base Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 As Indiana discontinues it's team championship series, one of the nation's powerhouse states - Ohio - is beginning a team dual championship format. One of the quotes from the press release: "Currently there are 600 OHSAA member high schools that sponsor wrestling for approximately 14,000 student-athletes. By sponsoring a true team tournament we anticipate more youngsters participating in the future." Check out the press release and the format they will use. Could it work in Indiana? http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/2011/LetterRegardingTeamTournament.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Pennsylvania -- arguably the best wrestling state in the country. Yeah, they do a team tournament in one week during the middle of their season. First round is on a Monday, finals are on a Saturday. Rules: http://www.piaa.org/assets/web/documents/2011_TW_Memo.pdf More info, including last year's brackets: http://www.piaa.org/news/details.aspx?ID=2142 Come on IHSAA, Indiana athletic directors and coaches. This CAN BE DONE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 This is a sad moment in Indiana High School Wrestling. No team tournament. Base, you are correct. The powerhouses can do it but Indiana can not. I will never understand how people dont get it. Are we really going to go ahead and just say it-we dont care if a team is the best team, The STATE CHAMPS-we only care if a team, I mean school, can build the best 4 or 5 guys. 1 old, although your thoughts are noble to the old school system-its just not correct. If wrestling has no team aspect to it why even crown a state championship team? Why wrestle duals? Why does the Perry/Cathedral dual bring more fans than the finals of the Marion County tournament? I could go on and on about how positive a TEAM event is for a school, the sport and a community. I really am not interested in the tired old bull that only a few teams can make it. I am glad we did not feel that way when Beech Grove(1/3 of our size school) beat our behinds for 6 straight years or when Roncalli(1/2 our size) whipped up on us at the sectional for 4 straight years. Both small schools, especially Beech Grove, and both have been to team state. I could go on and on but I just want the future team that wins state to get on here and talk about how much fun they had with their team the night they were proclaimed the high school state champs and nobody from their team was even around to know it. Better yet, when the coach calls his 132 lber who is at the movies with his girlfriend and says, hey, Billy Bob jr, we just won state and the kid says, Coach, leave me alone, I am at a great movie with a hot chick and I might get past first base tonight. Oh, sorry kid-I thought you might wanna know!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekocottonball Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Yep, I gonna stir the pot! So, our feminist groups are always willing to sue schools, school districts and colleges at the drop of a hat over Title IX. This would seem like a textbook discrimination issue to me. I bet many girls sport state finals lose a bunch of money and that is fine. But a guys sport just breaks even and they kill our Team State?!? So, why isn't the IHSWCA suing the IHSAA over the removal of Team State? With all the states that DO have a Team State, seems like a clear case of the IHSAA discriminating based upon gender (boys) that is out of compliance with national standards. Or how about file a federal complaint with the Dept of Education Civil Rights division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 There has been a team state champ nearly every year from 1932 until 1995 without a team dual tournament and it was done to prove who did best at the individual state tourney, with their indiviuals... Then some wise guy gets the idea that wrestling is a team sport! What? This sport isn't played with one ball... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 For all the people that say wrestling is not a team sport . I would suggest going to a Perry/Cathedral , Mishawaka/Penn, Merrillville/CP or a MD/Rietz dual . You would think there is a football game going on when you see the amount of cars at a Mish/Penn dual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 There has been a team state champ nearly every year from 1932 until 1995 without a team dual tournament and it was done to prove who did best at the individual state tourney, with their indiviuals... Then some wise guy gets the idea that wrestling is a team sport! What? This sport isn't played with one ball... I could swear their are a bunch of guys from the same school, that roll around together no less than 5 days a week together, and make each other better by pushing and practicing together, and they even call themselves teammates.....Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Are we really going to go ahead and just say it-we dont care if a team is the best team, The STATE CHAMPS-we only care if a team, I mean school, can build the best 4 or 5 guys. Isn't that how we determine National Championships in college? Who has the best 3-4 guys? You get 2-3 high AA's and you finish in the TOP 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 From this very same page of comments: Not exactly. For starters, NCAA's has full wrestlebacks. This allows for more opportunities for individuals to score team points. Plus, it's a more accurate way for determining placements. Which is also important when accruing team points. Second, most of the top teams qualify 80-100% of their individuals to NCAA's. Here in Indiana, the elite teams often times qualify "just" 5-6 individuals to state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 For all the people that say wrestling is not a team sport . I would suggest going to a Perry/Cathedral , Mishawaka/Penn, Merrillville/CP or a MD/Rietz dual . You would think there is a football game going on when you see the amount of cars at a Mish/Penn dual. You need to get Yorktown in there somewhere also. Maybe all of these teams mentioned needs to put on their own tournament and have a traveling trophy to pass around between them all. That's all this tourament amounts to anyhow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 We have seen several occasions now where the "Coaches Trophy" winner and runner-up (most points in individual state) did even make the Team State Championship match or even Final 4. So I'm no sure what you would need to call the Individual State Championship school point winner exactly, but kind of hard to call it a Team State Championship when we have seen the individuals don't produce a true team result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 We have seen several occasions now where the "Coaches Trophy" winner and runner-up (most points in individual state) did even make the Team State Championship match or even Final 4. So I'm no sure what you would need to call the Individual State Championship school point winner exactly, but kind of hard to call it a Team State Championship when we have seen the individuals don't produce a true team result. Go to the IHSAA page and see what they called the Coaches Trophy winner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 You need to get Yorktown in there somewhere also. Maybe all of these teams mentioned needs to put on their own tournament and have a taveling trophy to pass around. That's all this tourament amounts to anyhow! Since the majority of most wrestlers from any given team dont even make it far enough to wrestle in the State Individule Tourney it's a shame in my opinion 3-4 guys wins it for a team, while their teammates may not even be there watching or wrestling at the tourney...Just My Opinion!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 The Team State Tournament lasted sixteen years and in them sixteen years there were only 5 different team champions. That's not good odds... Who wants to jump into that card game? Two years ago Jimtown won their sectional after a long drought and man that was pretty neat until we all realized, "@&^%$# we got to wrestle Mishawaka now in the team regional"! So I think I'd like the odds of having a few good guys make it to state and see how it works out in the Coach's Trophy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 in sixteen years there were only 5 different team champions. That's not good odds... Who wants to jump into that card game? Awesome quote and couldn't agree more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signal34 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yea great quote. How about this one. They should restructure how they score girls swim state because it's not fair that Carmel girls swim team has won state 16+ years in a row. Better yet let's just cancel it because nobody else has a chance to win it. Oh and if your a 5a school and not from the MIC in football you should just quit because chances are your not going win state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 From this very same page of comments: The answer still isn't good enough. Who cares how many you qualify, only your studs are going to score points and you only need a couple at the collegiate level to be in the running for a championship. How many people complain about an individual format deciding conference and sectional championships? Not very many. You can argue that teams have all their guys there, etc. But its still not the same as a head to head dual. Jimtown138 has it right. At least more teams will be in the running now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yea great quote. How about this one. They should restructure how they score girls swim state because it's not fair that Carmel girls swim team has won state 16+ years in a row. Better yet let's just cancel it because nobody else has a chance to win it. Oh and if your a 5a school and not from the MIC in football you should just quit because chances are your not going win state. When did Fishers join the MIC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I'd be slightly more happy with the individual tourny determining the state team title if the IHSAA carried the point over from round to round. Yes, there would still be some discrepancies in scoring due to alignment, but less than just counting those to make it to state and saying that's for a team championship. At least the you can say everyone entered had a shot at contributing to the total not just Starting from scratch with those few that made state. Other sports can advance the team along, but since wrestling can't advancing the score is the next best solution to that. Those teams where several wrestlers winning a few semi-state matches should be recognized as one of the better teams in state just as much as a team where only three kids make it to state while the rest went out early in sectional/regional. I'm guessing out advanced computer technology could handle that adjustment to the system. Plus if one of the big selling point for removing the team part was to ensure more teams had a shot at success I would think going back to a smaller sectional alignment would be the next IHSAA move. That would allow for more teams/individuals to be winners and runner-ups which gives more school recognition. But that would be if one of the main reasons for ending the team event was actually to give more schools a chance at success instead something that sounds good to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The answer still isn't good enough. Who cares how many you qualify, only your studs are going to score points and you only need a couple at the collegiate level to be in the running for a championship. How many people complain about an individual format deciding conference and sectional championships? Not very many. You can argue that teams have all their guys there, etc. But its still not the same as a head to head dual. Jimtown138 has it right. At least more teams will be in the running now. Is it really better to just crown a team champion when they are not the best team? Just because you win something do to what really is a flawed system does it really mean anything? If you get beat during the season in a dual and win the state title because of a flawed system does it really mean that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Is it really better to just crown a team champion when they are not the best team? Just because you win something do to what really is a flawed system does it really mean anything? If you get beat during the season in a dual and win the state title because of a flawed system does it really mean that much? You are right any team that wins the new and improved team state probably won't celebrate their accomplishment. They will most likely shun the "fake" state title and not accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 You are right any team that wins the new and improved team state probably won't celebrate their accomplishment. They will most likely shun the "fake" state title and not accept it. They would and should celebrate it. That doesn't mean that it isn't a flawed system that gives a chance for a team that isn't the best to win a championship for the best team. You don't play a 2 on 2 tournament to decide the best NBA team. Just because a team is happy to win it doesn't mean it isn't a flawed system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 They would and should celebrate it. That doesn't mean that it isn't a flawed system that gives a chance for a team that isn't the best to win a championship for the best team. You don't play a 2 on 2 tournament to decide the best NBA team. Just because a team is happy to win it doesn't mean it isn't a flawed system. The current system is flawed, but we should keep it? The coaches association had plenty of warning this was going to happen, yet decided to sit back and watch it go away. No forward planning or thinking even though just about every meeting they had with Bobby Cox included a warning that team state was in jeopardy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zachpierson Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I guess I am part of the "lucky" 30 teams that had a chance at a TEAM state championship. So I don't see how the new/old system is better for wrestling. Can someone please explain it to me? I feel the more kids you have interested in the sport the better right?Why did they change from the old/new system in the first place? Does anyone know? I just am having a hard time wrapping my head around what some of u are saying. Have you guys that say we never have a chance to make it to state still celebrate a dual meet victory? I don't see how you could I mean you don't have a chance to make it to state. What does beating a team in a dual meet do for you? All you should care about is if YOU win right? I mean after all this is an individual sport right? So anyone that can explain it to me without saying well we didn't have a chance to make it or anything along those lines I'm all ears if that's your only point to the argument then please keep that tired excuse to yourself! How about in a dual meet we don't get bonus points at all just 1 point if u win cause that's all that matters. That way the coaches don't have to waste time on mat strategy or fighting off your back. I mean who cares if u get dominated and pinned u didn't have a chance to make it to state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I will try to help you out. I guess I am part of the "lucky" 30 teams that had a chance at a TEAM state championship. So I don't see how the new/old system is better for wrestling. Can someone please explain it to me? How is the old system good for wrestling? The new system will give more teams a shot at regional/semi-state/state titles. More teams with a chance to win always tends to make those levels more exciting for the kids and the fans. I feel the more kids you have interested in the sport the better right? Of course, the more the merrier. Why did they change from the old/new system in the first place? Can't really answer that, I was in the midst of my elustrious high school wrestling career at that time. Does anyone know? I am sure some of the older guys would know. I just am having a hard time wrapping my head around what some of u are saying. Have you guys that say we never have a chance to make it to state still celebrate a dual meet victory? I don't see how you could I mean you don't have a chance to make it to state. Winning a random dual throughout the season doesn?t translate into not being able to make it to state. Every team ?has a chance to make it to state,? but the reality is most know before the season how good their chances are. Here is an example for you from a small school perspective. When you are at a small school have a lot more peaks and valleys in terms of talent in athletics in the school. This not only goes for wrestling, but all the sports. In a single class system you must hope for that peak to be at a time where not only you have a good team, but other teams must also be down somewhat for you to sneak a title in. In 2004 we had a team that was tough as nails and 20-1 during the season with our only loss to Columbia City(top 4 in the state that year). This was a special team where we had 13(not a full lineup) kids that were solid from top to bottom. We beat some solid teams that year and it was a very special year. We ended up 3rd in our sectional and even if we would have made it to team regional we would have been whooped by Columbia City again. If we would have had that team a couple years ago we would have won sectional and been fighting for a spot at team state. Unfortunately, it was the wrong year to have a very good team. Again in 2009 we were poised to have another very special team. We knew ahead of time that up and down the line-up we would have solid wrestlers mixed in with a few very good ones. We were lucky in that it seemed everyone would be spread out amongst the weight classes and we might have had a couple small holes in the lineup. We also knew that the other good teams in the area were going to be somewhat down that year and we had the makings of a great season. Unfortunately, early in the season one kid was dismissed from the team for athletic code violations and another had to have shoulder surgery. We lost two very good wrestlers and had to replace them with vastly inferior replacements and our hopes were dashed. We had a great season and even with another injury were 8 points from our first sectional title. The point of those two examples is that at a small school there MUST be a perfect storm for them to have a special season. If one piece to the puzzle is missing however, the whole season can be affected. At a bigger school your peaks and valleys are less significant and when you lose a wrestler(injury, suspension, etc) it is easier to replace him with a wrestler that can hold his own. What does beating a team in a dual meet do for you? It gets us a dual meet win and if it is a conference dual one step closer to a conference tournament. All you should care about is if YOU win right? In reality yes, a single kid can only wrestle one match. If they win their match they are doing their part in a dual. I mean after all this is an individual sport right? Yes. So anyone that can explain it to me without saying well we didn't have a chance to make it or anything along those lines I'm all ears if that's your only point to the argument then shut up! How about in a dual meet we don't get bonus points at all just 1 point if u win cause that's all that matters. That way the coaches don't have to waste time on mat strategy or fighting off your back. I mean who cares if u get dominated and pinned u didn't have a chance to make it to state. Settle down there, take a deep breath and count backwards from 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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