fwrestler Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 All this talk about arcane "criteria" sounds a lot like the discussions about the BCS that occur around this time every year... it seems to me like using the past year's results to determine the competitors for the current season's "state championship" will lead to these kinds of problems fairly often. I understand that without the weigh-in exemption there doesn't seem to be any method of using the current season's results to determine who gets to go to the tournament; however, sorry to say it, but there's a problem when a state tournament invites Muncie Southside over Bellmont, regardless of how many kids they had graduate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 All this talk about arcane "criteria" sounds a lot like the discussions about the BCS that occur around this time every year... it seems to me like using the past year's results to determine the competitors for the current season's "state championship" will lead to these kinds of problems fairly often. I understand that without the weigh-in exemption there doesn't seem to be any method of using the current season's results to determine who gets to go to the tournament; however, sorry to say it, but there's a problem when a state tournament invites Muncie Southside over Bellmont, regardless of how many kids they had graduate. I thought you didn't care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I thought you didn't care I don't. That's my son's post, LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I don't. That's my son's post, LOL! haha. OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestleMan Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 All this talk about arcane "criteria" sounds a lot like the discussions about the BCS that occur around this time every year... it seems to me like using the past year's results to determine the competitors for the current season's "state championship" will lead to these kinds of problems fairly often. I understand that without the weigh-in exemption there doesn't seem to be any method of using the current season's results to determine who gets to go to the tournament; however, sorry to say it, but there's a problem when a state tournament invites Muncie Southside over Bellmont, regardless of how many kids they had graduate. That might just be why it is right, because the criteria used doesn't ask if your name is Bellmont, Mater Dei, Perry Meridian, or any other high profile wrestling name. Just the facts and maybe the fact is that Bellmont isn't that good this year. (Good thing the "boo" points are gone. I have a feeling I would get a few over that last comment) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 are you saying that these teams did not earn their spot??? I thought the "invitations" were given based off of performance... I meant that from a Bellmont perspective, it was nearly impossible for the guys on the squad right now to earn their way in. My point was that no team should put the utmost importance into an event where the rules prevented them from qualifying. This is actually the way European football works, although they don't have to deal with graduation. I think the biggest problem is not the selection criteria, but that some people are associating a win in this tourney with a State Championship. Whoever wins this tourney will not be the best team in the state at that class. The closest thing we will have is a football-style #1 ranking at the end of the season. THAT is when the arguments will start, maybe not for 3A this year, but for 1A and 2A when comparing teams with no common opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I meant that from a Bellmont perspective, it was nearly impossible for the guys on the squad right now to earn their way in. My point was that no team should put the utmost importance into an event where the rules prevented them from qualifying. This is actually the way European football works, although they don't have to deal with graduation. I think the biggest problem is not the selection criteria, but that some people are associating a win in this tourney with a State Championship. Whoever wins this tourney will not be the best team in the state at that class. The closest thing we will have is a football-style #1 ranking at the end of the season. THAT is when the arguments will start, maybe not for 3A this year, but for 1A and 2A when comparing teams with no common opponents. I disagree . If Perry Meridian wins this tourney in AAA (Which they should). Who else in the state would be better? Same can be said for Yorktown in AA . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Will not necessarily be* Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 however, sorry to say it, but there's a problem when a state tournament invites Muncie Southside over Bellmont, regardless of how many kids they had graduate. Why is that? We have a rich tradition of wrestling.... We have won the same number of state championships and produce a lot of individual success... I guess our tradition and work means less than others based off of school name alone.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachbum21 Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 I agree with you AJ, the people who are making the statements about Muncie South making it in but not some other school... Are not very informed on the "tradition" of Muncie South wrestling. Several individual state champs along with quite a few national champs over the years. More success at Muncie South than at MOST schools across the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 You guys can say whatever you want about the computers, but anyone that has ever had to wrestle Bellmont in the tournament series knows they are one of the best coached teams in Indiana. They have missed a total of TWO state tournaments in its entire tournament history. How many years now has Yorktown or some other great wrestling school beat Bellmont early in the year, and then lost to them in the tournament? I appreciate the IHSWCA attempts at getting this done right. However, I was dissappointed to see Bellmont not in the 3A tournament, then was furious when I found out they were not even selected for 2A. Show them some kind of respect please. I hope they find ways to correct this issue and make changes in the next year or two so that it doesn't become the BCS of Indiana Wrestling. I think the computer is a great starting point thought! Great teams have great JV wrestlers as well, not just a great Varsity team. Tradition doesn't graduate. Blane Culp Columbia City Wrestling (a rival of Bellmont!) It's not about a teams Storied history , it's about this year . Bellmont would get beaten very badly by at least 6 3A teams in this years tourney. Look what New Palestine did to them . Bellmont was also already beaten by a 2A school as well . Do Bellmont fans really believe they should be in this years tourney ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 This all just comes back to the IHSAA...none of this would be an issue if we could just have a tournamnet like we used too thats the only fair system, have a qualifier and then bracket a tourny...but since they wont allow us to FUND AND RUN our own tournament we have to make these assumptions and not really see what who the best team is....classed or not any type of "selection criteria" will bring doubt. as much as i know this is the closest we get to a team state...i cant help but feel like its just another invitational similar to what ohio did prior to their team tourny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I meant that from a Bellmont perspective, it was nearly impossible for the guys on the squad right now to earn their way in. My point was that no team should put the utmost importance into an event where the rules prevented them from qualifying. This is actually the way European football works, although they don't have to deal with graduation. I think the biggest problem is not the selection criteria, but that some people are associating a win in this tourney with a State Championship. Whoever wins this tourney will not be the best team in the state at that class. The closest thing we will have is a football-style #1 ranking at the end of the season. THAT is when the arguments will start, maybe not for 3A this year, but for 1A and 2A when comparing teams with no common opponents. I think the winner from this event would have a pretty compelling argument that they were the best team in the State in their "Class". I do not think that winning this event carrys nearly the level of prestige that winning an IHSAA State Championship does, and it never will, but it is the best alternative we have at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Why is that? We have a rich tradition of wrestling.... We have won the same number of state championships and produce a lot of individual success... I guess our tradition and work means less than others based off of school name alone.... Until there can be an all inclusive tournament then there has to be some criteria and as long as criteria are used then there will be controversy. I would say that anyone knocking Muncie South being in the event has a problem. Anyone who knows the program knows it's rich history, and witnessed what was a decline for a number of years, but several of the folks at South (Tony, A.J. and others) have worked at it pretty hard and the prograam has made a steady climb back in the past few years so I think them being in the event is both deserved and also a reward for their efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 It's not about a teams Storied history , it's about this year . Bellmont would get beaten very badly by at least 6 3A teams in this years tourney. Look what New Palestine did to them . Bellmont was also already beaten by a 2A school as well . Do Bellmont fans really believe they should be in this years tourney ? Bellmont has 800 or so kids. What in the world are you talking about??? Of course they already got beat by a 2A team. That would be why there is a #1 next to Yorktown's name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Bellmont has 800 or so kids. What in the world are you talking about??? Of course they already got beat by a 2A team. That would be why there is a #1 next to Yorktown's name. Please read the post that I quoted . It states that he was disapointed that Bellmont was not in the 3A tourney . How many kids does MD have ???? They are in the 3A tourney . When it comes to programs like MD and Bellmont for example , you can throw out the enrollment numbers , as both have done just fine against the larger schools in the state . Would it make much sense to throw MD down to 1A or 2A based on enrollment ? Same can be said about Bellmont in most years , they have just been a little down the last couple of years , compared to normal . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Please read the post that I quoted . It states that he was disapointed that Bellmont was not in the 3A tourney . How many kids does MD have ???? They are in the 3A tourney . When it comes to programs like MD and Bellmont for example , you can throw out the enrollment numbers , as both have done just fine against the larger schools in the state . Would it make much sense to throw MD down to 1A or 2A based on enrollment ? Same can be said about Bellmont in most years , they have just been a little down the last couple of years , compared to normal . You got me there. Sorry I didnt read through the quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blane Culp Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 You mentioned they have been beaten by schools already. Yes they have, that happens every single year. I stated that, I know they get beat every single year by Yorktown (I use them because they are #1 and recently beat them) in a early season dual. Now go back and look how many times Bellmont has beaten Yorktown when it counts. All but 1 time! Am I saying the teams that were invited shoudln't be invited?? Absolutely not. But its hard to believe Bellmont, a team notorius for beating teams 2nd times around when it counts, is not there. If I were Yorktown, I would want to beat them in the tourney for the Championship. Shoot, I don't remember the last time Bellmont has beaten them during the regular season. But I only remember once of yorktown beating Bellmont when it counted. That is why it is hard to not put Bellmont in the state tourney! Again I have nothing against Yorktown, they are #1, but I would have loved to see those two teams face off again....like it has happened for the past how many years at Team Regionals. No individual tourney will ever show you how good Bellmont actually is in a team tournament. If you go off of last years results, Bellmont may not ever make it into this State tournament. They do usually lose some quality Seniors. You have to respect what they have done in the last 20 years of the Team State tourney against teams that are better than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 So by your reasoning Bellmont should have an invite for the next 50 years automatically. Is that what you are saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Without some type of JV state tournament it going to be hard for the selection criteria to truly determine the quality of new roster additions each year. As mentioned with the team selection needing to occur as such an early time due to the nature of the event those teams that end having some surprise success will get left out just the same as the team who have a deep JV roster. Nature of the beast, but it really a result of what little leverage in designing the even that the IHSAA has left them with at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Again, it can't be stressed enough how UNUSUAL of a situation Bellmont is in--for themselves and for any team really. First, I've run the numbers for the 3 years prior to now and they would have earned enough points with ease each year for the duals event. That will be the norm going forward for them as they return to their normal performance level. Second, again, they were below their normal level of performance last year (only 6 would have been at semi-state with the old 3-go-from-regional system...has that happened any time in the last 20 years?) AND they graduated 10 starters, which almost never happens across the state. This is a very, very strange situation for them. Let this season play out so we can see that in fact the 8 invited teams are very good and so we can see in February the Bellmont of old prove it belongs in next year's event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Please read the post that I quoted . It states that he was disapointed that Bellmont was not in the 3A tourney . How many kids does MD have ???? They are in the 3A tourney . This is a great discussion. But please do not compare a private school like MD to a public school like Bellmont. Apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toe the Line Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 How can yout compare Bellmont and MD??? They both have restling communities that most schools would love to have and produce great wrestlers year in and if you can't compare them because of the type of enrollment then maybe we should have seperate state tournaments for the private sector kids and then the public sector kids!!! But if we do this then those public sector kids will have to ride in the back of the bus to the meet where ever it ends up being!!! Give me a break we can't compare them!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blane Culp Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Again, it can't be stressed enough how UNUSUAL of a situation Bellmont is in--for themselves and for any team really. First, I've run the numbers for the 3 years prior to now and they would have earned enough points with ease each year for the duals event. That will be the norm going forward for them as they return to their normal performance level. Second, again, they were below their normal level of performance last year (only 6 would have been at semi-state with the old 3-go-from-regional system...has that happened any time in the last 20 years?) AND they graduated 10 starters, which almost never happens across the state. This is a very, very strange situation for them. Let this season play out so we can see that in fact the 8 invited teams are very good and so we can see in February the Bellmont of old prove it belongs in next year's event. Great post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 How can yout compare Bellmont and MD??? They both have restling communities that most schools would love to have and produce great wrestlers year in and if you can't compare them because of the type of enrollment then maybe we should have seperate state tournaments for the private sector kids and then the public sector kids!!! But if we do this then those public sector kids will have to ride in the back of the bus to the meet where ever it ends up being!!! Give me a break we can't compare them!!!!!! Do I really have to explain to you how public schools work and how private schools work? I am not saying private schools need to be separated, but what I am saying is that it is much easier for a private school to go up a division and still compete or win. If you would like me to go into more detail I can. Bottom line is that Bellmont is a small community located in Decatur, Indiana that produces phenomenal wrestlers year and year out. Not a private school located in one of the bigger cities in Indiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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