ihswca. Common sense tells me the best teams should be there. Since there is no true qualifier and we have teams declining to go. I think there are more variables to look at

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Harrison had 4 of their 10 make it out of the first round and 6 that didn't. Out of the 4 they had 1 make it out of ticket round!

 

Hobart had 6 of their 7 make it out of the 1st round and 4 of those 6 make it past ticket round!

Edited by warsawwrestling

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Hobart and Harrison could compete very well with the final qualifier Penn. Penn has the name, but when you look at their returning wrestlers, weight by weight, they are not imposing.

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Calumet is better regional this year then castle. I think it is more on par with north mont and behind Perry and mooresville

No I don't think Harrison beats hobart. I don't think either belong or would win a dual at ihswca. Common sense tells me the best teams should be there. Since there is no true qualifier and we have teams declining to go. I think there are more variables to look at

Ouch! You do know Carroll will be there. Right? Lmao jk. Maybe Edited by warsawwrestling

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Calumet is better regional this year then castle. I think it is more on par with north mont and behind Perry and mooresville

No I don't think Harrison beats hobart. I don't think either belong or would win a dual at ihswca. Common sense tells me the best teams should be there. Since there is no true qualifier and we have teams declining to go. I think there are more variables to look at

So you think the mathematical evidence that has put them in the scoring range to go to IHSWCA is not legitimate, and Harrison is not deserving.     Please tell me your not on the "committee of power", because were screwed then.

 

On the Calumet regional.  The top wrestlers  are on par with Perry, Mooresville and Castle.  Both those regionals have a significantly higher level of depth and much more difficult to qualify.     The preponderance of evidence shows this.  You have to admit numbers aren't biased.

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So you think the mathematical evidence that has put them in the scoring range to go to IHSWCA is not legitimate, and Harrison is not deserving.     Please tell me your not on the "committee of power", because were screwed then.

 

On the Calumet regional.  The top wrestlers  are on par with Perry, Mooresville and Castle.  Both those regionals have a significantly higher level of depth and much more difficult to qualify.     The preponderance of evidence shows this.  You have to admit numbers aren't biased.

 

Agree 100%, you can't just overlook the depth after the top few teams.  Compare the genius scores of those two regionals, Castle is much deeper in the middle.

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So you think the mathematical evidence that has put them in the scoring range to go to IHSWCA is not legitimate, and Harrison is not deserving. Please tell me your not on the "committee of power", because were screwed then.

 

On the Calumet regional. The top wrestlers are on par with Perry, Mooresville and Castle. Both those regionals have a significantly higher level of depth and much more difficult to qualify. The preponderance of evidence shows this. You have to admit numbers aren't biased.

I am Not on the committee. I still don't see the value and how the lower team from a regional should effect a total score when the stronger team eliminate those wrestlers any way. Then As stated I hav w list of multiple regional qualifiers who have multiple wins over semi state qualifiers so maybe my idea of depth is wrong

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Savage I want to see Carroll in the region more too. Maybe tom Cameron[/quote

 

Is the Cameron the tourney with only one good "Region" team and Penn's JV? If so, that's a weak super dual

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Savage I want to see Carroll in the region more too. Maybe tom Cameron[/quote

 

Is the Cameron the tourney with only one good "Region" team and Penn's JV? If so, that's a weak super dual

Yea

Agree 100%, you can't just overlook the depth after the top few teams. Compare the genius scores of those two regionals, Castle is much deeper in the middle.

Define middle and I disagree with that statement too. The middle of the calumet regional produces state level wrestlers? So I would need to see what you define as "middle"

My vote in would be Perry merdian and Chesterton/center grove. CG hurt by not having littells possible points added

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Harrison had 4 of their 10 make it out of the first round and 6 that didn't. Out of the 4 they had 1 make it out of ticket round!

 

Hobart had 6 of their 7 make it out of the 1st round and 4 of those 6 make it past ticket round!

Hobart did a lot better at semi-state and had a significantly better state team.  They were better at the top.      From a dual perspective this year, its a  little different story.  I minimally made an argument that it would of have  been a very good dual.   Maybe a tossup even.  Based on common opponents and Genius rating,  its close.   No one has given real evidence that it wouldn't be. 

 

So what's the whole point of the topic.  Who has a better "dual" team going into next year?    All other questions and points are irrelevant.      Hobart loses 3 of those semi-state qualifier and the big loss is Black.   He was worth a lot of points.  Harrison doesn't lose any of the 10 semi-state qualifiers.     They got 13 qualifiers back.  Maligned put the math together, and it shows they're legit.     If certain people have a bias towards them just because they come from a certain region in the state, that's too bad.    Im saying the math is on their side.  When it comes to perceptions, maybe not so much.

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Calumet is better regional this year then castle. I think it is more on par with north mont and behind Perry and mooresville

No I don't think Harrison beats hobart. I don't think either belong or would win a dual at ihswca. Common sense tells me the best teams should be there. Since there is no true qualifier and we have teams declining to go. I think there are more variables to look at

Not sure I agree here.  Compare the 4th place finisher from Calumet, N. Mont., Perry and Mooresville.

 

I also think that the Zionsville Sectional and the North Mont regional suffers because it doesn't not have the "Indianamat Presence" as the other 3 regionals in this comparison.  Maybe I'm going to have to up my Instagram presence! ha!  I've stated for a couple years, I'd take the Zionsville Sectional 5th place guys against any other secional's 5th place in a dual all day. 

 

At the end of the day, we will all get ourselves upset if we don't understand that this is similar to seeding a tourney.  We have to have a set of guidelines and then when we get the microscope out and break down all these individual situations, there will be mistake or guys/teams on the short end (or the winning end).  If we want the perfect way to pick teams (or seed a tourney), I'd vote to have an honest guy do it all.  I'd nominate Jim Wadkins

Edited by Ed Pendoski

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Hobart did a lot better at semi-state and had a significantly better state team. They were better at the top. From a dual perspective this year, its a little different story. I minimally made an argument that it would of have been a very good dual. Maybe a tossup even. Based on common opponents and Genius rating, its close. No one has given real evidence that it wouldn't be.

 

So what's the whole point of the topic. Who has a better "dual" team going into next year? All other questions and points are irrelevant. Hobart loses 3 of those semi-state qualifier and the big loss is Black. He was worth a lot of points. Harrison doesn't lose any of the 10 semi-state qualifiers. They got 13 qualifiers back. Maligned put the math together, and it shows they're legit. If certain people have a bias towards them just because they come from a certain region in the state, that's too bad. Im saying the math is on their side. When it comes to perceptions, maybe not so much.

I don't think it's as much of a bias as it is who did they wrestle? Coming from the weakest regional with 10 kids and getting 1 kid through doesn't help that argument.

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Not to pile it on Lafayette Harrison, but I did a little math and their 10 Semi-State Qualifiers came in with a combined 413-73 record, which is a .849 winning percentage as a team, rather impressive.  At the semi-state they went a combined 6-10 for a .375 win percentage and got one wrestler to state. If you remove the one wrestler that actually got to state, they went 3-9 as a team, a .25 win percentage.  I'd also like to add that of the 10 wrestlers, 5 had 40 or more wins, and 3 had 50 wins, which to regionrumblers point proves they have a lot of empty wins.  Ultimately they either wrestle in a weak regional or a strong semi-state, I'll let you decide. I'd like to add that I sat by the Harrison fans and they are into their wrestling and support their kids and have the beginnings of a good program, but I think they'd be a slightly above average dual team and really have no business at team state, I don't think Hobart does at this point either, but they have a nice group of young wrestlers coming up that could easily change that opinion. 

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Not sure I agree here. Compare the 4th place finisher from Calumet, N. Mont., Perry and Mooresville.

 

I also think that the Zionsville Sectional and the North Mont regional suffers because it doesn't not have the "Indianamat Presence" as the other 3 regionals in this comparison. Maybe I'm going to have to up my Instagram presence! ha! I've stated for a couple years, I'd take the Zionsville Sectional 5th place guys against any other secional's 5th place in a dual all day.

 

At the end of the day, we will all get ourselves upset if we don't understand that this is similar to seeding a tourney. We have to have a set of guidelines and then when we get the microscope out and break down all these individual situations, there will be mistake or guys/teams on the short end (or the winning end). If we want the perfect way to pick teams (or seed a tourney), I'd vote to have an honest guy do it all. I'd nominate Jim Wadkins

They have you ED you are a indianamat star too. I feel like you called my coach on me. He is very honest and is t afraid to tell you how he feels. He should represent the region on the vote in committee also he should be represented in the hall of fame Edited by ontherise219

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